Project: Edward III descents past gen 5
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Edward III descents: part II of the project
This page tries to list results from another working first project page. One aim of that first page is to define clean-up work for those first 5 generations from Edward, as a better base for genealogists to link to more modern generations. That will be on-going work.
Further generations are discussed in a compressed way below but can be folded out on yet more project pages: Lionel of Antwerp descendants past 5 generations (includes not only the Lionel table below, but Percy, Kent, Essex and York).
On this page a clean listing is attempted of known Edward III descents starting from the 5th generation. The aim is to help genealogists link proper lines to modern families. Discussion of people in the 5th generation who need more study is for the first webpage.
Current formatting idea: each asterisk (including the bullets) should count for one 5th generation descendant of Edward III who had issue and possibly has modern descendants.
Complication: a way should be found to avoid double counting and double work arising from the marriages between different tables. When we go past 5 generations, many of these families marry each other.
Looking ahead to that problem:
- An attempt has been made to re-order the people below compared to the "messy" working page, according to a strict ("non sexist") primogeniture.
- For each person in this list, an attempt is being made to look forward some generations looking for the type of work that will need to be done to go further.
By having a rule that structures what sequence these are in, we can perhaps avoid double work by also deciding on rules about which line to handle overlapping branches in.
(For example, we can choose always to handle them in the line with the highest primogeniture rank.)
Isabella was Edward III's oldest child with descendants. Her grand-daughter, Jeanne de Bar (4th gen from Edward) had a de Luxembourg family which is incomplete in Wikitree. Genealogics, MEDLANDS. Here is a list of her children in the 5th generation from Edward III, who apparently have modern descendants:
- Jacqueline de Luxemburg. MEDLANDS and Genealogics (2 links above) agree she married Philippe I de Croÿ, Seigneur de Croÿ et d'Araines. No children in Wikitree yet, but many descendants in Belgian region.
- Helene de Luxembourg. MEDLANDS and Genealogics (2 links above) agree she married Janus de Savoie, Comte de Faucigny and they had Louise de Savoie (6th gen, not in Wikitree). Louise married twice and had 1s to second husband (7th gen, parents are in Wikitree), who has descendants and is not in wikitree.
- Pierre II de Luxembourg. MEDLANDS and Genealogics (2 links above) name the same 5 children, 3 died young. The other 2: Marie had children from 2 husbands. Françoise m Phillip von Kleve (see Phillipa table, also 5th gen descendant of Edward III) but maybe no issue from her. MEDLANDS adds one illegit. daughter, Charlotte, m. Phillipe d'Estavayer co-Seigneur d'Estavayer. Wikipedia.
- Charles de Luxembourg MEDLANDS: "Canon at Köln Cathedral 1455. Deacon at Laon Cathedral 1463. Bishop of Laon, pair de France 1473. Charles had two illegitimate children by an unknown mistress or mistresses:" Genealogics does not name them, but MEDLANDS says François de Luxembourg Seigneur de Bornival, and Charles.
- Antoine de Luxembourg has been added to Wikitree. Children from several wives. See the MEDLANDS and Genealogics links mentioned above.
This line deserves some effort from someone able to research early modern continental aristocracy.
Lionel of Antwerp table
Lionel was Edward III's oldest son (as opposed to child) to have surviving descendants, and so his line is often studied. Several of the following tables (Percy, Kent, Essex, York) handle other lines of descent from Lionel. This table: Lionel -> Phillipa (m Mortimer) -> Elizabeth (m "Hotspur" Percy) -> Elizabeth Percy, gen 4 (m John Lord Clifford)->
- Thomas Clifford. Genealogics. Followed RA V.2. p.246 under CLIFFORD 15. m. Joan Dacre) 4s 5d: John, knt (CLIFFORD 16), Roger, knt (m. Joan Courtenay see SOMERSET 11.iv.d; Courteney table in this project; grandchildren not in WT). Robert, knight wife and family partly added, Thomas, knight, (Genealogics and Wikitree say no children), Eliz (m Wm Plumpton see PLUMTON 10, and John Hermton PLUMTON 14), Maud (see SUTTON 8 for husbands John Harington and Edmund Sutton/Dudley), Anne (m. Rich Tempest and Wm Conyers), Genealogics says no issue and gives 3rd husband, Joan/Jane (m Simon Musgrave), Marg (m Robert Carr).
- Mary (Clifford) Wentworth. RA: NETTLESTEAD 16. RA 4 p.218 says 1s (Henry), 2d (Marg, w Th Cotton, and Eliz). Genealogics
Followed further on Lionel of Antwerp descent page
See Ruvigny, Percy-Mortimer volume, Part 1 online. Henry Percy (the 2nd Earl of Northumberland and son of "Hotspur") was also a grandson of Lionel, making this table 3rd in terms of primogeniture. His wife was a daughter of Jean Beaufort. These children of his are 5th generation in 2 ways and are the ones who can be taken further so far:
- Henry Percy KG RA PERCY 15 m Maud Herbert 4s Henry Algernon Percy, Wm knt, Alan (cleric), Joscelin ; 3d Eleanor (m STAFFORD 13), Anne (m William 18th Earl Arundel, Elizabeth. OVERLAPS, include: Henry Algernon's wife is 5th gen in the Edmund Beaufort table.
- Margaret (Percy) Gascoigne RA says m William Gascoigne (RA GASCOIGNE 17). 6s Wm knt, Hen, Th, Hen again, Jn, Th again; 7d Marg (m Ral Ogle), Eleanor, Maud, Joan, Eliz (m Geo Tailboys TAILBOYS 17), Ann/Agnes (m Th Fairfax FAIRFAX 16), Dorothy (m Ninian Markenfield MAULEVERER 15. OVERLAP. William is son of Jane Neville gen 5 in Ferrers table.
- Elizabeth (Percy) le Scrope RA says m Henry Scrope Knt, 6th Lord Scrope of Bolton. RA TIBETOT 13 says 4s John (m 3 times), Rich (TIBETOT 14), Ralph (archdeacon), Rob esq. 4d Eliz (m 3 times), Marg (m 3 times), Agnes (m Christopher Boynton and Rich Ratcliffe KG), Eleanor (nun)
- Mary (Hungerford) Sacheverell RA says she m twice: Edward Hastings (2s George HUNTINGDON 16, and William, 1d Anne m STANLEY 17) and Richard Sacheverell (no issue). (See HUNTINGDON 15)
Followed further on Lionel of Antwerp descent page
The Grey Earls of Kent come next in absolute primogeniture because the first Earl Edmund (a descendant of Edward through John of Gaunt himself) married the younger sister of Elizabeth and Henry Percy.
At 5th generation several descendants of Edward III are also connected to other tables, Elizabeth (Grey) Greystoke's husband is from the Joan Beaufort Ferrers table; Anne Grey in John Beaufort II table. 5th generation who clearly have modern descents:
- COUPLE Elizabeth Grey, was first wife of 2 (and only one with child) of Robert Greystoke RA GREYSTOKE 15, 5th gen Ferrers table in this project. They had 1d Eliz who m DACRE 16 and 2s, 6d. HANDLE IN THIS SECTION?
- COUPLE. Anne Grey (see RA GREY 13) m John Grey (gen 5 Henry IV table, RA WILTON 14). RA says 6s Reginald, Edmund knt (9th Lord Grey of Wilton), John, Richard (cleric), Peter, and Edward; 3d Jane (m Walter/Watkin Vaugh), Katherine (m Thomas Rotherham knt) and Tacy (m John Gyse/Guide esq of Elmore, Gloucestershire (HAVILAND 19). Genealogics only shows descents through son Sir Edmund de Grey, 9th Baron Grey de Wilton (RA WILTON 15).
- George Grey. RA V.3 p.133 says 2 wives. 1s Richard to Anne Wydeville; 3s 1d to Katherine Herbert (Hen, Geo, Anth, Anne m. John Hussey). Richard on p.134 no issue w 2 wives.
(Tacy Grey is currently George's da. but her parents should prob. be John Grey, Knt., 8th Lord Grey of Wilton and Anne Grey, George's sister. This puts her in the Beaufort table on first webpage. That is also where RA puts her, under WILTON. See John Beaufort II table on this webpage.)
Followed further on Lionel of Antwerp descent page
Richard of Conisburgh (gen 1), son of Edmund of Langley, comes next. This is not because of his male line, the House of York, but because of his wife Anne Mortimer who was another grand-daughter of Lionel (so she was gen 4). The first born child with descendants was also not their son Richard who was Duke of York, but their daughter Isabel. Lionel -> Phillipa (m Mortimer) -> Roger Mortimer -> Anne Mortimer (m Richard of Conisburgh) -> Isabel (m Henry Bourgchier the 1st Earl of Essex) ->
Looking for example at Cracroft, and considering what happened to the important inheritances of this line, it looks like the only 5th generation people with the possibility of descendants is:
Followed further on Lionel of Antwerp descent page
Lionel -> Phillipa (m Mortimer) -> Roger Mortimer -> Anne Mortimer (m Richard of Conisburgh from Langley table) -> Richard Duke of York (m Cecily Neville from Neville table) ->
The famous dynasty were descendants of Richard the Duke of York, who was a younger brother to Isabel Bourchier. He was a great grandson of Edward III, so 3rd generation from him. His own 5th generation grandchildren with descendants so far, and not handled in other tables:
The illegitimate children of Richard's son King Edward IV (gen 4):
- Arthur Plantagenet RA V.5. p.469 says 2 wives but issue only from first: Elizabeth Grey baroness Lisle d of Edward see COVERT 6.i (3d Frances, Eliz, Bridget).
- Elizabeth (Plantagenet) Lumley RA V.5. p.469 says 4s Richard Lord Lumley, Jn, Geo, Rog, ; 3d, Anne (m Robert Lord Ogle), Sibyl (m Wm Hilton knt de jure Lord Hylton), Eliz (m Rob Cresswell esq)
And Richard's legitimate grandchildren with descendants:
- Elizabeth of York. OVERLAP. m Henry VII John Beaufort II table. (Elizabeth actually had the better claim to royalty.) All legitimate modern descents of the couple are through daughters Margaret and Mary.
- /Margaret Tudor m King James IV of Scotland, son of King James III. She also has descendants with Archibald Douglas (not a descendant of Edward III himself) and all their descendants are via their daughter and a Stewart Earl of Lennox who was a fellow descendant. So Margaret's descendants are also descendants of the Jane Stewart table. HANDLE IN WHICH TABLE?
- /Mary Tudor's children were all with her 2nd husband the Duke of Suffolk, Charles Brandon. Descendants are all via their two daughters (7th gen) who both m Edward III descendants: Frances (m Henry Grey) and Mary (m Henry Clifford). Genealogics.
- /There was also possible an illegitimate son of Henry VII to an unknown mother, Roland Veleville alias Britanny. He m Agnes ferch Gwilym Fychan ap Gwilym and they had two daughters. Move to John Beaufort II table because not a son of Elizabeth.
- Catherine (York) Plantagenet RA V.2 p.335 COURTENAY 10.i.a. 2s Henry KG m Eliz Grey Lady Lisle, Edward (wikitree seems to show dubious family); 1d Margaret m Hen Somerset 2nd Earl Worcester
- Anne (St Leger) Manners m George Manners RA V4 p24 MANNERS 11, RA V.4 p.24 says 5s Thomas KG, Oliver, Anth, Rich knt, John ; 6d Anne (m Hen Capell knt), Eleanor (m Jn Bourchier knt, 2nd Earl Bath), Eliz (m Th Sandys Lord Sandys), Kath (m CONSTABLE 19), Cecily, Marg (m Henry Strangeways knt & Rob Heneage).
- Margaret daughter of George Duke of Clarence. See Ruvigny's Clarence volume. m. POLE 17 V.4. pp.397-400 says 4s (Henry, Arthur, Reginald, Geoffrey), 1d (Ursula)
- Richard (Pole) de_la Pole. Has descendants through a daughter Marguerite (RA V.2. p.428-9) m Sibeud de Tivoley. 3s Jean (lord of Brénieu), Pierre (cleric), Claude (cleric), 5d Eléonore (m Jean de Secondat de Montesquieu, Marg (m m Claude d'Orgeoise of Montferrier, Louise (m Jean de Montchenu), Sébastienne (m André Berenger du Gua). CONTINENTAL.
Followed further on Lionel of Antwerp descent page
Phillipa of Portugal table
Phillipa was the oldest child of John of Gaunt, the next oldest son of Edward III after Lionel. All the lines of her younger half-sister Catalina or Catherina, also fold into this table. Phillipa is the older sister of King Henry IV. Her direct descendants are European royalty. Trying to list 5th generation people with descendants possible:
- COUPLE+DAUGHTER-IN-LAW. Emperor Maximilian m. *Marie of Burgundy, both 5th gen in this table. All legit lines with Marie as mother through son Philip (6th gen) who married *Juana la loca (5th gen from Catalina table). Genealogics (compare to Wikitree). Many illegitimate lines known but missing in Wikitree.
- Kunigunde, Maximilian's sister (5th gen). Genealogics (compare Wikitree). Many German and Austrian descents.
- COUPLE. King João (John) II of Portugal m. his cousin Leonor (Eleanor) of Portugal (no descendants), both 5th gen. MEDLANDS shows their legitimate children and grand children, but it goes no further. João's line continues through Jorge de Lancastre (6th gen) his illegitimate son. Genealogics.
- COUPLE. King Manoel I of Portugal had children to several women including fellow 5th gen descendant *Maria of Aragon from the Catalina table. Genealogics (compare Wikitree).
- Andrés Apostol de Castilla y Portugal, of Guadalajara. Illegitimate son of Joana de Portugal. Genealogics. MEDLANDS: "m MENCÍA de Quiñones de Banares, daughter of JUAN de Banares & his wife Beatriz de Quiñones. Their descendants bore the surname "de Castilla y Portugal"." MEDLANDS calls their continuing family "Castilla of Guadalajara".
- Pedro de Castilla y Portugal of the Canary Islands. Illegitimate son of Joana de Portugal. Wikipedia. Mentioned in MEDLANDS. Seems to have founded a Castilla line in the Canary islands.
- Diogo who was brother of King Manual I. Genealogics. Descents through his illegitimate son Afonso of Portugal (6th gen). MEDLANDS
- Isabella of Portugal has descendants from her husband Fernando II 'o Africano' Duke of Bragança and Guimaraes. Genealogics.
- Philip von Kleve. Genealogics and other site report at least one illeg. son Hector, who was apparently legitimized. (For his wife, who had no children it seems, see the Isabella table.) One website reports Hector having a wife. She certainly had children from an earlier marriage. See e.g. .
NOTES. Following REMOVED from list Oct 2018 because Portuguese Wikipedia says the descent from Edward is a late fabrication.
- 1. Nunho I Manoel, Seigneur de Salvaterra supposedly an illegit son of Joao Manoel bâtard de Portugal, Bishop of Ceuta, Primate of Africa, (4th gen), illegit son of King Duarte of Portugal (3rd gen from Edward III). Genealogics.
- 2. Joao Manoel, 1.Grand-alcade de Santarem, Nunho's brother, and supposedly another illegit grandson of King Duarte of Portugal.
CHECK further (Oct 2018)
- 3. Álvaro Soares da Cunha (5th gen), illeg son of King Afonso V (4th gen). Wikipedia. (Only appears in unsourced English Wikipedia article?)
This is another set of descents which require Wikitree to have more continental aristocratic lines.
King Henry IV table
Henry IV was the senior male line from John of Gaunt (and the first King of England with Magna Carta lines). In the 5th generation from Edward III, and known to have descendants so far:
- François of Uzeste and Portets. Not yet in Wikitree. Descendants on Genealogics. Also see article by Bailly, and online discussion involving Richardson.
- Richard Grey Lord Powis. OVERLAP NOTE. His wife is 4th gen in the Touchet table, which has a lower primogeniture position than this table. But their children are currently also counted there for this list - as 5th generation descendants via their mother's line. In the case of any on-going study based on primogeniture format they belong under Henry IV.
- Humphrey Grey. Son of Antigone, but RA gives no further information. Cracroft website says he married Eleanor, a daughter who does not appear in RA in the TUCHET 15 family. It says they had issue. Genealogics says Humphrey did not have issue? But Welsh sources claim he had a son John, ancestor of the Vaughns of Llwydiarth. Pedigree. Here is a statement of the problem, showing a quartered shield for "umffre grae" and his wife, it seems, "merch arglwyd awdle" (girl of the Lord Audley), noting his brother certainly married such an Audley girl. Here is a pedigree showing son John had daughter Eliz who married John ap Howell Vaughan esq of Llwydiarth.
- Joan Grey married in Wales? David Topping wrote: "As well as a sister Elizabeth, wife of Roger Kynaston, Bartrum identifies a sister called Jonet who married Ieuan ap John and had issue. ". Also see here
- Elizabeth (Grey) Kynaston. RA confirms m Roger Kynaston and says 4s Humph, Lanc, Rich, Oliver, 5d Marg (m. Richard Hanmer), Ermin (m. John ap John Euton/Eyton), Mary, Jane (m. Th Corbet, Ieuan Llwyd, Edw Sackville), Jane (again). Richardson lines to gateways Ellis, Littleton, Lloyd.
Elizabeth of Lancaster's table
Elizabeth was younger sister to Henry IV and Phillipa. 5th generation with possible descendants today:
- Ralph Neville KB, 3rd Earl. RA IV p.242 says 1s Ralph (children from 2nd wife Edith Sandys) and 1d Anne (m Wm Conyers and Anth Saltmarshe see RA CONYERS 18.) Wm Conyers appears in Joan Beaufort's Neville descendants' table below.
Note on double counting: his descendants inter-marry a lot with other Edward III descendants whose lines are in other tables.
This is an illegitimate line, stemming from Elizabeth of Lancaster's. One 5th generation person so far with traceable modern descendants:
- Joan de Holland. Gateway line. RA V.3. KENDALL. 3 sons with John Kendall (Edm, Wm, Walter), 1 daughter with 2nd husband John Trelawney (Jane, wife of John Widesale/Wynslade). Walter is followed in RA KENDALL 14.
Scottish Joan Beaufort table
This is the first of several tables needed to handle the large number of descendants of John of Gaunt's children with Katherine Swynford, who used the name Beaufort. First by primogeniture seems to be John Beaufort, but he needs several tables. This one is for his daughter Joan, who by her marriage became an ancestor of many Scottish nobles.
Generation 5 listing. This should be filtered a bit but the grandchildren with definite descendants should be here, and the ones needing further study should be on the first project page. Joan had grandchildren from two husbands... First Joan and King James Stewart I's grand children with descendants:
- Marie of Brittany, daughter of Isabel Stewart and her husband François, Duke of Britanny. Had issue with her husband Jean II de Rohan. See Genealogics. MEDLANDS.
- John Douglas. RA 2nd Earl Morton Wikipedia. Genealogics and Cracroft shows same 4 children as Wikitree: James (3rd Earl), Richard (had issue), Elizabeth/Beatrice had Keith issue, Agnes had Livingston issue.
- Janet (Douglas) Hepburn. RA says m Pat Hepburn, Earl Bothwell. 1 daughter. Descendants through George Seton 3rd Lord Seton, her husband.
- John Stewart Lord of Sticks, called James on wikitree. m Muriel Sutherland. Genealogics shows issue.
- King James III (Stewart) of Scotland. RA BRUS 14. Had issue!
- Mary (Stewart) Hamilton. Children from 2 husbands. Genealogics.
- Alexander Stewart. Duke of Albany, Earl of March. Genealogics shows descents through his two wives.
- Margaret Stewart. RA says m William Crichton, and "they had one illegitimate daughter, Margaret". Had issue with several men. Genealogics.
Second, the grandchildren with descendants of Joan and James Stewart of Lorn.
- John Stewart 2nd Earl of Atholl. Married Janet Campbell daughter of Archibald the second Earl of Argyll. Scots Peerage names 6 children.
- Elizabeth? (Stewart) Gray. Verity points out that this daughter of John Stewart Earl of Atholl is only known from secondary pedigrees. If she existed, her first name might not have been Elizabeth and it is not possible to be sure who her mother was. Supposedly married Andrew Gray 2nd Lord Gray. See Scots Peerage. Names 9 children. Genealogics names 8. She is here on the hearsay of secondary pedigrees only.
- Katherine Stewart. RA says m John Forbes 6th Lord Forbes. Verity says there is very little good evidence apart from Matthew Lumsden, who "was married to an illegitimate daughter of John, 6th Lord Forbes, presumably he was familiar enough with the family to correctly report the first name and parentage of the 6th Lord's Stewart wife." Verity thinks her mother was likely her father's second wife for chronological reasons. Their son James died according to Lumsden without issue but they had "a daughter called Elspet, who was married on the Laird of Grant". Elspet (Elizabeth) is 6th gen and has descendants.
- Joanna (Stewart) Gordon. Verity says this is one of the best documented of the daughters of the 1st Earl of Atholl, and chronology demands she was a daughter of his first wife. Genealogics names 6 children, 4 with issue. RA says Jean m Alex Gordon p.44 see RA BARCLAY 14. Genealogics mentions that "Janet" had issue with Alexander Gordon, 3rd Earl of Huntly.
- Elizabeth or Isabel (Stewart) Robertson. m Alexander Robertson of Struan. Concerning this Robertson family, see here. Verity shows that the marriage is well-documented, but feels it is not possible to be sure about her mother.
- Elspeth (Stewart) Innes. RA says m Robert Innes of Innermacky. Verity thinks this might be the same as the one who married Robertson of Strowan.
- Elizabeth (Stewart) Ross. RA mentions an Elizabeth but m to John Stewart 3rd earl of Lennox not m to Ninian Ross. Wikitree says that is a second marriage. Scots Peerage confirms, which is apparently the source. But Verity says that this second marriage is an error and Ninian Lord Ross was actually married to Lady Janet Stewart, the sister-in-law of Isabel (Stewart) countess of Lennox.
- Jean Stewart. RA mentions a Jean who m Robert Gordon of Pitlurg. According to Verity, Jean's first name is uncertain and the name of her husband is often wrongly given. There was no Robert Gordon of Pitlurg. Gordon pedigrees make it clear her husband was named John. The correct John Gordon is on Genealogics website, citing Burkes, but with Robert Gordon and Jean Stewart as his parents! Genealogics shows descendants into modern times though Wikitree shows no issue.
- Margaret Stewart. RA mentions a Margaret who m William Murray of Castletown. Scots Peerage says she was actually said to m his father William Murray of Tullibardine, but the son who died at Flodden is more likely. This is in the family of the Murrays who became Dukes of Atholl. Verity also says this marriage is difficult to confirm anything about. Genealogics says that Gordon-743 is a descendant.
- Mariote (Stewart) Campbell. RA says m one of the Colins Campbell of Glenorchy. Scots Peerage says she died 26 July 1524. Verity agrees her existence can be verified by primary documentation, but correct the death year to 1529. Genealogics shows descendants.
- Jean (Stewart) Arbuthnot. RA SPOTSWOOD 14 says 3s Rob, Pat, David (cleric) and 1d Isabel (SPOTSWOOD 15) who m twice. RA mentions no issue from 1st, but 2nd Robert Maule of Panmure had with her 3s Hen of Skyrne, Andrew of Gourdie, Wm (SPOTSWOOD 16), 1d Marjorie (m Andrew Guthrie)
- Alexander Stewart. Genealogics says had issue. Scots Peerage mentions 2 wives and issue from second.
- Agnes (Stewart) Maxwell. illeg RA mentions mistress of King James IV, and m Hepburn, Home, Rob Maxwell and Cuthbert Ramsey. Genealogics agrees and names various issue.
- James Stewart. illeg. Genealogics says had issue
- Elizabeth Stuart. illeg. Appears in Genealogics which confirms issue with Home
John Beaufort (II) table
The modern descents from the eldest son of John Beaufort, also named John Beaufort, Earl of Somerset, can all be handled in tables with higher primogeniture. He became Earl of Somerset. Both of the 5th generation couples we arrive at for further research are double continuations from Edward III, with wives from other tables.
In generation 6 there was a possible illegitimate son of Henry VII to an unknown mother,
- 6? Roland Veleville alias Britanny. He m Agnes ferch Gwilym Fychan ap Gwilym and they had two daughters. Moved to John Beaufort II table because not a son of Elizabeth. Chances are he was not a son of Henry VII, and currently (Oct 2020) he is not connected. See RA V TUDOR 14 pp. 210-211.
So this table does not need to be followed further unless something new is discovered.
Edmund Beaufort table
Edmund was another son of the first John Beaufort. 5th generation from Edward III, possibly with descendants:
- Margaret Darrell. RA says m (as 1st wife) James Tuchet (TUCHET 16.i, not an E3 descendant) Had 1s John 8th Lord Audley (This appears to be correct, though some sources break the line by interchanging the two wives of James Tuchet. Including Foster, who traces an onward line of descent from the 8th Baron.)
- Margaret (Spencer) Cary. RA says m Th Carey. RA says 2s 4d
- Catherine (Spencer) Percy. OVERLAP. RA says m Hen Algernon Percy, PERCY 15.i. OVERLAP. See Percy table where Hn Alg would be gen 6.) RA says 3s 2d. HANDLE IN OTHER TABLE
- Ann (Paston) Talbot. RA says also called Agnes. m Gilbert Talbot. 3d Marg (m Rob Newport), Eliz, Mary (m Thomas Astley).
- Elizabeth (Paston) Savile. RA says m John Savile. 1s Henry, 3d Anne (m Hen Thwaites, knt), Eliz (m Thomas Conyers knt), Marg (m Thom Wortley and Richard Corbet) / Stray surplus grandson Conyers-218. Her daughter Elizabeth did have a Conyers baby, Christopher, b 1520, no further info, and a Soothill boy Michael. IPM abstract is mysterious.
- Charles Somerset KG. illeg SOMERSET 14 in RA. Had issue
- Mary (FitzLewis) Neville. RA says m: 1 Anthony Wydeville (no issue); 2 George Neville (NEVILLE 9.iii) and had 1d Anne, who had 2 sons with John Markham, John and Henry.
Moved here from the Buckingham table (because his mother is from this table):
- Henry Stafford KG. RA STAFFORD 12, m Kath Wydeville 2s 2d
Margaret Courtenay table
Margaret née Beaufort, another child of the first John Beaufort. 5th generation with modern descendants highly probable:
- Charles Clifford. His father Roger (son of Thomas) is 6th gen from Clifford table. His wife Anne Knyvet is from the Buckingham table. Their line can be traced for example in Collins Peerage. FOLLOW IN OTHER TABLE?
Followed on the Lionel of Antwerp descendants page.
Henry Beaufort table
NOT a son of John Beaufort this time but a younger brother, with one 5th generation descendant identified so far who should have living descendants:
- Thomas Stradling Esq RA STRADLING 14. m . Janet Matthew 2s Edw (STRADLING 15), Harry, 1d, Jane (m Wm Griffith RA COYTEMORE 17).
[Walter Dennis was removed from this list. See G2G.]
Joan Beaufort's Ferrers table
Probably the most likely way for a person to be descended from Edward III and not know it is through Joan. Another daughter of John of Gaunt, but she needs even more tables than her brother John (5: Ferrers, Neville, and then branching from Neville, Salisbury, Buckingham, Latimer, Bergavenny).
Many lines go beyond 5:
- Richard Darcy LAUNCE 16. 3s 1d
- Joan (Darcy) Beaumont m. John Beaumont Esq.
- Elizabeth Greystoke Married twice. See RA SCROPE 12 and TALBOT 16
- Mary (Greystoke) Hastings m Th Salvain Esq and Edmund Hastings. Not followed in RA? Visitation of the North names 2 boys with Salvain, Radulph and Edmund. Radulph has children on Genealogics. Children need to be added on wikitree.
- Margaret (Greystoke) Grey m Th Gray RA GRAY 11. RA V.3. p.111 says 1s Ralph, 3d Ann (m Delavel , Hopton and Dacre), Eliz, Marg (m. Horsley).
- John Bigod. m Scrope. Son Ralph married Constable.
- Elizabeth (Bigod) Aske. RA ASKE 14. m. John Aske. 8s, 3d. See Surtees 144 p 97
- Agnes Bigod. m. Th Stillington
- Anne Bigod. Married William Conyers of Sockburn. Genealogics shows 11 children and follows 3. Of those 3 Wikitree is missing Cuthbert.
- William Eure. RA EURE 11 had issue. Pedigrees of the North says m Marg d of Rob Constable, knt.
- Elizabeth (Eure) Ellerker m. John Ellerker. No children in Wikitree yet, but see eg Surtees 146, p.46. Son is Ellercar-1 NOW CONNECTED
- Elizabeth Thornton. m George Lumley
- Jane Neville. RA m GASCOIGNE 16: 3s 4d. Sole heiress of both parents. Second husband James Harington 3s, but his heir was his illegit son. Her son and heir Wm Gascoigne XII (GASCOIGNE 17) m Margaret Percy (d of 3rd Earl PERCY TABLE) and was ancestor of 4 gateways, Bladen, Reade, Mauleverer, Saltonstall. Daughter Margaret m a Warde (TUNSTALL 17) and was ancestor of 2 gateways, Bladen and Carleton. Daughter Agnes m Rob Plumpton knt. Also see Surtees 144 p.151 HANDLE IN PERCY TABLE.
- A daughter of Gascoigne+Percy married Sir Ninian Markenfield and had Alice, who married Robert Mauleverer of Arncliffe. Mauleverer descendants in YAJ 16 p. 196
Walter Griffith II not included yet.
Joan Beaufort's Neville family table
This table deals with two of Joan's children, Catherine and William. In terms of primogeniture it is possible they are not the oldest, and so this table should be considered in conjunction with the other tables for their siblings' descendants: Salisbury, Buckingham, Latimer, and Bergavenny. (Percy and York were already dealt with above, because of the higher primogeniture ranking of Neville spouses in those cases.)
List so far, 5th generation with possibility of descendants:
- Cicely (Willoughby) Sutton. RA WILLOUGHBY 12.ii.a V.5 p.366 says m. Edward Sutton/Dudley SUTTON 9.
- James Strangeways. m Scrope, issue. See Surtees 144 p.107.
- William Conyers. RA CONYERS 18 m. Mary Scrope 1d, and m Anne Neville (see Elizabeth of Lancaster table) 1s Christopher (who had issue) 2d Kath (m Franc Bigod knt) and Marg (m Rich Cholmeley knt)
- Margery (Conyers) Bulmer. RA says m Wm Bulmer
- Anne (Conyers) Lumley. now connected. RA says m Rich Lumley
This is the second table stemming from Joan Beaufort's Neville family, in this case from her son Richard. 5th generation found so far with descendants:
- Thomas FitzAlan KG, KB 13. RA V.1 pp.156ff. says m Margaret Wydeville 2s Wm (m twice 1s w second Anne Percy), Edw, 2d Joan (m Geo Neville BERGAVENNY 16), Marg (m DE LA POLE 10.i.a)
- Margaret Neville RA V4 p.128 MONTAGU says m twice 1 Richard Huddleston (1s Richard no issue and his heiresses and sisters 2d now connected, Marg m Lancelot Salkeld and Joan m Hugh Fleming; and 2 Lancelot Threlkeld (no issue)
- Alice (Neville) Conyers RA says m Christopher Conyers see DRAKE 13 V.2 p.465 says 2s John esq and Geo esq, 3d Eliz m Rich Carlisle, Agnes m Geoff Lee 3s, Dorothy m Salter. Wikitree only has Agnes (the one followed in RA under DRAKE)
- Isabella (Neville) of Clarence. RA follows as MONTAGU 13 m George Plantagenet 2s d young, 2d. Anne d young and Marg m Richard POLE 17 RA V.4 p.395. 4s 1d Ursula. Wikitree is completely missing their son Arthur who had 1s 2d with Jane Lewknor; and has only one child followed for their son Geoffrey who had a large family.
- Alice (Fitzhugh) Fiennes. m John Fiennes. See Cracroft which shows they had at least two children: Thomas (8th Baron m Anne Bourchier from Thomas Woodstock table) and Anne who m twice, Berkeley and Brandon. It seems Anne had no issue, but Thomas has lots of descendant lines. Visitations of the North adds two children who died young plus a son John, with no explanation.
- Elizabeth (Fitzhugh) Parr. m twice 1. Wm Parr PARR 14 (says 3s Th, Wm (Lord Parr of Horton MP 4d), Jn ; 2d Anne (m Th Cheyne, now fixed) and Alice) and 2. Nicholas Vaux OXENBRIDGE 17 says 3d Kath (m Geo Throckmorton), Alice (m Rich Sapcott) now connected, Anne (m Thomas Strange) // QGA lines
- Isabel (Nevell) Huddleston. RA INGALDESTHORPE 14. m thrice. 1. William Huddleston esq of Millom 2s John knt (INGALDESTHORPE 15.) and Rich esq 2. Ran Dacre esq of Carlise 3. Wm Smyth (or Sibbertoft). d. 12 Oct 1516 or 12 Nov 1517
- Ann (Neville) Stonor. RA says m Wm Stonor knt of Stonor in Pyrton, Oxn DE LA POLE 12 RA II p.431 says 1s John 1d Anne. Anne is DE LA POLE 13. m Adrian Fortescue, 2d Margaret (m Thomas Wentworth knt, see NETTLESTEAD 19), and Frances (m. Thomas FitzGerald 10th Earl of Kildare)
- Margaret Neville. Now connected to parents. RA says m thrice 1. John Mortimer Knt (Genealogics says of Kyre Wyard, son of Hugh; apparently no issue; also here) 2. Charles Brandon KG [BRANDON 16.1.a. which says no issue, and TUDOR 14.v] 3. Robert Downes gent. But Richardson notes "Margaret Neville's illegitimate daughter, Anne, wife successively of Sir James Framyngham and Robert Brown. This daughter is not mentioned by Complete Peerage." Through this James Framlingham Marg is an ancestor of the Gaudy or Gawdy family. See Banks. The Framlinghams and Gaudies do not appear well-represented yet in Wikitree.
- Lucy (Neville) Browne. RA says m twice both handled under [TEMPLE 13] 1. Thomas FitzWilliam knt of Aldwark (Genealogics names 3 children; Wikitree shows children; See also Banks); 2. Anthony Browne knt of Calais. With Browne 2s Anthony KG and Henry, 2d Lucy (m John Cutts and Thomas Clifford) and Eliz.
- Cecily (Bonville) Grey. m twice. [GROBY 17] 1. Thomas Grey KG KB 1st Marquess of Dorest RA says 7s Edw KG KB 2nd Marq Dorset, Rich knt (m Florence Pudsey), John knt (m twice, no children named in RA), Anth living 1492, Geo cleric, Leonard Viscount Grane (m twice Arundel & Sutton), 7 daughters Cecily (m Sutton / Dudley), Bridget, Dorothy (m Willoughby & Blount), Eliz (m Gerald Fitz Gerald 9th Earl Kildare), Marg (m Rich Wake esq), Eliz (m Arundel see CHIDIOCK, wikitree calls her Eleanor), Mary (m Walter Devereux KG VIscount Hereford. Wikitree adds a daughter Anne. 2. Hen Stafford KG, Earl of Wiltshire. RA says no issue from second marriage.
- Edward Hastings m Mary Hungerford 2s Geo KB [HUNTINGDON 16], William 1d Anne (m Thomas Stanley KB Earl of Derby [STANLEY 17] fellow 6th gen cousin below). What happened to William?
- Anne Hastings. m George Talbot 4th Earl Shrewsbury. 11 children. (Wikitree has only 3.) George is himself on the Buckingham table, also 5th gen, where children from his other wife are discussed.
- Edward Stanley KG. Lord Monteagle m twice [WILTON 14] 1. Anne Harington 2 Eliz Vaughn. RA says with second wife had 1s Thomas KB 2nd Lord Monteagle [BRANDON 16.i.a.2]. Also it mentions he had 2 illegitimate sons Edward and Thomas (Bishop of Soder); and 2 illeg. daughters Eliz (m Thomas Langton Knt, Baron on Newton) and Mary (m Radcliffe). Wikitree only has Thomas KB.
- James Stanley. Bishop of Ely [at least 2 illeg sons and 1 illeg daughter]. RA names 1 son as "John, Knt" and the daughter was Margaret the wife of John Ireland, Knt. But others say she married a Halsall (eg Verity). John might actually be a cousin? See here.
- George (Stanley) de Stanley KG, KB. STANLEY 16 m Joan Strange. RA V p.31 says 5s (Thomas STANLEY 17 (married fellow 6th gen cousin above), Anth, Jn, James knt, Geo; 5d Eliz (m Edw Stanley knt), Eleanor, Kath, Joan, Marg (m John Osbaldeston esq)
In terms of absolute primogeniture (ignoring sex) this table is third in the group stemming from Joan Beaufort, in this case from her daughter Anne.
Also, because of tree crossovers, in an attempt to preserve a primogeniture order Henry Stafford KG is moved into his mother's table. She was a daughter of Edmund Beaufort, an older brother of Joan.
5th generation with descent:
- Anne Stafford, who has descent with surname Rous. Missing in wikitree. RA STAFFORD 11 V.5 pp.17-8 says 4s, w husband William Rouse who d 5/6 Dec 1505. She was living until at least 1515. Some sources named by Richardson here. Here is an example pedigree to modern times. Betham. Habington. TNA shows some papers at Shakespere Birthplace Trust.
- Anne (Cobham) Burgh. The son Sir Thomas is clear enough. Son Henry now added also, but his daughter's Vaughan family hard to identify. Also see this old pedigree. And here is an old will perhaps confirming her Vaughan husband was named Richard, not Ralph etc.
- George Talbot KG, KB. Wikipedia. 11 children from first wife Ann Hastings (Salisbury table 5th gen herself). (Wikitree has only 3.) One grandchild from second wife Eliz Walden is on Wikitree, Henry Compton.
- Anne Knyvet. Her husband Charles Clifford is 5th gen Courteney table on mother's side, and 7th gen Lionel table on father's side. FOLLOW IN LIONEL TABLE.
- Charles Knyvet. RA names issue m Anne Lacy 3s Robert, Anthony, William; 3d Lucy (m 3 times, issue from 1st Henry Gate, 3s 3d), Anne (m 3 times, issue from first 2, 1d to Nich Robertson and 1s 1d to Leonard Irby), Alice (m Edm Verney, no issue); Also from an earlier wife, Robert (d Ketts Rebellion), Eliz (m Richard Fitzwilliam of Kilburn (FITZWILLIAM 18). Wikitree only has Elizabeth.
Anne Knyvett (half sister of the other Anne Knyvett) who m Thwaite, is not an Edward III descendant like her husband and half-siblings
5th generation with descendants, so far identified:
- Richard Neville KB . RA LATIMER 16 says m twice: Anne Stafford (6s 6d) and Margaret.
- Thomas Neville. RA V3 p.540 says m 3 times: Anne Westerdale (no issue), Lettice Harcourt (1s Richard 3d incl Ellen m Kenelm Bucke), Anne Greville (1s John). Said to have descendants including Winslows.
So far, the following 5th generation descendants have been found who likely have descendants today:
- Elizabeth (Neville) Covert. RA V.1. p.323 says m twice: Thomas Berkeley and Richard Covert (FISHER 11). With Thomas 1s John 4d Lora (m John Ashburnham and John Daniel), Anne BERKELEY 12 (m John Brent 2s 2d but only 1d in wikitree), Eliz (m Geo Herbert knt, Alice (m Geo Whetenhall, gent)
- George Neville KG KB. BERGAVENNY 16 in RA says m 1. Joan Arundel (2d incl Jane see POLE 18) 2 Marg Brent (no issue), 3. Mary Stafford (3s 5d incl Ursula see SAINT LEGER 19), 4 Mary Brooke / Cobham, 1d.
- Edward Neville. RA V.1. p.323 says m Eleanor Windsor 2s Edward (Lord Bergavenny) and Henry (master of harriers) 5d (Kath m Clement Throckmorton (OXENBRIDGE 19), Mary (m Henry Dyneley), Eliz (m Thomas Eymes Esq) Frances (m Edward Waldegrave) Gertrude. / Wikitree (a) shows a line to Lunsford's wife Neville-1808, adds a son George, has 2 versions of the daughter Frances but neither m to an Waldegrave.
- Thomas Neville. knight of Mereworth, Kent. Genealogics names a daughter with Catherine Dacre. Daughter Margaret's descendants here. More.
- William Tanfield Esq.. RA TANFIELD 20 says m Isabel/Elizabeth Stavely and had 4s 3d
- Thomas Brooke. RA WYATT 19 8th Lord Cobham. RA says m 3 times: Dorothy Heydon (7s 6d), Elizabeth (no issue), Eliz Hart (no issue). Genealogics shows 12 children, but 5 with name unknown. Others are Geo, Thomas, Wm, Sir Edw, Mar, Faith, Eliz
- Marie Brooke. RA under WYAT V.5 p.410 says m 3 times: Robert Blagge; John Barrett, Richard Walden. Follows under CULPEPPER and FITZ HERBERT. Genealogics shows a son George Blagge. Wikitree is not currently following this forward so her descendants need to be added.
Other lines of descent from Edward III's second youngest son Edmund of Langley have been given higher primogeniture positions above, because of marriages into more senior lines (the York table being treated as a branch of Essex). This table is for the line descended from Eleanor Holland, which was not the main line, and remains to be handled here.
Note about double counting: The children of Richard Grey and his wife Margaret Tuchet, 4th gen in this table, are tracked above in Richard's Henry IV table, because he has a higher primogeniture position. But note that Richard's children are 6th gen in that table, but 5th in this one.
Note: For descendants of John de Audley, 8th Lord Audley, see the table for Edmund Beaufort. His line, the main line, did not descend from Eleanor Holland, but from Margaret Roos the first wife of James, the 5th Lord Audley.
5th generation with descendants so far:
- John Grey, 1st Baron of Powys. OVERLAP NOTE. HANDLE DESCENT in HENRY IV table.
- Elizabeth Grey, John's sister. Genealogics says "Her paternity established by David Topping". m Sir John Ludlow, of Hodnet, b. 1459, d. 23 Dec 1493 (Age 34 years) and had issue. This must be a relevant discussion! Profile made now by Kirk. OVERLAP NOTE. HANDLE DESCENT in HENRY IV table.
- Phillipa Hadley. See discussion. Wikitree has the son James. Are there any other known children?
- John Touchet. See same discussion. Shows he had more children than Richard.
- Elizabeth Sydenham née Audley. Touchet-136 replaces De_Audley-12 and Touchet-118. SYDENHAM V.5 p.108 says 3 sons, Henry and 2 named John. One of the Johns, a knight, is followed by Richardson under SYDENHAM 17 and has an HOP article. He is the only one wikitree follows. He m Ursula Bridges 6s 3d. Wikitree has 5 children.
- Elinor (Whitney) Vaughan. Married Thomas Vaughn of Bredwardine
- Joan (Whitney) Vaughan Followed in RA under BEVAN. Married Roger Vaughn of Porthaml in Brecon. 4s (Watkin esq, John, Harry esq, Thomas esq.) 4d: Elinor (m Thomas Gwyn, Hywel ap Ggilym, and William Dometh),
Elizabeth (m Thomas Morgan esq.) Had issue, daughter who m Jenkin ap Thomas, Margaret (m John Parker). Only some of these lines in wikitree.
Thomas of Woodstock table
Thomas was Edward III's youngest son. This is another leftover table, where other Thomas of Woodstock lines have been treated as having higher primogeniture because of marriages. 5th generation with descendants:
- John Bourchier KB 1st Earl of Bath, 11th Lord Fitz Warin. RA under FITZ WARIN says married Eliz Wentworth WYNDHAM 15. But RA Vol V, p.433 says it was his 3rd marriage. He has a Wikipedia article which mentions 8 children from his first wife, which is what wikitree has. Unclear about whether there were children from the other 2 wives, but seems not.
- Joanna Bourchier (m James Tuchet) TUCHET 16.i in RA. "issue, including two sons, John and James". It seems the John who took up the peerage was the son of another wife Margaret Darrell. These sons do not appear on Wikitree, and Richardson only mentions their existence.
- Elizabeth Bourchier RA FITZ WARIN 18. Says she married 3 times. No issue from first, Hugh Beaumont, 1d Anne from 2nd, Edw Stanhope, 1d Eliz from 3rd, Richard Page. WT gives an extra dubious d named Margaret Stanhope.
- John Bourchier RA BOURGCHIER 14. m Katherine Howard: 1s Thomas, 3d Joan (m Edm Knyvet), Marg, Mary. Also had 3 illegitimate sons, Humph (m but no issue), James (BOURCHIER 15), George (known from father's will), and one illegitimate daughter Ursula (m Wm Sherrington knt, no issue). WT currently handles 3 of his children.
- Margaret (Bourchier) Bryan 01 Jun 1468 - 01 Jun 1551. RA V.1. p.485 BOURGCHIER 13 says Marg m 3 times: 1. John Sandys of Ringwood Hants; 1 child, 2. Th Bryan 2s (Thomas; Francis who m Phillipe Spice and Joan FitzGerald and was chief justice of Ireland no issue mentioned), 3d (Marg m. Henry Guildford KG son of Guilford-2 no issue, Anne, Eliz m Nich Carew BEVILLE 18), 3. David Zouche s/o John of Codnor, no children mentioned. Wikitree has an inexplicable son John, and only really follows Elizabeth Carew.
- Anna (Bourchier) Fiennes. RA V.1. p.485 BOURGCHIER 13 says Anne m. Thomas Fiennes 8th Lord Dacre of Gilsland. Cracroft website shows that Thomas is son of Alice FitzHugh gen 5 in the Salisbury table. Thomas and Anne had issue, Thomas and Mary. Wikitree adds a Catherine.
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