François Savoie
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François Savoie (abt. 1621)

François Savoie aka Savoye
Born about in Francemap
Son of [uncertain] and [uncertain]
[sibling(s) unknown]
Husband of — married about 1651 in Acadie, Nouvelle-Francemap
Descendants descendants
Died [date unknown] in Acadiemap [uncertain]
Profile last modified | Created 14 Apr 2010
This page has been accessed 31,966 times.
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François Savoie is an Acadian.
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Contents

Biography

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François Savoie migrated from France to Acadia.
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NOTICE: this profile is protected by the Acadian Project because of frequent duplication, attempts to add unsourced parents or is an historically important person (patriarch of the Acadian Savoie family), and is in the Top 100 highly viewed Acadian profiles. Please contact the Acadian Project before making any substantive changes. Thanks for helping make WikiTree the best site for accurate information.

François Savoie is the Ancestral Patriarch of the Acadian Savoie Family

François was born around 1621. [1] Regarding François' location of birth, Stephen White remains silent.[2]

However Massignon[3] speculates that he may have come from Martaizé, near Loudun, France because the name Savoie is among the many Acadian names that are found in the nearby Seigneury d'Aulnay (comprising of the villages of Angliers, Aulnay, Martaizé and La Chausée).[4] However, Francois' birth record has not been found.

François probably came to Acadia around 1643.[5][6] He married Catherine Lejeune approximately in 1651 in Acadia but the exact place is not known.[7][8] Between 1652 and 1670, they had 9 children: Françoise, Germain, Marie, Jeanne, Catherine, François, Barnabé, Andrée and Marie.[2]

While François and Catherine were raising their family, Port-Royal was captured in 1654 by Robert Sedgwick, who led 300 British soldiers and volunteers.[9]:

"The [French] soldiers at Port-Royal, who numbered about 130 … put up a brief defense against Sedgwick. Setting up an ambush between the landing site of the English troops and the fort, the Frenchmen fired on the attackers but proved no match for the experienced Roundheads. The French soon "took their heels to ye Fort." On August 16 the fort surrendered... Sedgwick granted honourable terms, allowing the defenders to march out of the fort with flags flying, drums beating, and muskets at the ready. The soldiers and employees working at the fort were offered transportation back to France and given enough pelts to cover their wages."[10]

Although the commander of Port-Royal left for France, most Acadians, including the Savoie family, remained in Acadia. They were permitted to retain their land and belongings and were guaranteed religious freedom.[10] Dunn describes life in Acadia during the 16 years of nominal British rule:

"During the years of British rule, most of the Port-Royal population moved upriver away from the town. Using the agricultural practices initiated under D'Aulnay, the Acadians dyked and cultivated extensive salt marshes along the river and raised livestock. Through necessity, residents had reached an accommodation with New England traders who had become their sole source for the goods that they could not produce themselves... New England traders exchanged their goods for Acadian produce and furs... There were seventy to eighty families in the Port Royal area in 1665."

By 1671 the British had ceded Acadia to France and French settlement resumed.[11] In the Port-Royal census of that year, François, 50 years of age, was listed as a plowman. His wife Catherine was 38. There were 9 children between the ages of 2 and 18 in the household.[1] The family homestead had 6 arpents[12] under cultivation and they had 4 cattle. It is not clear where the farm was located. By 1707, their son Germain had a farm upriver at the Belisle Marshes, east of the fort on the north bank of the Dauphin (Annapolis River).

The time and location of François’ death are not known.

“Most of François and Catherine's descendants remained at Port-Royal/Annapolis Royal, but they settled also at Minas, Chepoudy, and in the French Maritimes. At least 14 of their descendants emigrated to Louisiana from Halifax in 1765. More of them could be found in greater Acadia, the French Antilles, France, and especially in Canada after Le Grand Dérangement. ”[13]

Only one son, Germain, had sons of his own and spread the name Savoie in Acadie.

DNA Research

According to Family Tree DNA's French Heritage DNA project, two descendants have taken a yDNA test with resulting haplogroup being R-M269 (the most common European group) and one with R-Z367. These can be found in the YDNA portion of the site, on page 3. the Acadian yDNA project from Family Tree DNA shows the family to be R1B with both entries R-M269.[14]

The Italy DNA project at FamilyTreeDNA has the results for a male-line descendant of Carlo Alberto di Savoia Carignano (1798-1849) (WikiTree ID: Savoie-Carignano-1). Carlo Alberto di Savoia is a direct male-line descendant of Francois Savoie's hypothetical father, Tommaso di Savoia. See also Carlo Alberto's profile at Geni: https://www.geni.com/people/Carlo-Alberto-Amedeo-di-Savoia-VII-principe-di-Carignano/376411602640013414. This descendant's haplogroup is reported as E-M35 (formerly known as E3b)[15]

Timeline

c1621 birth, in France
1632 Treaty Saint-Germain-en-Laye cedes Acadia to France; Razilly brings ~300 elite men[16]
1636 Arrival of the first French families to settle permanently[3]
before 1651 arrival in Acadia
c1651 marriage to Catherine Lejeune, in Acadia
c1652 birth, daughter Françoise
1654 British capture Port-Royal; French settlement ceases[17]
c1654 birth, son Germain
c1657 birth, daughter Marie
c1658 birth, daughter Jeanne
c1659 birth, daughter Catherine
c1663 birth, son François
c1665 birth, son Barnabé
c1667 birth, daughter Andrée
1667-70 Treaty of Breda cedes Acadia to the French; settlement resumes[18]
c1670 birth, daughter Marie France
1671 residence, Port-Royal
c1??? death

Research Notes

The hypothetical connection to the Savoy and Bourbon families has either been insufficient or invalidated. It is not necessary to post any of these "sources" as they have all been reviewed and either disproven or insufficient.

  • It has been speculated that he is related to the Duke of Savoy, claiming and showing DNA records that are insufficient documentation or proof of this supposed connection and hypothesis. Actual DNA results have not shown any relationship with either Savoy or Bourbon.
Youtube video part I [Broken Link]
Youtube Video [Broken Link]
Email from DNA expert Denis Savard to Cindy Bourque Cooper on 8/29/23023 stating no proof to be disproven
Larry Compagna RootsWeb Page

Biographie

"Né en France vers 1621, François Savoie, est arrivé en Acadie vers 1643, et a épousé Catherine Lejeune vers 1651. Neuf enfants sont issus de leur mariage."[7]

Sources

  1. 1.0 1.1 (He was 50 years old at the time of the 1671 census.) Tim Hebert; Transcription of the 1671 Acadian Census, at Port-Royal, Acadie. 1671 Census Transcribed. The original census can be found at Census microfilm C-2572 of the National Archives of Canada “Acadie Recensements 1671 – 1752” Images 3-14.
    Francois SAVOYE, 50, wife, Catherine LeJEUNE 38; children: Francoise 18, Germain 17, Marie 14, Jeanne 13, Catherine 9, Françoise 8, Barabe 6, Andree 4, Marie 2; cattle 4, 6 arpents. Note: there is an error in this English translation; baby Marie is 11/2 years in the French Census (See image to the right).
  2. 2.0 2.1 White, Stephen A., Patrice Gallant, and Hector-J Hébert. Dictionnaire Généalogique Des Familles Acadiennes. Moncton, N.-B.: Centre D'études Acadiennes, Université De Moncton, 1999, Print. p. 1456-1457.
  3. 3.0 3.1 Massignon, Geneviève. "Les parlers français d'Acadie, enquête linguistique", Librairie Klincksieck, Paris, 1962, 2 tomes. p32 (first French families in Acadia; p36. Savoie is found in the Seigneury of d'Aulnay in France; p49 Savoie family
  4. Leclerc, Jacques, L'aménagement linguistique dans le monde, accessed at Les origines françaises des Acadiens
  5. Karen Theriot Reader François Savoie citing Bona Arsenault, HISTOIRE ET GENEALOGIE DES ACADIENS; 1625-1810; Ottawa, Editions Lemeac, 1978, 6 vols.; p. 794 (Port Royal);
    "Doubtlessly" originally from Martaizé, department of Vienne, France (cites Massignon, vol. 1, p. 49), Francois arrived in Acadia around 1643, and married around 1652 to Catherine LEJEUNE (no parents listed); they had nine children.
  6. Raymonde Blanchard. "Complexe Savoie: un court historique des Savoie de Néguac." Les Cahiers de la Société historique acadienne, décembre 2009 vol. 40 no.4, p. 147-148. accessed on 9 September 2019 at https://societehistoriqueacadienne.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/4004_total.pdf.
  7. 7.0 7.1 White, Stephen A. La généalogie des trente-sept familles hôtesses des ""Retrouvailles 94"", Les Cahiers de la Société historique acadienne, vol. 25, nos 2 et 3 (1994). SAVOIE, 37 Families
  8. Their first child was born in 1653. The estimated year of marriage is based on that.
  9. William I. Roberts, 3rd, “SEDGWICK, ROBERT,” in Dictionary of Canadian Biography, vol. 1, University of Toronto/Université Laval, 2003–, accessed November 20, 2013
  10. 10.0 10.1 Dunn, Brenda. A History of Port Royal / Annapolis Royal 1605-1800. Nimbus Publishing, p 23-24(1654 Capture of Port-Royal); p25-27;29 (the English period 1654-1670).
  11. In collaboration, “MORILLON DU BOURG,” in Dictionary of Canadian Biography, vol. 1, University of Toronto/Université Laval, 2003–, accessed November 20, 2013
  12. Statistics Canada defines an arpent as 0.845 acres. According to Clark (Clark, Andrew Hill, Acadia: The Geography of Early Nova Scotia to 1760. Madison: University of Wisconsin Press, 1968, p 87): "The arpent was a basic French unit of land measurement, both linear and areal, but its size at the time is uncertain. In length, 200 feet may be a rough equivalent for an arpent in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries; it was later standardized to 192 feet. An areal arpent may have been something less than an acre (the usual equivalent was .845 acres) although it has been given the equivalent of as much as an acre and a half in some twentieth century definitions." Note: An arpent in an old French dictionary from early 1900s is described as between 30 and 51 ares (1 are = 100 square metres), depending on the country.
  13. Steven A. Cormier. "Acadians Who Found Refuge in Louisiana, February 1764-early 1800s" , Acadians in Gray. Book 3. Copyright (c) 2007-13 accessed on 9 September 2019 at http://www.acadiansingray.com/Acadians%20of%20LA-intro-3b.html#SavoieB3
  14. Estes, Roberta and Marie Rundquist. Acadian and Amerindian Ancestry DNA Project - Y-DNA Classic Chart. Acadian and Amerindian Ancestry DNA Project. Y-DNA Results, Accessed 12/5/2021.
  15. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Italy?iframe=yresults Disproven DNA connection
  16. George MacBeath, Biography – RAZILLY, ISAAC DE – Volume I (1000-1700) – Dictionary of Canadian Biography Toronto/Université Laval, 2003–, accessed November 20
  17. William I. Roberts, 3rd, “SEDGWICK, ROBERT,” in Dictionary of Canadian Biography, vol. 1, University of Toronto/Université Laval, 2003–, accessed November 20, 2013
  18. In collaboration, “MORILLON DU BOURG,” in Dictionary of Canadian Biography, vol. 1, University of Toronto/Université Laval, 2003–, accessed November 20, 2013

See also:





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DNA Connections
It may be possible to confirm family relationships with François by comparing test results with other carriers of his Y-chromosome or his mother's mitochondrial DNA. However, there are no known yDNA or mtDNA test-takers in his direct paternal or maternal line. It is likely that these autosomal DNA test-takers will share some percentage of DNA with François:

Have you taken a DNA test? If so, login to add it. If not, see our friends at Ancestry DNA.



Comments: 61

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While I don't want to spelunk in pandora's box re the notional savoyard origins, but, I respectfully suggest to the Acadia Project experts and others opining here that the apparent yDNA results "disproving" deathbed claim of noble paternity.... aren't disprovable, even by a negative result. Disprove is a strong word. Too strong, I think. I don't see any disproof given here, just counterclaims and assertions.

So many reasons why there could be a yDNA discrepancy, that doesn't prove or disprove anything without knowing exactly where it happened in ALL the generations in-between test subjects. Some:

  • legal or illegal adoption, with or without genetic admixture (eg adopting nephew)
  • teen pregnancy
  • adult premarital sex leading to unacknowledged noble bastards (extremely common!)
  • covert infidelity (ie without spousal consent or publicity)
  • overt infidelity (ie with spousal consent or publicity)
  • various flavors of surrogacy (either mom or dad) to include infertility workarounds, injury/incapacity, then-common venereal diseases etc.
  • prostitution
  • rape of family women by strangers / men outside family
  • rape (or other coercion) by family men of female slaves, hostages, wards, servants, local peasants etc
  • incest
  • conquest/prisoners of war/capture by piracy
  • certain interracial or interfaith relationships, in radically less-permissive eras

To further complicate, in my limited experience researching these situations in many nooks and crannies of my ancestral family tree, where there is one type of situation from the list above... there is usually more than one. When it rains it pours.

All that said, to tip my hand or argue against myself: I think we should be habitually skeptical of all un-sourced or un-evidenced claims of clandestine or scandalized noble origin. Including this one. This is sadly common in North America (some regions seemingly much more frequently than others) and upon laborious time-wasting digging, the claims so rarely prove true. My cynical impression is: it seems to be less true the more strenuously claimed.

As best we can, we should operate entirely on evidenced facts, not legend or faith, here on WikiTree.

Respectfully,

posted by Isaac Taylor
edited by Isaac Taylor
To reply to myself, is it not fairly common for dit names and surnames in Acadie to have nothing to do with paternity, rather residence or just professional location pre emigration? Couldn't this family have just been from the Savoy, not of the house?
posted by Isaac Taylor
Yes dit names are often due to residence or profession. And to differentiate a son from a father as well.

As to your DNA comment prior, I asked Acadian Project coordinator Denis Savard, DNA expert, to review the DNA statements and also the conclusions in the Research Notes. He does agree that disproven might be too strong a word since as you both point out, the DNA can neither prove nor disprove a relationship. However, the DNA presented doesn't match the relationship either. I modified the language around that point.

We agree with you that actual factual evidence is needed beyond speculation, hearsay and theoretical ideas. Each time these ideas are brought up, we ask for contemporaneous documents and facts with sources.

Thank you for your comments.

posted by Cindy (Bourque) Cooper
La généalogie de François Savoie aux origines mystérieuses

https://youtu.be/mPTWKq4O5Pg Cela met beaucoup de choses en perspective.

posted by R Leroux
Dear R., this video link is broken. Marked private now. Do we have another link?
posted by Isaac Taylor
Museo del Risorgimento : catalogo del materiale 1931

Page 107 Line 46

http://asa.archiviostudiadriatici.it/islandora/object/libria:198333/datastream/PDF/content/libria_198333.pdf

If that link doesnt work try this one then click PDF to download it.

http://asa.archiviostudiadriatici.it/islandora/object/libria%3A198333/pages?display=list&page=8

posted by Mary Despres
edited by Mary Despres
Mary, I could not open the PDF file from either link, getting security warnings and other messages. I also tried the DC version on the second link and got a header but no content. Perhaps you could create a WikiTree free space page and copy the contents into it. Then link the space page here. Cindy
posted by Cindy (Bourque) Cooper
Cindy try this link

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YZvz7Aou1C9RC4qqzVMmdemDEE84YtvZ/view?usp=drivesdk

Book page 107 (PDF page 135)

Line 46: Medaglione con fotografia (da stampa) del Duca Francesco Giacinto (1622-1638)

posted by Mary Despres
edited by Mary Despres
I contacted the Ordini Dinastici Real Casa Savoia to inquire about the birth year descrepancy for Francesco Giacinto Duca di Savoia, and their response included a link to the Foundation of the Mauritian Order Archive http://www.ordinemauriziano.it/archivio-storico-dellordine-mauriziano

(See full transcript of correspondence in discussion section here) https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/vitals/LHXQ-QBY

posted by Mary Despres
edited by Mary Despres
I responded to you about the first link below.

Regarding the second link with correspondence, I did find the letter and here is the translation, which is not about Francois, but where you would look for further information (Google translate): I inform you that it is correct, as regards all the acts of the period of the Kingdom of Italy (1494-1946), you must necessarily contact the Mauritian Order Foundation, (Heritage Service), Piazza Magellano 1, Turin." That is the first link you posted with general information about that service although no specific information is provided about Francois on that page. Did you search for something useful? If you have found it, please provide the specific URL(s) so everyone can access it. Thank you, Cindy

posted by Cindy (Bourque) Cooper
Cindy thank you so much for your response. My original message to the Grand Chancellery is also in the transcript. In it, I inquire about the 1622 birth year for Francois Hyacinth, which they confirmed it is correct. Unfortunately It appears that the records in the archive are not available to view online. The archive can only be accessed in person by appointment. I thought it would be a good idea to share the resource for others who may be in or near the area in the future. I do wish I had the means to travel there, but being in my situation its unlikely to ever happen for me.
posted by Mary Despres
edited by Mary Despres
Francois Savoie of Acadia is likely the same person as Francois Hyacinth Savoy, son of Vittorio Amadeo I and Christine of France

Key points to support this hypothesis are as follows:

1. The established fact that the oral tradition originated from Francois children (given the MRCA and geological distance between the families of descendent recounts)

2. Evidence overwhelmingly indicates that Francois Hyacinth was born in 1622, and Francois Savoie was born around the same time. This also means that Francois Hyacinth would have been 16 years old in 1638 when he was declared dead, cause of death is unknown. If he did flee the monarchy, It is likely he went into hiding somewhere in france for a few years before migrating to acadia around 1641

3. The phoenetic similarity of the the names Francois (Hyacinth) Savoy and Francois Savoie. And despite the possible existence of the Savoie surname outside of the monarchy in the early 1600's, the fact that no birth or baptismal record for a Francois Savoie has ever been found.

4. The recounted details of the oral tradition indicate that Francois fled some sort of impending or established royal succession. The oral tradition also mentions the name of Thomasso Savoy Carignan, a detail which might have somehow been unintentionally misconstrued in the recollection process throughout the passing generations.

5. In the 16th century abandonment or betrayal of the monarchy was considered a criminal act of high treason which was punishible by death. A mother serving as regent for a son who commited treason would have been punished for his crime by either death or imprisonment. This gives plausibility to the empty casket aspect of the hypothesis.

6. Francois might have left the monarchy due to the circumstances surrounding the war over his succession. His uncle was determined to take the duchy by any means necessary, even if it meant murder. When Francois heard about his uncles plan to capture his mother, he likely fled out of fear for his life.

Research into the potential royal ancestry of Francois Savoie continues. What began as a simple hypothesis on the identity and origins of Francois has grown into a body of evidence featured in an informational video series.

Francois Savoie - The Lost Duke of Savoy Part 1 https://youtu.be/WyYQjglNcgk

Francois Savoie - The Lost Duke of Savoy Part 2 https://youtu.be/XnkQGni8S7g

Francois Savoie - Compelling Evidence that Francois Hyacinth did NOT die at age 6 Part 1 https://youtu.be/XTz5cEaru0Q

Francois Savoie - Compelling Evidence that Francois Hyacinth did NOT die at age 6 Part 2 https://youtu.be/YkTzGU-YA4w

Francois Savoie Controversy and DNA Analysis https://youtu.be/Za4GJdLgFO0

posted by Mary Despres
edited by Mary Despres
Mary Despres,

1. The source of the oral tradition is one person and no documentation of the oral tradition exists before the 1950s. Fiction. 2. Hyacinth died at the age of 6. This is proven in numerous direct Italian sources. Your source that he died at the age of 16 is yourself - and it is based on pure fiction 3. Yes, Savoie and Savoia are phonetically similar. And its quite possible there is a common ancestor between the two, but it would be at least several hundred years before the fiction you propose. As more and more French records are indexed, we now have in excess of 40 church records indicating various "Savoie" in the Loudon region of France between 1600 and 1650. The family name exists there independent of the Savoias in Italy. And coincidentally, Loudon is the region from which Aulnay recruited most of his Acadian settlers in that same timeframe. Once again - you propose pure fiction. 4. Again, the oral traditions are not rooted in any semblance of genealogical accepted evidence. The tradition appears to be completely contemporary with no trace of it before the 1950s. 5. You're now claiming the tomb of the 6 year old Hyacinth in Turin is empty??? Oh my lord.'

All the videos you repeatedly post are of your own creation in attempt to generate support for your fantastical hypotheses. They are entertaining, but of zero genealogical consequence.

On another board, it was show that your own tree had dozens if not hundreds of errors because you didn't do the work. You simply copied other people's bogus trees. You were told by the experts there to do the work and flesh out your tree. You have not done so.

And finally, atDNA cannot be reliably used beyond 5 or 6 generations. You are attempting to use it for 10 to 14 generations. At one point a few years ago, you agreed those efforts were futile and a waste of time. Now, you're back on it.

posted by Raymond Lafleur
Raymond here is the answer to your comment

https://youtu.be/sGZi5wi0fEA

posted by Mary Despres
edited by Mary Despres
Its rather unfortunate that the manager of this profile is so quick to dismiss the possibility of the Francois Hyacinth hypothesis, especially without conducting a thorough evaluation of the research presented to support it.

For example these two videos feature advanced facial recontruction and comparison analysis, along with historical record and artifact data, as evidence that Francois Hyacinth was born in the year 1622 not 1632.

https://youtu.be/XTz5cEaru0Q

https://youtu.be/YkTzGU-YA4w

posted by Mary Despres
edited by Mary Despres
Perhaps it would be useful to also involve the profile managers of the possible father Savoia-19. That profile references this possible relationship too, and if it's true and confirmed, they would also want to have the connection made. They may have more resources available through the European Aristocrats project. Cindy
posted by Cindy (Bourque) Cooper
The information reflected in the research notes of this profile is misleading and it should be changed. Nothing has been "disproven" given the simple fact that the Savoia Y-DNA contributor's patrilineal descendency is not confirmed.
posted by Mary Despres
Cindy can you please add this link to the research notes? http://www.ordinemauriziano.it/archivio-storico-dellordine-mauriziano
posted by Mary Despres
Mary, this link goes to the general description of that website. It does not have any specific reference to Francois. If there is a specific reference somewhere in that site, could you provide the appropriate URL?

Thank you, Cindy

posted by Cindy (Bourque) Cooper
The reason for my insistance is because I am absolutely certain that the Savoia Y-DNA contributor is not a direct patrilineal descendent. My assertion has nothing to do with wishful thinking, I just know. I cannot explain to you how I know this in a logical sense, but I can assure you that thorough research into his descendency will confirm this.
posted by Mary Despres
Hi Mary, if there is nothing specific in the link directly relating to François Savoie, then you might be better to think about creating a free space profile to develop or document your theory. You can read about free space profiles and how to create them here: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Help:Free-Space_Profile

Unlike person profiles, which are designed for information specifically relating to a particular person, free space profiles are "anything pages" that can be used for supplementary information and organizing your research.

If you would like any help creating a free space profile, please let me know.

Ian

posted by I. Speed
The research notes on this profile stating that the hypothesis has been disproven is flat out false. In fact it has not been disproven, quite the opposite in fact. There is a whole series of videos that investigate the hypothesis. The two videos that you link do not show the actual DNA evidence.

Before you go posting presumptive assertions I recommend you take into consideration the broad spectrum of evidence presented in the ENTIRE video series on Francois Savoie.

https://youtube.com/channel/UCDqeHgV6YLspiUOSHIWvXMQ

posted by Mary Despres
HI, Mary, please reread the profile for the reasons why this relationship is disproven, in particular about the different DNA groups for these two families. Several people have tried to explain why in these comments as well. These were not presumptive assertions but based on actual DNA information about the families provided by well regarded DNA projects as well as lack of genealogical evidence. What would be needed at this point is actual original records that show the relationships of birth, or marriage in order to substantiate further claims. A marriage was mentioned a few months ago, is a link to that document available?

Cindy Bourque Cooper, co-leader Acadians Project

posted by Cindy (Bourque) Cooper
Cindy have you seen the DNA project featured in this video? The method of analysis used is consistent with the large scale statistical pattern criteria as described by Roberta Estes.

https://youtu.be/Za4GJdLgFO0

And in regards to the Y-DNA contributor who claims to be a patrlineal descendent of Carlo Alberto di Savoia Carignano, his descendency has not been officially verified.

As I said before, unless you've actually seen the research for yourself, your statements are presumptive assertions based on heresay.

posted by Mary Despres
edited by Mary Despres
Mary the Alberto do Savoia’s descendants direct patrilineal line has indeed been verified by the Italian Heritage DNA folks. Otherwise they would have not included him in the project.
posted by Raymond Lafleur
Raymond perhaps you would be so kind as to provide me with the contact information for whom I can get in touch with to verify this? If this is indeed a different project than the one I've already been in contact with.
posted by Mary Despres
edited by Mary Despres
Mary, you can easily find all the email addresses of the Italian Heritage DNA project on their homepage.
posted by Raymond Lafleur
I think to be fair to the numerous Francois Savoie descendants, the profile should state that:

"According to clan oral history, Francois Savoie made a deathbed confession that he is actually the son of Prince Tomasso. The effort to compile additional evidence to support this is still on-going."

posted by Bill Debuque
The deathbed confession hypothesis has been added to the research notes.
posted by Gisèle Cormier
Hoping this might help someone going through this source list? Just in case I'm sure everyone has already seen this.

Please message me if you have any suggestions or reading material (i.e history books) in which I can go through to help with this?

https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/sources/LHXQ-QBY

posted by Remi Bretzin
Hi, Remi, all of the sources on this link (except the Ancestry links I could not access) are now added to the profile under research notes. Of those which have been reviewed, the linkages are DISPROVEN by DNA evidence. Possibly the marriage source could have some use if the full source can be provided. Thank you for your interest in this story. Cindy Bourque Cooper, co-leader, Acadians Project
posted by Cindy (Bourque) Cooper
Mary Despres, you posted a video on YouTube with clips copied from the movie "The King" as a hypotheses for a fantastical theory that Francois Savoie is the son of an Italian prince? There is no hypothesis. It is fiction as has been demonstrated so many times by so many Acadian genealogical researchers. Furthermore, we know Francois Savoie's DNA haplogroup is R1b. We also know the Savoia royal family is E3b. I think those making desperate attempts to prove an Acadian ploughman is really an Italian prince, should pour their energies into more positive endeavors.
posted by Raymond Lafleur
Hi Raymond, I see on Francogene that Francois Savoie's haplogroup is R1b-M269 (http://www.francogene.com/ymtx/gfangfna.php?no=085608). Where did you find the Savoia royal family haplogroup? If that is the case that their haplogroups are different, the wording in Francois's profile should be changed to say that the theory that he was the son of Tomaso Francesco has been disproven (instead of "this has not been proven or disproven").

There is also the simple fact that Francois Savoie can not be the same person as Tommaso's son Francis Hyacinth, Duke of Savoy, because Francis died on 4 Oct 1638 in Turin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Hyacinth,_Duke_of_Savoy) (https://www.savoydelegation-usa.org/early-dukes-of-savoy.html). The theory that Francis's death was faked and instead he emigrated to Acadia is highly unlikely.

Edit: correction, Duke François Hyacinth de Savoie who died young in 1638 was the son of Victor Amadeus I, the brother of Tommaso Francesco di Savoia. (Tommaso is the man most often found in online trees as the supposed father of Francois Savoie of Acadia)

posted by Valerie (Fremmerlid) Penner
edited by Valerie (Fremmerlid) Penner
Answering my own question: The Italy DNA project at FamilyTreeDNA has the results for a male-line descendant of Carlo Alberto di Savoia Carignano (1798-1849) (WikiTree ID: Savoie-Carignano-1). Carlo Alberto di Savoia is a direct male-line descendant of Francois Savoie's supposed father, Tommaso di Savoia. See also Carlo Alberto's profile at Geni: https://www.geni.com/people/Carlo-Alberto-Amedeo-di-Savoia-VII-principe-di-Carignano/376411602640013414.

This descendant's haplogroup is reported as E-M35 (formerly known as E3b): https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Italy?iframe=yresults

So yes, this does not match Francois Savoie's haplogroup and this information should be added to the "DNA" section. And we should make it clear in the profile that Francois Savoie is not descended from the Savoia royal family, to help stop this myth from circulating online.

posted by Valerie (Fremmerlid) Penner
edited by Valerie (Fremmerlid) Penner
Hi, Valerie, thank you for this research. I've added it to his profile and revised wording to disproven. Cindy
posted by Cindy (Bourque) Cooper
Valerie, Francois Hyacinth Savoy was the son of Victor Amadeus I not Thomasso, and nothing has been disproven because the descendency of the Savoia Y DNA contributor could not be verified.
posted by Mary Despres
The Lost Duke of Savoy - A geneological hypothesis on the origins of Francois Joseph Savoie

https://youtu.be/6rWIT4NoG1I

posted by Mary Despres
Why is there a Blason des Savoie on the profile? There is no indication in the upload that permission was gotten to reproduce it.

https://reg.gg.ca/heraldry/pub-reg/project.asp?lang=f&ProjectID=736&ShowAll=1

posted by Danielle Liard
According to online article dated April 17, 2016 by Denis Savard at the link https://www.acadienouvelle.com/chroniques/2016/04/17/les-savoie/:
  • Il y a longtemps on a proposé que François Savoie puisse être originaire de Martaizé, mais cette hypothèse n’a toujours pas été démontrée. Cela demeure une supposition. En fait, nous ignorons toujours le lieu d’origine de la famille Savoie.
posted by [Living Lambert]
Thank you for bringing this to our attention. This hypothesis is already mentioned in the biography. That is why Martaizé appeared in the the birth location field which was marked as uncertain. In order to avoid confusion, Martaizé has been removed as place of birth until documented evidence is found.
posted by Gisèle Cormier
Correct. I believe the original source for this was linguist Genevieve Massignon in Les Parlers Français D'Acadie. In it, she hypothesizes that many of the Acadians, including Francois Savoie, came from south of Loudun, recruited by Aulnay. She says Aulnay's seigneurie was in the area of Martaize. And she is right. But, someone then extrapolated that to be "Francois Savoie was born in Martaize". A search of the parish register in Martaize shows no Savoie's. However, a search of nearby parishes, including Loudun itself shows about 30 entries for a "Savoie" between 1600 and 1650. However, no "Francois Savoie". The fact that "Martaize" was propagated all over the internet as Francois Savoie's birthplace fueled the "Tommaso di Savoia" is his father fantasy. Because, if there are no Savoie's in Martaize, then Francois Savoie MUST BE the sone of Tommaso di Savoia.
posted by Raymond Lafleur
There appears to be no concensus yet on the rules of evidence that should be applied to establish that Francois Savoie is indeed the son of Tomasso. So far, we have these:

1. Direct Evidence: a. The deathbed confession of Francois himself.

2. Circumstantial Evidence: a. The surname of Francois; b. The timeline of his life; c. The historical context of his migration to the New World; d. The accuracy of other similar oral ancestry claims; d. The autosomal DNA test results on three (3) of his direct descendants (see discussion at Geni).

This is not a criminal case. We do not have to prove anything beyond reasonable doubt.

Currently, however, there appears to be enough preponderance of evidence to conclude that, more likely than not, Francois Savoie is indeed the son of Tomasso.

posted by Bill Debuque
1. There is no direct evidence of a deathbed confession of Francois Savoie. Some say it exists via oral tradition through several descendants across a broad range of geography - Acadia to Maine to Louisiana. However, one person seems to be the source of this claim. For it to be even considered, a testimonials would need to be made and documented by those descendants directly. That has not been done. Even then, it would be a stretch to call this compendium of testimonials "direct evidence".

2. The surname of Francois is not circumstantial evidence. Savoie is not a rare or uncommon surname in western France. Of the parish registers indexed and online thus far, there are over 75 individual baptismal, marriage and death records of a "Savoie" between 1600 and 1650 in France, most in the western regions, specifically Maine-et-Loire and adjacent departments; precisely where researchers speculate is the region where Francois Savoie originated and where the Seigneur D'Aulnay recruited from. 3. Autosomnal DNA is useless 13/14 generations back. It works up to about 8 generations. YDNA needs to be performed and has been performed. Francois Savoie is not a match for Tommaso Savoy. 4. It is indeed not a criminal case, it is also not a place of fantasy and wishful thinking. Several serious Acadian genealogists have looked at this - Stephen White, Lucy LeBlanc Consentino, Denis Beauregard, and many others. They all say that any relationship between Francois Savoie and Tommaso Savoy is pure fiction. 5. There is no preponderance of any evidence to conclude Francois Savoie is the son of Tomasso Savoy. None.

posted by Raymond Lafleur
Savoy-Savoie-9 and Savoie-9 appear to represent the same person because: same date, spouse, child.

Savoie-9 is project protected so it must not be modified other than the merge.

posted by Richard Van Wasshnova
Francois has a father who is a myth?
posted by Richard Van Wasshnova
Savoie-1146 and Savoie-9 appear to represent the same person because: Same person
posted by Susan (Savoy) Chevarie
Savoye-17 and Savoie-9 appear to represent the same person because: same person
posted by [Living Bard]
Savoye-9 and Savoye-17 do not represent the same person because: wrong savoye
posted by [Living Bard]
I have removed Tommasco Francesco Savoia as father and created project protected unknown profiles as placeholders to help prevent incorrect parents from reappearing due to merges.
posted by Roland Arsenault
The parental link seems to have returned.
posted by Donna (Friebel) Storz
Savoie-807 and Savoie-9 are not ready to be merged because: Death year varies considerably, and to a lesser extent the feminine form of Francoise used in 807 (which may be just the non-standardized spelling of the period.)
posted by Vincent Courtney
Savoie-807 and Savoie-9 appear to represent the same person because: Same birth date and place, slight difference in date of death, but obviously intended to be the same person.
posted by John Atkinson