Saier (Quincy) de Quincy
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Saher (Quincy) de Quincy (abt. 1165 - 1219)

Saher (Saier) "1st Earl of Winchester" de Quincy formerly Quincy aka de Kenci
Born about [location unknown]
Ancestors ancestors
[sibling(s) unknown]
Husband of — married before 1191 [location unknown]
Descendants descendants
Died at about age 54 in Damietta, Egyptmap
Profile last modified | Created 2 Mar 2014
This page has been accessed 58,189 times.
Magna Carta Surety Baron
Saier de Quincy was one of the twenty-five medieval barons who were surety for Magna Carta in 1215.
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Contents

Biography

Birth and Parentage

Saher de Quincy was the son of Robert de Quincy and Orabilla/Orabel de Leuchars.[1][2][3][4] His birth date is uncertain: Cawley speculates that it may have been in the period 1165-1170.[3]

Marriage and Children

Saher married Margaret Beaumont[1][3][4], probably in or before 1190.[1][2][3] They had five sons and three daughters:

Lands

Saher held lands in Cambridgeshire, Huntingdonshire, Northamptonshire, Suffolk, and East Lothian in Scotland, and, through his wife, in Leicestershire and Oxfordshire.[2]

Reign of Richard I

By the end of the 1180s, Saher began to be listed as a witness to Scottish deeds.[1]

He was recorded in 1190 as a proposed envoy to the Scottish king.[2] In August 1198 he was with Richard I in Northern France.[1][2]

Reign of King John

In 1200 Saher was present when William the Lion of Scotland paid homage for his lands in England to King John at Lincoln.[1][2][4]

In 1203 he granted some of his Scottish lands to Abbeys in Scotland.[2] That year he and Robert FitzWalter held the castle of Vaudreuil, Normandy, for King John, but surrendered without resistance to Philippe Auguste of France[1][2][4]: he and Robert were held at Compiègne until a ransom of £5000 was paid.[2] He was released before May 1204[4], when he is recorded in England.[2]

Before 10 February 1206/7 Saher was made Earl of Winchester.[1][2][3][4] (There is some evidence from charters that he was briefly recognised as Earl of Winchester in the mid-1190s.[2])

In 1209 Saher took part in a diplomatic mission to Scotland.[1] The following year he fought for King John in Ulster.[1][2][4] In 1212 he went as ambassador to the Holy Roman Emperor Otto IV.[1][2]

In 1215 Saher joined in the baronial opposition to King john, and he was a Surety Baron for the Magna Carta.[1][2][3][4] His continuing opposition to John led to his excommunication in December 1215.[2][3][4] He and Robert FitzWalter went to France to offer the English crown to Louis, the French king's son, and came back to England in January 1216 accompanied by a substantial French force.[1][2][3][4] His English lands were confiscated and entrusted to William Marshal.[2][3][4]

Reign of Henry III

Saher continued siding with Louis of France on the accession of Henry III. On 20 May 1217 he was captured in the Second Battle of Lincoln. In September that year he returned to allegiance to the English crown, and his lands were restored soon after.[2][3][4]

Fifth Crusade and Death

Saher de Quincy joined the Fifth Crusade in 1219. He died on 3 November 1219 of illness during the siege of Damietta, Egypt. He was buried at Acre.[1][2][3][4] His heart was burned and later interred at Garendon Abbey, Leicestershire.[3] His widow did not remarry, and died on 12 January 1234/5.[2][3][4]

Saher died owing money to the Crown. On 2 August 1220, the Sheriff of Wiltshire was ordered to safeguard his chattels and corn in lands inherited by himself and his wife, which were to be used to meet his debts and fulfil his will, and held at the date he set out for Jerusalem until he received further orders. A week later the Sheriff of Cambridgeshire and Huntingdonshire was ordered to have corn and chattels on lands in those counties valued and handed over to Saher's widow after she had given security for debts Saher owed the Crown.[7]

Research Notes

Wife

Margar Harnell was previously given as a wife of Saher de Quincy. He had only one wife, Margaret de Beaumont, and Margar Harnell may never have existed.

Death Date

Cawley mentions three sources which suggest a death date of 1220 rather than 1219 - the Annals of Dunstable, Matthew Paris and the Chronicle of Ralph of Coggeshall.[3] The 3 November 1219 death date is supported by the necrology of Garendon Abbey in Leicestershire.[3]

Magna Carta 800th Anniversary Biography

For the 800th anniversary of the Magna Carta in 2015, Professor Nigel Saul wrote a set of biographies of the Surety Barons. He and the Magna Carta 800th Anniversary Committee generously gave permission for them to be reproduced on WikiTree. They can be viewed here.

Sources

  1. 1.00 1.01 1.02 1.03 1.04 1.05 1.06 1.07 1.08 1.09 1.10 1.11 1.12 1.13 1.14 1.15 Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, entry for 'Quincy, Saer de, earl of Winchester', print and online 2004, revised online 2005, available online via some libraries
  2. 2.00 2.01 2.02 2.03 2.04 2.05 2.06 2.07 2.08 2.09 2.10 2.11 2.12 2.13 2.14 2.15 2.16 2.17 2.18 2.19 2.20 2.21 2.22 2.23 2.24 2.25 2.26 2.27 Douglas Richardson. Magna Carta Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, 4 vols, ed. Kimball G. Everingham. 2nd edition. Salt Lake City: the author, 2011. See also WikiTree's source page for ‘’Magna Carta Ancestry.’’ Vol III, pages 403-407, QUINCY 1
  3. 3.00 3.01 3.02 3.03 3.04 3.05 3.06 3.07 3.08 3.09 3.10 3.11 3.12 3.13 3.14 3.15 3.16 3.17 3.18 3.19 3.20 Charles Cawley. Saher I de Quincy, entry in "Medieval Lands" database (accessed 20 April 2019), a prosopography of medieval European noble and royal families © by Charles Cawley, hosted by Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (FMG)
  4. 4.00 4.01 4.02 4.03 4.04 4.05 4.06 4.07 4.08 4.09 4.10 4.11 4.12 4.13 G E Cokayne. The Complete Peerage, revised edition, Vol. XII, Part II, St Catherine Press, 1959, pp. 748-750, WINCHESTER Earldom I
  5. Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry, Vol. III, pp. 412-413, QUINCY 2
  6. Charles Cawley, Medlands, entry for Richard Harcourt d.1258
  7. Henry III Fine Rolls Project, Fine Roll C 60/12, 4 HENRY III (1219–1220), entries 208 and 222, web
  • Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, entry for 'Quincy, Saer de, earl of Winchester', print and online 2004, revised online 2005, available online via some libraries
  • Richardson, Douglas. Royal Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, 5 vols, ed. Kimball G. Everingham. Salt Lake City: the author, 2013. See also WikiTree's source page for ‘’Royal Ancestry’’. Vol IV, pages 437-441
  • Richardson, Douglas. Magna Carta Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, 4 vols, ed. Kimball G. Everingham. 2nd edition. Salt Lake City: the author, 2011. See also WikiTree's source page for ‘’Magna Carta Ancestry.’’ Vol III, pages 403-407, QUINCY 1
  • "Medieval Lands", online database, Charles Cawley, accessed 3 June 2014
  • Wikipedia: Saer de Quincy, 1st Earl of Winchester
  • Cokayne, G E. The Complete Peerage, revised edition, Vol. XII, Part II, St Catherine Press, 1959, pp. 748-750, WINCHESTER Earldom I
  • Cawley, Charles. Saher I de Quincy, entry in "Medieval Lands" database (accessed 20 April 2019), a prosopography of medieval European noble and royal families © by Charles Cawley, hosted by Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (FMG). See also WikiTree's source page for MedLands.
  • Dictionary of National Biography, 1885-1900, entry for 'Quincy, Saer de', Wikisource
  • Lewis, Marlyn. Our Royal, Titled, Noble and Commoner Ancestors & Cousins, accessed 3 June 2014, entry for Saher de Quincy

Acknowledgements

Magna Carta Project

Saher de Quincy is a Magna Carta surety baron and has the Magna Carta Project as a manager.
See Quincy-226 Descendants for profiles of his descendants that have been improved and categorized by the Magna Carta project and are in a project-approved trail to a Gateway Ancestor. See this index for links to other surety barons and category pages for their descendants. See the project's Base Camp for more information about Magna Carta trails.
This profile was revised for the Magna Carta Project by Michael Cayley in December 2019.






Comments: 28

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It appears to me that Mary (Launce) Sherman, at first glance, has a Magna Carta trail to Saher de Quincy through the latter's daughter, Hawise, including several (de) Courtenays and Mary's maternal grandmother, Elizabeth Astley, and other trails as well.
posted by Dennis Burman
Thanks. The existence of many trails from Mary Sherman to a number of Surety Barons is recognised on her profile, https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Launce-4. Please see the Magna Carta Project section there. Where Gateways have many trails to the Barons, the Magna Carta Project is not seeking to identify and list all of them. Some Gateways have tens or hundred of trails. The main aims of the Project are

- to identify and verify at least ONE trail from each Gateway to ONE Surety Baron

- to develop profiles in trails it works on to a high standard.

posted by Michael Cayley
According to Wikipedia, he also had a daughter named Mary

Sometime between 1188 and 1193 de Quincy married Margaret, youngest daughter of Robert de Beaumont, 3rd Earl of Leicester.[2] By his wife Margaret de Beaumont, Earl Saer had:

  • Lora, who married Sir William de Valognes, Chamberlain of Scotland.
  • Arabella, who married Sir Richard Harcourt.
  • Robert (died 1217); before 1206 he married Hawise of Chester, 1st Countess of Lincoln, sister and co-heiress of Randolph de Blondeville, 4th Earl of Chester.
  • Roger, who succeeded his father as earl of Winchester (though he did not take formal possession of the earldom until after his mother's death).[8]
  • Robert de Quincy [de] (second son of that name; died 1257), who married Elen, daughter of the Welsh prince Llywelyn the Great.
  • Hawise, who married Hugh de Vere, 4th Earl of Oxford.

Mary, who married Hugh le Despenser (sheriff).

John de Quincy

Saher de Quincy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saer_de_Quincy,_1st_Earl_of_Winchester

posted by Anonymous (Schuyler) Campos
edited by Anonymous (Schuyler) Campos
The children section in Saher's Wikipedia article is not sourced and clearly states: "This section does not cite any sources. Please help improve this section by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (April 2018)."

Many sections in the Saher de Quincy article on Wikipedia are unsourced. Also, there are no sources on the Hugh le Despenser Wikipedia article. If you can find a source for a daughter Mary, please add another comment to this profile. Thanks!

posted by Traci Thiessen
edited by Traci Thiessen
Thanks for raising this. as Traci says, Wikipedia gives no sourcing and should not be relied on. Reliable sourcing is required before the suggestion that Hugh Despenser, https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Despenser-40, married Mary de Quincy can be accepted.

Medieval Lands states that the name of Hugh's wife is not known: https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISH%20NOBILITY%20MEDIEVAL2.htm#HughDespencerdied1265. The entry for his son Hugh in the revised edition of Cokayne's Complete Peerage also indicates that the name of his wife is not known: G E Cokayne, Complete Peerage, revised edition, Vol. IV, St Catherine Press, 1916, pp. 259-60, https://archive.org/details/completepeerageo04coka/page/258/mode/2up. His son Hugh's entry in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography names no mother.

posted by Michael Cayley
edited by Michael Cayley
I realize that the dates given for the birth of their 8 children are approximations. But do we know if they were born approximately in the order shown in the bio section? Thank you again for answering so many questions. Saher is my direct ancestor (via Hawise).
posted by Harold Bullock
As far as I am aware we do not know the birth order of the children.You can go to their profiles for the information we have found.

This is standard for this period.

Inheritance information may help to indicate which was the oldest son still alive when a parent died, but that is quite often the most we have to go on. That son may have had older brothers who died earlier.

posted by Michael Cayley
edited by Michael Cayley
When it says in his bio that his body was buried in Acre, is that to mean Acre in Israel? Also, in the statue of him at the Temple Church, London, he is portrayed as very dark-skinned. Is that simply an artistic artifact of the sculptor, or was he said to be very dark-skinned (perhaps Arabic or African) in real life?
posted by Harold Bullock
Israel did not exist as a State at this time. But it would have been Acre in the Crusader States.

The colour of the statue will reflect the material it is made of (and the way that material has aged). It will not be intended to be a skin colour.

posted by Michael Cayley
edited by Michael Cayley
can we accept that the improbable birth dates for Loreta and Hawise are either wrong or that they were not his daughters?
posted by Stephan Hurford
They are well-sourced as daughters. There are no firm birth dates for either of them. Hawise was probably born between 1200 and 1212, which is what is said on her bio. I have adjusted the birth date field to about 1205. I have also adjusted Loretta's birth date to about 1190 as it is believed her parents married by then.
posted by Michael Cayley
I have now finished the main work I intend on this profile. If anyone spots any typos etc, please correct them. Thanks!
posted by Michael Cayley
I plan to revise this profile, and make it more compact, as part of what I am doing for the Magna Carta Project on Surety Barons. In the process I will replace the text copied and pasted from Burke’s Peerage and Medlands.
posted by Michael Cayley
I agree with Andrew Lancaster and Chase Ashley on this. I think it is inappropriate to use "Sir" for someone of this period. Knighthood as we would understand it had not come into being at this time.
posted by Michael Cayley
I agree with Chase Ashley about the use of "sir" in this period. Concerning Richardson, I think his relatively unusual ideas about how to modernize and standardize names is one of the areas where he is least followed, or seen as an authority. Complete Peerage is still the more respected authority for names. It call him Saher de Quency IV. (2nd ed, Vol12ii p.748)
posted by Andrew Lancaster
Liz - you can take removing scroll boxes here off your list - I removed all three that were on this profile.

Now the profile is on my list to combine repetitive text into a smooth narrative:)

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