Robert (Ros) de Roos

Robert (Ros) de Roos (abt. 1172 - abt. 1227)

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Robert de Roos formerly Ros aka de Ros [uncertain]
Born about in Helmsley, Yorkshire, Englandmap
Ancestors ancestors
Husband of — married 1191 in Haddington (East Lothian, Scotland)map
Descendants descendants
Died about in Helmsley, Yorkshire, Englandmap
Profile last modified 12 Sep 2019 | Created 8 Dec 2014 | Last significant change: 12 Sep 2019
23:38: Liz (Noland) Shifflett edited the Biography for Robert (Ros) de Roos (abt.1172-abt.1227). (edited name in Magna Carta Project section) [Thank Liz for this]
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Magna Carta Surety Baron
Robert de Roos was one of the twenty-five medieval barons who were surety for Magna Carta in 1215.
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Contents

Biography

Robert de Roos[1]

Vitals

Robert de Roos (or Ros), "son and heir of Everard de Roos of Helmsley, Yorkshire, by Rose, daughter of William Trussebut, born about 1170-2 (aged 13 in 1185, had livery of his lands in 1191)," married Isabel of Scotland, illegitimate daughter of "William the Lion, King of Scots, by a mistress, ____ Avenel". He was Isabel's 2nd husband. Her first, Robert de Brus, died in 1190. Robert de Roos and Isabel married "at Haddington, East Lothian, Scotland, in 1191".[1][2]
Robert and Isabel had two sons:
Robert de Roos died "sometime in 1227, and was buried in the Temple Church at London"[1] "An effigy in that church sometimes associated with him dates from at least a generation later."[5]
His date of death is not known, but his son and heir, William de Ros, did homage for his father's lands 23 December 1226, so whether he had died by this time, or as some speculate, as a Templar, had retired from secular life, is not known.[citation needed]

Titles and Lands

Titles
for "Robert de Ros, surnamed Furfan",[6][7] of Helmsley and Hunsingore, Yorkshire,[8] and Wark, Northumberland[9][10]
  • 4th Baron Hamlake[6][8]
  • 4th Baron of Hamlake Manor
    Sir Robert de Ros or Roos of Fursan (1177 - 11 December 1226) was the fourth baron by tenure of Hamlake manor (later associated with the barony of de Ros).[citation needed]
  • 3rd Lord Roos of Hamlake[7]
  • Lord of Hamlake Castle, Yorkshire[citation needed]
  • Bailiff and Castellan of Bonneville-sur-Touques, Lower Normandy[5][7]
  • Sheriff of Cumberland 1213[5][11][12]
  • Magna Carta Surety Baron[1]
  • Knight Templar[13]
    "At some stage he was received into the ranks of the Templars and on his death he was buried in the Temple Church in London, where a few years earlier William Marshal, the one-time Regent had been buried. An effigy in that church sometimes associated with him dates from at least a generation later."[5]
Lands
Robert inherited much of the lands held by his ancestors: Great-grandfather Peter de Roos;[14] grandparents Robert de Ros and Sibyl de Valognes;[13] parents Everard de Ros and Roese Trussebut[13][15] Robert's great-grandmother, wife of Piers de Roos, was Adeline Espec. (She is shown in WikiTree as daughter of William, mentioned below as Walter; William's profile notes that the heirs of his daughters [Hawise, Albreda and Adeline] divided his inheritance after Walter [his son] died.)
  • "The Ros family, from the village of Roos in Yorkshire, had in 1158 acquired the barony of Helmsley, also in Yorkshire, and before 1189 by gift of King Henry II the barony of Wark on Tweed in Northumberland.[9] - "Category:Early Barony of Helmsley, "Category:Honour of Wark"
  • Furfan, Robert de Ros, as a minor at his father's death was the ward of the King in 1185, when his lands were in the custody of Ranulph de Glanville. In 1190 he had livery of the lands of his Trussebut inheritance.[citation needed] (of interest: Ranulph's WikiTree profile shows he died 1190)
  • Robert, son of Everard de Ros of Helmsley or Hamlake in the North Riding of Yorkshire. The family also held lands in Holderness, where was situated Ros, to which they gave, or from which they received, their name. Robert succeeded to his father's lands in 1191, paying a relief of 1000 makrs. In 1195 he was bailiff and castellan of Bonneville-sur-Touques in Lower Normandy near which the Norman lands of the family lay.[7]
  • 6 Jan 1200: King granted all honors and lands that belonged to Walter Espec (g-g-grandfather to Robert) in Northumberland, including Wark where Robert built a castle.[citation needed] "...it is recorded in the Chartulary of Rievaulx Abbey that he 'raised the Castles of Helmislay and of Wark'." [citation needed]
  • Robert de Ros...in the 1st Richard I [1189], paid 1,000 marks fine to the crown for livery of his lands.[16]
  • 25 May 1205: He had livery of his share of the manor of Braunston, Northamptonshire, formerly belonging to his grandmother, Aubrey de Harcourt.[citation needed]
10 Apr 1215: received the royal manors of Sowerby, Carleton, and Oulsby, all near Penrith in Cumberland and Westmoreland.[17]
  • He joined with Peter de Brus and Richard de Percy, in attempting to subdue Yorkshire. All his lands in Yorkshire were granted, but he returned to his allegiance in November 1217, and his Cumberland estates were confirmed to him in 1218.
  • Henry III commanded his manors of Sowerby, Carleton, and Oulsby to be restored to him on 23 July 1218, and orders to different bailiffs of the king to allow him to hold his lands unmolested were issued on 22 Nov 1220.[18]
Castles
  • Wark Castle (or Werke)[19]
  • Helmsley Castle
  • Bonneville Castle - from timeline - 1196 [Richard I] handed over to Robert's keeping Hugh de Chaumont,... Robert imprisoned him in his castle of Bonneville.[20]
  • Carlisle Castle - from timeline - 1216: After king's success in the north... a castle belonging to Robert was one of the only two that remained in the possession of the barons in the north.[citation needed] next timeline entry mentioned Carlisle Castle[21] so presumably, that was the castle referred to as belonging to Robert.
Distribution of Estate
  • Robert was a benefactor of Rievaulx, Newminster, Kirkham, and the Templars.[22]
  • He founded the leprosery of St Thomas the Martyr at Bolton,[23] Northumberland.
  • He gave the manor of Ribston (West Riding of Yorkshire) to the knights templar, who established a commandery there. He also gave several houses in York to the same order.[24]
  • Robert divided his estates between his two sons. The elder, William, received Helmsley, whilst his brother Robert was to hold Wark and estates in Scotland.[14]
    • It was Robert de Roos, also known as Fursan, who rebuilt Helmsley Castle in stone after 1186; it is recorded in the Chartulary of Rievaulx Abbey that he 'raised the Castles of Helmislay and of Wark'. The core of the surviving castle dates from this period. Fursan levelled off the inner bank of the earthwork castle, replacing it with an enclosing stone curtain wall and round corner towers.[citation needed]
  • He died, or, as a Templar, retired from secular life, shortly before 23 Dec. 1226, when his son [William] did homage for his lands.[citation needed]

Knight Templar

In February 1205/6 he proposed to make a pilgrimage to Jerusalem. In 1212 he was believed to have taken the "habit of religion" as a Knight Templar of Jerusalem, but in the following year was certainly in the King's employment.[25]
28 Feb 1206: received licence, whenever he should take the cross, to pledge his lands for money to anyone of the king's subjects any time during the following three years[26] (permission renewed 26 Feb 1207).
Towards the end of his life he joined the Knights Templar (the military religious order originally founded for the protection of pilgrims in the Holy Land, and later an order of great wealth).[14]
Note He was buried at Temple Church, but Professor Saul's article (next section) states: "An effigy in that church sometimes associated with him dates from at least a generation later."[5] The following description given, therefore, is of someone else.
"He was a member of the Order of Knights Templar. He died in 1226/7 and was buried 'in his proper habit' in the Knights' Church, or the New Temple in London, where his tomb may be seen. His effigy is described by Gough, in Sepulchral Monuments, as "the most elegant of all the figures in the Temple Church, representing a comly young knight in mail, and a flowing mantle with a kind of cowl; his hair neatly curled at the sides; his crown appears shaved. His hands are elevated in a praying posture, and on his left arm is a short, pointed shield charged with three water-bougets. He has on his left side a long sword, and the armor of his legs, which are crossed, has a ridge, or a seam up the front, continued over the knee. At his feet is a lion, and the whole figure measures six feet two inches..."[citation needed]

Magna Carta 800th Anniversary Biography

by Professor Nigel Saul

"Robert de Ros (c. 1182-1226/7), kinsman through marriage of Eustace de Vesci, and the son of Everard de Ros and Roese, née Trussebut, was a Yorkshire lord, the owner of extensive estates centring on Helmsley in the North Riding of Yorkshire and Wark-on-Tweed in Northumberland. He was married, at an unknown date, to Isabella, an illegitimate daughter of William the Lion, king of Scotland, and widow of Robert III de Brus.

"In the early 1200s Robert is found co-operating actively with King John, witnessing a number of his charters, chiefly at locations in northern England, and in 1203 assisting in the king’s defence of Normandy, where by descent from his mother he held the hereditary office of bailiff and constable of Bonneville-sur-Touques in the lower part of the duchy. In 1205, however, a year of rising political tension, there are signs that his relations with the king were worsening, and John ordered the seizure of his lands and, apparently shortly afterwards, had his son taken hostage. Robert, a little later, recovered his lands, but an indication that he might have been interested in leaving England is given by his acquisition of a licence to pledge his lands for crusading. It is not known, however, if he ever actually did embark for the East.

"In 1212 Robert seems to have entered a monastery, and on 15 May that year John handed over custody of his lands to one Philip de Ulcot. His monastic profession, however, cannot have lasted for long, for on 30 January 1213 John appointed him sheriff of Cumberland, and later in the same year he was one of the witnesses to John’s surrender of his kingdom to the pope. In 1215, as relations between the king and the baronial opposition worsened, John seems to have tried to keep Robert on his side, ordering one of his counsellors to try to secure the election of Robert’s aunt as abbess of Barking. By April, however, Robert was firmly on the baronial side, attending the baronial muster at Stamford and, after June, being nominated to the committee of twenty-five.

"When war between the king and his opponents broke out towards the end of the year, Robert was active on the baronial side, forfeiting his lands as a result and suffering the capture of his son at the battle of Lincoln in May 1217. After Louis returned to France, Robert submitted to the new government and recovered most, although not all, of his lands. He witnessed the third and definitive reissue of Magna Carta on 11 February 1225. Sometime before 1226 he retired to a monastery and he died either in that year or early in 1227. At some stage he was received into the ranks of the Templars and on his death he was buried in the Temple Church in London, where a few years earlier William Marshal, the one-time Regent had been buried. An effigy in that church sometimes associated with him dates from at least a generation later.

"Robert is an enigmatic individual who had close ties with Eustace de Vesci but did not openly join the rebellion until just before Runnymede. He probably felt a conflict between his sense of loyalty to his fellow Northerners and his obligation of obedience to the king."

~ Biography courtesy of Professor Nigel Saul and the Magna Carta 800th Anniversary Committee

Timeline

c1172: born (aged 13 in 1185)[1]

c1191: married Isabel of Scotland[1]

1196: after a battle between men of Phillip Augustus and those of Richard I, Richard handed over to Robert's keeping Hugh de Chaumont, a wealthy knight and intimate friend of Phillip Augustus. Robert imprisoned him in his castle of Bonneville. But his servant, the keeper of the castle, William D'Epinay, was bribed into conniving at Hugh's escape. Richard, angry at the loss of so important a prisoner, ordered D'Epinay to be hanged, and imposed a fine of 1200 marks on his master. 240 marks of this were still unpaid on 29 Jan 1204 when King John remitted 100 marks.[27]

before 1200: birth of William de Roos, Robert's son and heir[1]

Immediately after accession [April 1199], John sent Robert and others to William the Lion of Scotland, Robert's father-in-law, to arrange an interview between the two sovereigns for 20 Nov 1199.

  • November 1200: As the son-in-law of William the Lion, King of Scotland, he was of his escort into England November 1200, to do homage.[citation needed]

In succeeding years Robert witnessed several royal charters, chiefly in north England, but on 7 Oct 1203 was at Bonneville-sur-Touques,[28] He might have been in John's service at Normandy later that year, returning to England before 22 Feb 1204, when he was at York.[29]

Spring 1205: difficulty with John, possibly about the balance of his fine, and his lands were seized,[30] but an order for their restoration was soon issued.[31]

13 Feb 1207: For some reason, possibly on account of the arrears of his fine, his son Robert was in the king's hands as a hostage. Robert seems to have let prisoner Thomas de Bekering escape, and on 28 Dec 1207 was acquitted of a fine of 300 marks for his new offence.[32]

10 Apr 1209: sent with others by the king to meet the king of Scotland.[33]

1212: Robert seems to have assumed the monastic habit

  • 15 May: John therefore handed over custody of his lands to Philip de Ulecot.[34] (also "Oldcoates"[22]) His profession cannot have lasted long ...

30 Jan 1213: king committed to him the forest and county of Cumberland.[35]

25 Feb 1213: on a commission to inquire into grievances for exactions of royal officers in Lincoln and York.[36] Among other royal favors he received this year was a license to send across the seas a ship laden with wool and hides to bring back wine in exchange.[37] He interceded with the king in favor of William of Aumale, his suzerain in Holderness, and got him safe-conduct as a preliminary to a reconciliation.[38]

03 Oct 1213: a witness of John's surrender of the kingdom to the pope, and one of 12 men who tried to compel John to keep promises in favor of English church.[39]

1214 - early 1215: continued in John's service as Sheriff of Cumberland[citation needed]

He was loyal and closely associated to King John, but was one of his most vigorous opponents in the matter of Magna Carta, being one of the 25 elected to see its provisions were obeyed.[citation needed]

  • 10 Apr 1215: received several royal manors in Cumberland and Westmoreland.[40] About the same time John, ordered John de Roches to do all that he could to secure the election of Robert's aunt as abbess of Barking, and in no wise permit the election of the sister of Robert Fitz Walter, one of the baronial leaders[41] But John failed, despite these favours, to secure Ros's adherence in his struggle with the barons.
  • week following 19 April: According to Roger of Wendover,[42] Ros was one of the chief "incentors of this pest" (i.e., the baronial resistance of the king) in the meeting of the magnates at Stamford. He was one of the 25 barons elected to promote observance of the Great Charter, and took part in the resistance against John after his absolution from his oath to the pope. Consequently, Innocent IV excommunicated him in January 1216.[citation needed] another piece of unsourced info said: For this he was excommunicated by Pope Innocent III.

1215: Wark Castle was burned by King John, since the owner Robert de Ros had signed Magna Carta. It was rebuilt and later held under royal control.[43]

1216: After king's success in the north earlier in the year, a castle belonging to Robert was one of the only two that remained in the possession of the barons in the north.

  • 27 Jan: John granted his lands to William, Earl of Aumale.[44] He was summoned to deliver up Carlisle Castle, and expressed his readiness to do so, merely asking for a safe conduct for an interview, which the king promised.[45]
  • 12 Apr: John repeated offer but led to nothing. Robert held the government of Northumberland, and seems to have continued his resistance even after John died.

May 1217: son William was captured at Lincoln. Robert eventually submitted, and Henry III commanded his manors of Sowerby, Carleton, and Oulsby to be restored to him on 23 July 1218, and orders to different bailiffs of the king to allow him to hold his lands unmolested were issued on 22 Nov 1220.[46]

Feb 1221: summoned to help beseige and destroy Skipsea Castle.[47]

1222: seems to complain to the king that the King of Scotland was encroaching on English territory, and a commission of inquiry was appointed.[48]

  • 24 May: Whether the Sheriff of Cumberland, apparently Walter Bishop of Carlisle, delayed to restore his lands through jealousy, or they were seized again, their restoration was ordered again.

23 May 1222: king forbade same Sheriff of Cumberland to exact tallages from royal manors given to Robert.

06 Feb 1225: renewed order to give Robert seisin of these royal manors seems to indicate king's former orders disobeyed.[49]

  • 11 Feb: Robert witnessed the third reissue of the Great Charter.
  • 26 Feb: Henry ordered barons of the exchequer to deduct revenues of the royal manors given to Robert de Ros from the county firm owed by Walter Bishop of Carlisle.

before 18 Jan 1227: Robert takes the monastic habit again.[50]

  • He died that year and was buried in the Temple Church at London. In the modern era, there are reportedly no tombs or burials in Temple Church in central London. Only effigies can be seen there today. (See above.)

Research Notes

Are Helmsley Castle and Hamlake Manor the same place?

"of Helmsley, or Hamlake, in Yorkshire"[19]

Apparently so:

"He married Adeline l’Espec, co-heiress of her brother Walter l’Espec, founder of Rievaulx Abbey, and left a son, Robert de Ros the elder, who is well known for his benefactions to the newly founded community of Knights Templars. Everard de Ros, son of Robert de Ros, was like his father, specially charitable to the Templars, and Robert de Ros, surnamed Fursan, son of Everard, by Rose co-heiress of the Trussebuts, built the castles of Helmsley (anciently called Hamelac) in north Yorkshire, and Werke in Northumberland. He it was, too, who in 1217 gave “to God and the Blessed Mary and the brethren of the Soldiery of the Temple, my manor of Ribston, with the advowson of the Church of the same vill and the hamlet of Walshford with the mills of the same hamlet,” etc.[51]

Sources

  1. 1.0 1.1 1.2 1.3 1.4 1.5 1.6 1.7 1.8 Richardson's Royal Ancestry, Volume IV, pages 487-489 ROOS #5. Isabel of Scotland (citation below)
  2. Lewis (citation below) gives their marriage date as "circa February 1191" and names Isabel's mother as "Isabel de Avernal", with citations to Richardson, but Richardson does not include her mother's given name and gives their marriage as just "1191".
  3. Robert's wife is not named in Richardson (Royal Ancestry, Vol. IV, p 301 PARR #6), but his children are: William, Robert (Knt.), Isabel, and Ida.
  4. Magna Charta Sureties, p. 132
  5. 5.0 5.1 5.2 5.3 5.4 Noted in Professor Saul's article, above.
  6. 6.0 6.1 Magna Charta Sureties, p. 129
  7. 7.0 7.1 7.2 7.3 Stapleton, Magni Rotuli Scaccarii Normaniae, vol I, pp. cxl, clxiv, vol II, p. lxxvii
  8. 8.0 8.1 Robert de Roos, "Our Royal, Titled, Noble, and Commoner Ancestors and Cousins" (website, compiled by Mr. Marlyn Lewis, Portland, OR; accessed December 24, 2017)
  9. 9.0 9.1 From Wikipedia (citation below), citing Nicholas Vincent, "Ros, Robert de (d. c. 1270)", Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (25 May 2006)
  10. Hunsingore is also referenced in the 2009 blog post (citation below)
  11. Patent Rolls, p. 96b
  12. Sheriff of Cumberland 1213 is supported; Served 1213-15 (which was also in biography) is not. List of Sheriffs on Wikipedia[1] shows only one entry for Robert de Ros:
    • 30 January 1213: Robert de Ros[1]
      • Michaelmas 1213–1214: Alan de Caudebec[1]
    citation [1] is to "Hughes, A. (1898). List of Sheriffs for England and Wales from the Earliest Times to A.D. 1831.e London: Eyre & Spottiswoode."
  13. 13.0 13.1 13.2 Ancestral Roots, p. 88, 148
  14. 14.0 14.1 14.2 Helmsley Castle, p. 24
  15. GRS 3.03, Automated Archives, CD#100
  16. Magna Charta Sureties, p. 129
  17. Close Rolls i. 194
  18. Close Rolls, i.441
  19. 19.0 19.1 Chisholm (citation below)
  20. Patent Rolls, p. 38
  21. Close Rolls, i.269
  22. 22.0 22.1 From his article in Wikipedia (citation below)
  23. W. Glyn Thomas
  24. Close Rolls, I.117b
  25. Text appears to be based on a 2009 blog post (citation below); the blog post includes source information.
  26. Hunter, Rotuli Selecti, p. 17
  27. Patent Rolls, p. 38
  28. Charter Rolls, p. 111b
  29. Charter Rolls, pp. 114a, 119b; Rotuli Normaniae, p. 113
  30. Close Rolls, i 246
  31. Close Rolls, i 31
  32. Close Rolls i. 99
  33. Patent Rolls, p. 91
  34. Close Rolls, i. 116b
  35. Patent Rolls, p. 96b
  36. Patent Rolls, p. 97
  37. 9 Sep Close Rolls, i. 149b
  38. 1 Oct, Patent Rolls, p. 104b
  39. Charter Rolls, p. 195; Litene Contuarienses, Rolls Ser. i.21
  40. Close Rolls i. 194
  41. Close Rolls, i.202
  42. Close Rolls, ii.114
  43. Medieval Castles, Towers, Peles and Bastles of Northumberland, p. 16
  44. Close Rolls, i. 246b
  45. Close Rolls, i.269
  46. Close Rolls, i.441
  47. Close Rolls, i.474b
  48. Close Rolls, i496b
  49. Close Rolls, ii.15
  50. Close Rolls, ii1666
  51. Too cool! When you copy text, it pastes along with the following:
    Read more: http://mymedievalgenealogy.blogspot.com/2009/11/robert-de-ros-knight-templar.html#ixzz5Z7IQMkKu
  • Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, 5 vols., ed. Kimball G. Everingham (Salt Lake City, Utah: the author, 2013), Volume IV, pages 300, 484-486, 586
  • Charles Cawley, MedLands, Foundation for Medieval Genealogy. MedLands is a prosopography of medieval European noble and royal families.
  • MCP 1 Weis, F.L. (1999). The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215, (5th ed). Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc.amazon.com
  • Chisholm, H. (1911). "Ros (family)." The Encyclopaedia Britannica: A Dictionary of Arts, Sciences, Literature and General Information, (Vol. 23, pp.720). Encyclopaedia britannica Co. Google eBook.

Acknowledgements

Click the Changes tab to see edits to this profile; from that list, click WikiTree IDs other than Ros-162 to see changes to those profiles prior to being merged.

Thank you to everyone who contributed to this profile.

Magna Carta Project

Robert de Roos is a Magna Carta surety baron and has the Magna Carta Project as a manager.
See Ros-162 Descendants for profiles of his descendants that have been improved and categorized by the Magna Carta project and are in a project-approved trail to a Gateway Ancestor. See this index for links to other surety barons and category pages for their descendants. See the project's Base Camp for more information about Magna Carta trails.
Magna Carta Project Maintenance Categories
  • Re-review needed (the profile needs lots of editing)
  • Source Check: Finished check of Lewis against Richardson. Lots of "Citation needed" still.


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Collaboration

On 12 Sep 2019 at 00:25 GMT Liz (Noland) Shifflett wrote:

On 28 Nov 2018 at 07:22 GMT Darlene (Athey) Athey-Hill wrote:

That'd be great, Liz. Thanks!

On 28 Nov 2018 at 02:49 GMT Liz (Noland) Shifflett wrote:

Anyone object if I put Robert on my to-do list for a major edit ?

I would do it much like Gilbert de Clare's - keeping Professor Saul's bio intact and ensuring Robert's vital genealogical information is easily found.

Cheers, Liz

On 23 Oct 2018 at 15:57 GMT Liz (Noland) Shifflett wrote:

no support for "Robert II" in profile. Anyone have a source that calls him that?

On 23 Apr 2018 at 00:48 GMT Liz (Noland) Shifflett wrote:

On 26 Aug 2016 at 19:02 GMT Liz (Noland) Shifflett wrote:

MedLands has born 1172-73/married 1191.
  • The Rotuli de Dominabus of 1185 records “uxor Everardi de Ros que fuit filia Willelmi Trussebut…xxxv” and her land “in Strowestone”, adding that she had "ii filios, primogenitus est xiii annorum et terra eius est in custodia Ranulfi de Glanville"[867].
  • The Chronicle of Melrose records the marriage in 1191 of "the king of Scots…his daughter Ysembel (the widow of Robert de Brus)" and "Robert de Ross" at Haddington[883].

On 26 Aug 2016 at 18:59 GMT Liz (Noland) Shifflett wrote:

Thanks Sunny! I checked Richardson's Royal Ancestry (Vol. IV, p 487) and the information in the profile matches what he has (1170-72 birth based on him being 13 in 1185 & of age in 1191 when he "had livery of his lands"). Looking at the fine print in RA, I don't see an IPM referenced, so I'm not sure where the 13 in 1185 came from.

I'm a bit baffled that the article by Professor Nigel Saul, Royal Holloway, University of London for the Magna Carta Trust and Richardson don't agree on dates (Saul's article does not elaborate on why he has b 1182; he also has marriage as 'date unknown'). Richardson speaks of her margaritum in relation with her 1191 m to Robert, so it seems that documentation would be his source for 1191, but that should have been available to Saul too.

On 26 Aug 2016 at 16:38 GMT Sunny (Trimbee) Clark wrote:

FYI: the Magna Carta Trust lists de Ros with different birth dates: "Robert de Ros (c. 1182-1226/7)" making his marriage date to Isabel and her birth date seem quite off, though. [1]

On 3 Jun 2016 at 17:23 GMT Bree Ogle wrote:

Thank-you Darlene! It explains why it just wasn't adding up:)

On 1 Jun 2016 at 21:19 GMT Darlene (Athey) Athey-Hill wrote:

In searching for information re: Gervasius, I came across an old post on Gen-Medieval, which is archived here: http://soc.genealogy.medieval.narkive.com/4YPG9drv/de-ros-roos-of-yorkshire. Basically someone posted in 2005 that Gervasius married a daughter of de Ros according to Pedigrees of the County Families of Yorkshire and West Riding, by Joseph Foster, published 1874. In 2007 another person asked if that was correct, to which John Ravilious replied, "While there certainly might be a Lowther-de Ros marriage, the chronology is a problem as given. Margaret de Brus, sister and coheiress of the last de Brus lord of Kendal, likely married Robert de Ros of Wark say 1240-1250, so it seems unlikely a son in law of theirs would have been active in 1217."

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