William (Say) de Say (abt. 1133 - bef. 1177)

Born about 1133 in England

Ancestors

Descendants

Died before 1 Aug 1177 before about age 44 in Kimbolton, Huntingdonshire, , England

Biography

Sir William II Say was a member of the aristocracy in England.

Birth and Parents

William was born about 1135. ^[1]

William was son and heir of Beatrice de Mandeville and her second husband, William de Say. ^[2]

Official Acts

"WILLIAM DE SAY II, 1st son and heir, first appears as a party to the confirmation by his father of Hugh de Beauchamp's grant to St. Neot's, perhaps towards the end of 1144. Between 1150 and 1160 he entered into an agreement with the monks of Ramsey to grant them rents in Norfolk and elsewhere, his mother Beatrice assenting. He paid scutage in 1161-62 under Cambs and Hunts. In 1166 he returned his Carta under Hunts. He accounted in 1167-68 under Hunts for 34 s. in respect of the aid to marry the King's daughter, and, about 1175 was witness to a charter in favour of Buckland Priory. ^[3]

Marriage

The name and parentage of his wife are unknown. ^[3]

His wife is unknown. ^[1]

Lands

William de Say was of Kimbolton, Huntingdonshire, and Saham, Norfolk. ^[2]

Ramsey Abbey

William and his mother, Beatrice, made donations to Ramsey Abbey. This was the Abbey previously attacked and ravaged by his father and his maternal uncle, Geoffrey de Mandeville, the 1st Earl of Essex. It is possible that they were atoning for the evil deeds of the past. ^[1]

1177 Death

William was dead by 1177. ^[1]

He died s.p.m. shortly before 1 August 1177." ^[3]

William de Say died shortly before 1 August 1177 ^[2]

Issue

Richardson reports that William de Say and his wife Beatrice had two daughters, Beatrice and Maud ^[2] Jean's site confirms these two -- Beatrice the elder, and Matilda. ^[1] Burkeitoo identifies the daughters as Beatrice and Maud. ^[4]

1. Beatrice. Reported by Richardson. ^[2] Identified as the elder. ^[1] Beatrix married Geoffrey FitzPiers ^[4] Geoffrey Fitz Piers, the husband of Beatrice was a great favorite of King Henry II, King Richard and King John. He served as justiciar of England 1198 to 1214. He was able to ensure that the estate of William de Say was given, for the most part, to his wife. Through her, he was able to claim the de Mandeville inheritance and the title Earl of Essex. ^[1]
2. Maud. Reported by Richardson. ^[2] Addressed as Matilda. ^[1] Maud married William de Bocland. ^[4]

Jonet

Sources for William de Say do not identify an additional daughter Jonet. However, sources for Jonet identify a William de Say as her parent.

Research Notes

No Marriage to Aufrica

William did not marry Aufrica daughter of William of Scotland. She did marry a William de Say, but this was William his nephew, son of his brother Geoffrey. This is clear when you consider that William and Aufrica had a son William who, if he was the son of this William, would have inherited his estates instead of the two daughters Beatrice and Matilda.^[1]

Sources

1. ↑ ^{1.0 1.1 1.2 1.3 1.4 1.5 1.6 1.7 1.8} http://www.jeaniesgenealogy.com/2016/07/the-de-say-ancestry-of-thomas-dudley.html
2. ↑ ^{2.0 2.1 2.2 2.3 2.4 2.5} Douglas Richardson. Royal Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, 5 vols, ed. Kimball G. Everingham (Salt Lake City: the author, 2013), volume IV, page 561 SAY #4i
3. ↑ ^{3.0 3.1 3.2} Geoffrey White, The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the United States, Vol. 11, (London : St. Catherine's Press, 1949) 465.
4. ↑ ^{4.0 4.1 4.2} Sir Bernard Burke, Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited, and Extinct Peerages, Burke's Peerage, Ltd., London, 1883, p. 476, Saye, or Say, Barons Saye