It is commonly believed that R1a-M417 (a clade parental to L664 and to its brother clade Z645, both encompassing about 99% of all R1a members) was strongly associated with the birth and expansion of the Corded Ware culture (3000-2200 BC), and we know of at least one presumed L664 case found among the Corded Ware samples from Central Germany (sample RISE 446 from grave in Bergrheinfeld in Germany, dated by C14 at 2400-2800 BC classified as R-S3479). It seems almost certain that the ancestors of L664 came from Eastern Europe, where the Corded Ware culture is now strongly believed to have originated. However, based on the current distribution of all potential sub-branches, we can be nearly certain that L664 has subsequently expanded in NW Europe. Martin Voorwinden estimates that although the frequency of L664 reaches its maximum in NW Europe, it is relatively low there (only 0.2-0.8%). However, thanks to the fact that L664 is easily recognized based on a very rare STR result DYS388=10 in the first 12 STRs (so the potential L664 members are very efficiently identified among the FTDNA customers), we know that this branch is practically absent in other parts of Europe. Most of the continental Corded Ware-associated Western European subclades under M417 seem to have become nearly extinct following the arrival of the R1b-rich Bell Beaker people, although some of those rare R1a species could have somehow managed to survive, and are now occasionally seen among people originating from Germany, Low Countries, Britain, Ireland and Scandinavia. It seems that the only reason why L664 was able to recover so exceptionally well (when compared to FGC9988, YP4758, S24902, YP5000, YP3896, YP694, etc.) was that this lineage found a kind of a niche (most likely on the Frisian coast, but some other locations cannot be excluded) that allowed its members to avoid the nearly absolute annihilation about 4500-4300 years ago (this corresponds quite well with the estimated TMRCA for L664). It is not clear at which point the L664 branch became a part of the suddenly expanding Early Germanic population, but one may suspect that this happened only after the Proto-Germanic Jastorf culture (6th to 1th century BC) expanded westward. Today, L664 is present in all countries located around the North Sea, including England, Belgium, Netherlands, Northern Germany, Denmark and Norway. Notably, it is relatively frequent in Cornwall and Ireland but very rare in Wales, Scotland and Iceland. All this suggests that the most recent common ancestor of all L664 members could have lived somewhere on the North Sea coast. As mentioned above, I suggest Frisia as the most likely center of the L664 expansion, which is consistent with some data suggesting that the DYS338=10 frequency there may reach 3% (though the sample was relatively small). In addition to some peaceful expansion along the maritime trading ways, the two major waves of L664 migrations were likely associated with the Anglo-Saxon invasion (known for the significant Frisian contribution to this process) and the more recent Norman conquest of Britain (starting in 1066 AD) that was directed towards England, Cornwall and Ireland, but not towards Wales or Scotland. It seems that England, Netherlands and Germany are the only countries where all major subclades under L664 are present.
Hello David Roberds
Welcome to our R1a-project. To all new members of R1a-Subclade L664 we send the following text:
Because your haplotype shows DYS388=10 this means you are part of the Section 2. (North-Western European Branch). For all other members of haplogroup R1a the value of DYS388 is nearly always 12, this means DYS388=10 is an unique marker for our Section 2. This Section 2. is further identified by the SNP's CTS4385 and L664. A very small minority in Section 2. is positive for CTS4385 but negative for L664 and they also have the normal value of 12 for DYS388 and not 10. So we think the STR mutation DYS388=10 occurred more or less at the same time as the SNP mutation L664. About 6500 years ago the main branch of R1a-M417 splits into 2 branches resp. R1a1-CTS4385 and R1a1-Z645. Nearly all members of haplogroup R1a (>99%), who live today, belong to one of these two branches. Our branch R1a-CTS4385>L664 survived until today, but is relative very small in number. In our FTDNA R1a1-project only 5% belongs to R1a1-CTS4385>L664 and therefor 95% belongs to R1a1-Z645.
It is very remarkable that nearly all members of R1a-CTS4385>L664 (about 97%) have their origin only in the countries around the North Sea (British Isles, Norway/Sweden, Denmark, NW-Germany, Netherlands). The subclade R1a1-CTS4385>L664 is represented by only 0,2 - 0,9% of the total population in the countries around the North Sea. The subclade R1a1-CTS4385>L664 has a wide diversity in STR-haplotypes, and the subclade can be divided in several subgroups. Since the results of the BigY tests are available we can build a haplotree based on SNP's and the subgroups are now named according to their specific SNP. On the y-dna result page of our R1a-project you can find to which subgroup you belong.
You have tested only 37 STR-markers and normally it then difficult to say to which subclade under R1a-L664 you belong. However in your case I have already some idea to which subclade you could belong.
I think you belong to the largest subclade under R1a-L664, which is YP282, because you have DYS464=12-14-14-17
Based on your 67 STR haplotype we can now say for 100% certainty that you belong to subclade YP282 (because your DYS492=14 which is unique for this subclade) The subclade YP282 shows a rapid expansion in several branches about 2000 years ago. The whole subclade R1a-L664 is much older and was formed about 5000 years ago or 3000 BC. In the Netherlands the giving of surnames started only around 1600 AD for the common people, but in England they started already earlier, what I know (about 1300 AD?)
Martin Voorwinden (Netherlands) Co-adm. R1a-Project (Subclade L664)
test results for 111STR-markers
Y-DNA111 matches - I only have one match at this level: Gordon Swingler, kit # 242631 (see: Families In British India Society DNA Project - Y-DNA Classic Chart, linked below)
Have you taken a DNA test for genealogy? If so, login to add it. If not, see our friends at Family Tree DNA.
On 10 Oct 2017 at 11:46 GMT Keith Hathaway wrote:
On 29 Dec 2016 at 00:35 GMT Addison Griffith wrote:
Addison Griffith 2907
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Cheers, Liz (nee Noland)
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You are now a confirmed member of WikiTree! Thank you for volunteering.
Wow!!! You're the 36th Roberds to join Wikitree! With that many Roberds' here I'm just betting there are some 'cousins' already profiled. I'm looking forward to reading about your ancestors.
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On 17 Jan 2016 at 23:54 GMT David Roberds wrote:
On 17 Jan 2016 at 21:59 GMT Cathryn (Hallett) Hondros wrote:
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