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Ancestry Discussion - Shawnee Heritage

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Because Ancestry.com has announced that they will be discontinuing Message Boards, this free space page was created to archive an important thread cited elsewhere on WikiTree. This text originally appeared at: "Don Greene, Noel Schutz, "Shawnee Heritage" " https://www.ancestry.com/boards/topics.ethnic.natam.nations.shawnee.shawneenat/169.1.1?viewType=FLAT_VIEW


sciman Posted: 13 Sep 2009 10:37 AM

I'd appreciate any comment on the recently published massive work of Don Greene and Noel Schutz called "Shawnee Heritage". I stumbled across some findings regarding a guy who is said to have been adopted before 1755 who only came out in 1802. He's got in this telling a rather large and very specific itinerary of involvements as a warrior nearly everywhere there were conflicts for over 50 years. The eBook rests on a server with forums full of pornography, so I tend to be doubtful of the credibility of the authors? Any comments would be much appreciated. steve AT enthuz.com


kdenning2001 Posted: 12 Mar 2010 8:56 PM

These books written by Don Greene and Noel Schultz are not documented information. I would never use these books due to lack of credibility. Don Greene has written about several surnames of the Shawnee people, mamy of my own family and his information is wrong. He has written a white family in as being Shawnee who were never Shawnee and the records show they came from Baden, Germany. Re: Don Greene, Noel Schutz, "Shawnee Heritage"


Laverne Piatt Posted: 19 Jul 2011 1:29 AM

There are such egregious errors in "Shawnee Heritage" that I would not believe it if the book told me Tecumseh were Shawnee. How can a man whose male descendants are all R1b (old designation, Y-DNA) and a woman whose female descendants are Haplogroup U (most prevalent European mtDNA haplogroup) have a dozen children who are half Shawnee? And the couple's son-in-law, Wilhelm Maffett from Germany, is also Shawnee! The authors owe readers an explanation and an apology and a refund.


kdenning2001 Posted: 11 Aug 2011 7:50 PM I agree, many of what he has in his books come from message boards where a person has posted a family story, and he re-writes it and puts it in a book as fact. Example is Jerry Pope, a well known fraud with the Shawnee people, Jerry Pope who calls himself "chief hawk pope" had stated that his grandfather, Reva Pope, was the last full chief of the Shawnee. However, upon research into Reva Pope and his line, that family came from Baden Germany. No where in his line is there a Shawnee. There is also a person who is doing DNA tests on people, claiming to be able to prove non Shawnees as decendants of Bluejacket, the DNA does not come back as a match, but the person claims it is "close enough" and therefore tells them they are a Bluejacket decendant. The Shawnee tribes in Oklahoma have been flooded with demands from non Shawnees to be recognized as a member of the tribes because of this bogus DNA claim. It all boils down to money... One other note, Don Greene has began his own "tribe" if that is what you wish to call it. Re: Don Greene, Noel Schutz, "Shawnee Heritage"


EasternGenealogist Posted: 15 Oct 2011 3:11 PM

1. Where is your book all full of sources??

2. Join WeRelate.org and post your sources on pages where everyone can read and not have to re-invent the wheel or depend on unsourced books because it is the only thing they can find. (I did purchase Don Greene's ebook because I think it is a noble effort that should be encouraged and I use it as a kind of guideline when I am searching for sources.) And also, lighten up! : ) Catherine dee Auvil


kdenning2001 Posted: 13 Nov 2011 12:43 AM

Lighten up? Seriously? Excuse me, you dont know me, but I will tell you that many people in Greene's book are of MY family. Dont you think I know who my family is, or more important, who they are NOT?? My family is enrolled in a federally recognized tribe, my uncle was once chairman of our tribe. We do know our history, our history is not public information nor is it for sale. Where has Don Greene sourced ANY of his information? If you are going to do genealogy, then documentation is EVERYTHING. We Shawnees DO have documentation, many authors and historians have commented to me that they do not know where Greene came up with his stories, and that most of what he has written does not connect with historical facts. Do your own work, never depend on a undocumented, non resorsed book. I challenge you to looked up what he wrote on the Pope name, then research Reva Pope yourself.... and you will find that the story on the Pope family that was written as factual is only fable...


Diana Havens Posted: 20 Jun 2012 12:56 PM

FYI....Today there are three federally recognized Shawnee tribes: Absentee-Shawnee Tribe, Eastern Shawnee , and Shawnee Tribe, all of which are headquartered in Oklahoma…..They accept no one with less than one forth (1/4) quantity of blood…So unless your grand parents are full blood Shawnee, your not getting in…..I have heard that unorganized wannabe Shawnee tribes in the East accept all and any members…



kdenning2001 Posted: 25 Jun 2012 7:05 PM Classification: Query

The Abesentee BQ is 1/16 Shawnee Tribe in Miami, OK has no requirement, but you must be able to prove your direct descendancy via Dawes rolls, or 1964 Per Cap The Eastern Shawnee has no BQ requirement, but you must be enrolled before reaching the age of 21 And you must prove continuous lineage enrolment, meaning your native parent must have been enrolled, your native grandparent, etc. Children under five may be enrolled by the BC but if over 5 must be voted upon by the General Council which meets in September.


BonnieKerns53 Posted: 27 Jun 2012 6:27 PM

Truth about the Shawnee blood Surnames

Dear Kdenning2001, Chief Hawk Pope of Shawnee URB in Bellefountain, Ohio? Is that the Hawk Pope you speak of? I have been told that I was of Shawnee ?Blood but I dont know. Was thinking about going to see if he can help me in my journey of finding the truth. If he is a fake then I wish no part of it. PLEASE let me know. I do not wish to be scammed. Thank you


Genealogy4life0 Posted: 29 Jun 2012 11:04 PM Edited: 08 Feb 2013 9:54 PM Surnames: Cassel, Castle

I found with this book that it is about the whites whom married in to the tribes, You may be right that some come from Baden, Germany like John castle, but his many wife's were all Indian Sowege was told to be shawnee, the rest of his wife's cherokee. I know John Cassel & Sowege are real and are in the census... This book only confirmed my research. And their children and their ages were a lined. So if the book is a parse, then it's a pretty good one!


Genealogy4life0 Posted: 29 Jun 2012 11:31 PM Edited: 08 Feb 2013 9:54 PM

http://www.southern-style.com/History/shawnee_heritage.htm Shawnee Heritage A note from a descendant with information that might be helpful to others. Margaret Vann Moseley b: 1768 in Edgefield Co, SC, was the Granddaughter of Squirrel King, Chief of the Savannah River Chickasaws b: 1688, located near present day Augusta, GA, or back then FT. Moore, GA. I grew up in Birmingham, AL, but moved to Greenville, SC for a job about 10 years ago. About 5 years ago I found the name Squirrel King on my genealogy and had to investigate it. I only live about 100 miles from Edgefield, SC where the Vann family lived on Horns Creek. I have since found out that our Vann family were Descendants of Holesqua Opeechan "Stream" Cornstalk b: 1628, A War Chief of the Shawnee Nation, which was the largest Tribes in the US! About 5 years ago I started gathering information about our family, who were famous Shawnee, Cherokee, Chickasaw and Powhattan descendants. This is listed in a book by: Don Greene called Shawnee Heritage 1, Shawnee Genealogy and Family History, available at Target, Amazon.com and LULU.com. It lists Margaret Vann as being the daughter of Edward Ned Vann and Mary King. And I do have proof of that! I also have research documents by the Moseley Family, which my Great Grandmother Margaret Vann Moseley married into, and the documents state that Edward Ned Vann and Mary King were her parents. There are also references to our Great Grandmother being Cherokee in the Moseley Books 1 & 2 (found in any Historical Library across the US). Edward Ned Vann b: 1744 which married Mary King b: 1743 is the son of Mary Barnes b:1720 and Edward Vann b: 1720. I have documents placing Edward Vann living in Edgefield, SC on census and court records, land and tax records, etc. Edward Ned Vann was a rich peach farmer on the Savannah River, and either him or his father Edward Vann owned 2 trading post one on each side of the Savannah River. His father Edward Vann sold the British Government 400 acres of land, upon which to build Ft. Charlotte, which I also have documents copied from the Greenville Library in SC.. Edward Vann b: 1720 was born in the Cherokee Nation, his parents were John Vann born about 1690 his mother was a Cherokee woman of the Anikowi Deer Clan. (They hunted deer down on foot)! That is where Edward Vann met his first wife Mary Barnes b: 1720. Which is our Great Grandmother also. Mary Barnes was the daughter of Richard Barnes and April Tikami Hop b:1695 (sister of Old Hop, Echota Cherokee Chief) They lived in Hiawasee, GA. April "Tikami" Hop ( meaning April Water) was the daughter of Big Turkey Cornstalk b: 1760 and UNK woman. He was also the brother of Okowellos Cornstalk born: 1740 When April "Tikami" Hop was 3 years old her parents were murdered by Catawaba Raiders, and her and her 4 siblings were left there to die, because no one, would take them in. Pigeon Moytoy her aunt's husband, heard about this and went to Hiawassee and brought the children home to raise in the Cherokee Nation ( he was the Emperor of the Cherokee Nation, and also related to Cornstalk through his mother and his wife ). Visit WWW. My Carpenter Genealogy Big Turkey Cornstalk b: 1760 was the son of Holesqua Opeechan "Stream" Cornstalk b: 1628 and wife Nonoma? Holesqua Opeechan "Stream" Cornstalk b: 1628 and was A War Chief in the Shawnee Nation which was basically everything east of the Mississippi but not the leader of the hole tribe, that would be, His son Okowellos Cornstalk born: 1740, in Ohio, was the only Chief of the Entire Shawnee Nation Shawnee had villages all over the place and intermarried with all of the Tribes, especially the Cherokee. Shawnee Heritage I Shawnee Genealogy and Family History by Don Greene (found at Target, Amazon.com and LuLu.com) Web sites: http://kyusa.addr.com/Cherokee/index.html http://kyusa.addr.com/Cherokee/index.html http://www.southern-style.com/southern_family.htm http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=weeksjd Native American Heritage: 1. Holesqua Opeecham "Stream" Cornstalk (Shawnee War Chief) + Nonoma 2. Big Turkey Cornstalk +Unk 3. April Tikami Hop Cornstalk (sister of Old Hop, all the children were adopted by a cousin, Emperor Moytoy of the Cherokee Nation) + Richard Barnes 4. Mary Barnes + Edward Vann 5. Edward Ned Vann + Mary King (She was the daughter of Squirrel King, Chief of the Savannah River Chickasaws and a Thawakilla Shawnee Woman) Edward Vann III b: 24 MAR 1763 d: 26 JUN 1854 + Elizabeth Walls b: 1770 d: 12 DEC 1863 Edith Vann b: 1770 d: AFT 1799 + Martin Cloud b: 1775 d: 1806 Vashti Vann b: 1776 d: 1821 + Benjamin Jernigan b: ABT 1778 d: 20 APR 1847 Mason Vann b: 1777 d: AFT 1860 + Jane Shaw b: ABT 1790 d: BEF 1845 Margaret VANN b: 1767 d: 10 OCT 1849 + Robert D. MOSELEY b: 1755 d: 1831 (My Great Grandparents) The reason you have never been told this story is because our Great Grandparents hid the fact they were Native American. On DEC, 25th 1816 Robert D. Moseley sold 244 acres on Horns Creek, Edgefield, SC.to move to AL. to receive 40 acres of undeveloped property in AL. Robert and Margaret did this to protect their Children (14). They were well known in Edgefield, and lived next door to Edward Ned Vann and Mary King. They had heard about the Indian Removal and ran for their life, along with many other Native American Families. Edward Ned Vann and Mary Vann were listed on the Enumeration Roll of 1817. If they walked the trail of tears, I do not know. The reason they went to Alabama was because it was not a State yet for 2 years. All of these families married amongst themselves to keep anyone from finding out. Edward Ned Vann was a very wealthy Peach Farmer on the Savannah River, and the Whites wanted his property. Our family knew Andrew Jackson because he was also from SC. I have studied the Dawes Rolls and you would be removed if you had as much as 1/16 or less of Indian Blood. Cornstalk and Tecumseh were famous for trying to send the Whites back to where they came from, and that's why no one on the Dawes Roll would admit to being Shawnee, much less related to Cornstalk. I am the Headwoman of the Appalachian Shawnee Tribe -Turkey Clan, and would like to invite you to join our tribe, if you are interested, please reply to this email, if not you are all welcome to join at any time (and please tell your other family members about this that I don't have their emal) Our purpose: To preserve the language, history, traditions, heritage and ancestry of those of Shawnee blood membership, - 300+ and growing almost daily, for sure weekly location, - 27 or 28 States and Canada and aiming at having Villages or groups in every State that the Shawnee or Ancient Shawnee originally inhabited that sort of thing.- Governed by a true Principal Blood Chief, not an American-style elected one, aided and advised by a Second Blood Chief, Principal Woman, War Chief, Village chiefs Elders-Headmen-Headwomen of twelve clans (everyone except the Principal and Second Chief are however elected/selected by their peers) Not recognized by any form of government but ourselves and other Shawnee and natives and no desire to ever be. The AST does not acknowledge or use American "quantum formulas" but only asks for a Shawnee ancestry. Do you have a descendant chart that links you back to Blue Jacket? I can help with that. After your ancestry is authenticated you will need to fill out an application, you will receive an Indian name (from the totems you select on the application). I'm pretty sure you are in the Turtle Clan. Also by sending in a picture to the card maker after you receive your Indian name, you will receive a lifetime membership card, with your name Indian name and Clan printed on it. The cost to mail the card to you is $5 per person. OR THEY CAN SEND IT TO YOU BY EMAIL, AND YOU CAN LAMINATE IT YOURSELF. Shawnee Heritage I Shawnee Genealogy and Family History by Don Greene (found at Target, Amazon.com and LuLu.com) Web sites: http://kyusa.addr.com/Cherokee/index.html http://www.southern-style.com/southern_family.htm http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=weeksjd Native American Heritage: 1. Holesqua Opeecham "Stream" Cornstalk (Shawnee War Chief) + Nonoma 2. Big Turkey Cornstalk +Unk 3. April Tikami Hop Cornstalk (sister of Old Hop, all the children were adopted by a cousin, Emperor Moytoy of the Cherokee Nation) + Richard Barnes 4. Mary Barnes + Edward Vann 5. Edward Ned Vann + Mary King (She was the daughter of Squirrel King, Chief of the Savannah River Chickasaws and a Thawakilla Shawnee Woman) Edward Vann III b: 24 MAR 1763 d: 26 JUN 1854 + Elizabeth Walls b: 1770 d: 12 DEC 1863 Edith Vann b: 1770 d: AFT 1799 + Martin Cloud b: 1775 d: 1806 Vashti Vann b: 1776 d: 1821 + Benjamin Jernigan b: ABT 1778 d: 20 APR 1847 (My ancestors) Mason Vann b: 1777 d: AFT 1860 + Jane Shaw b: ABT 1790 d: BEF 1845 Margaret VANN b: 1767 d: 10 OCT 1849 + Robert D. MOSELEY b: 1755 d: 1831 (My Great Grandparents) The reason you have never been told this story is because our Great Grandparents hid the fact they were Native American. On DEC, 25th 1816 Robert D. Moseley sold 244 acres on Horns Creek, Edgefield, SC.to move to AL. to receive 40 acres of undeveloped property in AL. Robert and Margaret did this to protect their Children (14). They were well known in Edgefield, and lived next door to Edward Ned Vann and Mary King. They had heard about the Indian Removal and ran for their life, along with many other Native American Families. Edward Ned Vann and Mary Vann were listed on the Enumeration Roll of 1817. If they walked the trail of tears, I do not know. The reason they went to Alabama was because it was not a State yet for 2 years. All of these families married amongst themselves to keep anyone from finding out. Edward Ned Vann was a very wealthy Peach Farmer on the Savannah River, and the Whites wanted his property. Our family knew Andrew Jackson because he was also from SC. I have studied the Dawes Rolls and you would be removed if you had as much as 1/16 or less of Indian Blood. Cornstalk and Tecumseh were famous for trying to send the Whites back to where they came from, and that's why no one on the Dawes Roll would admit to being Shawnee, much less related to Cornstalk. I am the Headwoman of the Appalachian Shawnee Tribe -Turkey Clan, and would like to invite you to join our tribe, if you are interested, please reply to this email, if not you are all welcome to join at any time (and please tell your other family members about this that I don't have their emal) Our purpose: To preserve the language, history, traditions, heritage and ancestry of those of Shawnee blood membership, - 300+ and growing almost daily, for sure weekly location, - 27 or 28 States and Canada and aiming at having Villages or groups in every State that the Shawnee or Ancient Shawnee originally inhabited that sort of thing.- Governed by a true Principal Blood Chief, not an American-style elected one, aided and advised by a Second Blood Chief, Principal Woman, War Chief, Village chiefs Elders-Headmen-Headwomen of twelve clans (everyone except the Principal and Second Chief are however elected/selected by their peers) Not recognized by any form of government but ourselves and other Shawnee and natives and no desire to ever be. The AST does not acknowledge or use American "quantum formulas" but only asks for a Shawnee ancestry. Do you have a descendant chart that links you back to Blue Jacket? I can help with that. After your ancestry is authenticated you will need to fill out an application, you will receive an Indian name (from the totems you select on the application). I'm pretty sure you are in the Turtle Clan. Also by sending in a picture to the card maker after you receive your Indian name, you will receive a lifetime membership card, with your name Indian name and Clan printed on it. The cost to mail the card to you is $5 per person. OR THEY CAN SEND IT TO YOU BY EMAIL, AND YOU CAN LAMINATE IT YOURSELF. Only requirement of you is that you keep your contact information current so that we can contact you. I look forward to hearing more from you regarding this. Tammie Wood Deming 253 Oshields Rd. Easley, SC 29640 1-864-306-2464


kdenning2001 Posted: 06 Jul 2012 4:36 PM

BonnieKerns53, Jerry Pope is a fraud. I know he claims his group is state recognized as a tribe, however, the state of Ohio says this is not true. He has also been in trouble with the federal government for spreading this lie. The best advice I can give you, is to do your family genealogy. The Shawnees were removed by force out of the Ohio valley regions, by mid 1830's the Shawnees were gone. No one can tell you if you are Shawnee. But please do not let yourself become hoodwinked by these fancy talkers.


kdenning2001 Posted: 06 Jul 2012 5:07 PM Classification: Query Sowege, a mythical name put to a person for unknown reasons. The reason you found this name and her children in a book that fit others "research" is because Don Greene went into message boards (much like this one) copied what other people had written, then put it in a book as factual. Jacob Castel, married Mary Elizabeth, you will find NO documentation stating she was Shawnee, the word "sowege" does not even translate to "gliding swan" in the Shawnee language, and I found referances to her having a "totem" name, but the Shawnees do not have "totems" and since Jacob is reported to have been born in the 1730's, and I am sure Mary Elizabeth was born during the same time period, how could you have seen her on the census since full families were not enumerated by names until 1850, well over 100 years since the births of Jacob and Mary Elizabeth? People who continue to spread the myth of this "sowege" are doing a great injustice to genealogy. Report facts that can be proven with records, not what you find online written by someone else. Do not depend on others because they are too busy making copies off everyone else who is not documenting. Re: Don Greene, Noel Schutz, "Shawnee Heritage"


?? Posted: 12 Jul 2012 1:23 PM Edited: 10 Jul 2021 8:53 PM Surnames: Snyder

I am in the process of researching my maternal family tree. I was always told we were cherokee but the more I delve into it the more connections I find to the Shawnee people. If you have gathered any information on the Snyder family originally from Ohio my ancestors then moved to Boonsboro MD sometime in the1800s. Ive gotten as har back as my grandmothers grandfather Harlan Snyder and his sister Drusilla. Looking for any further connections between them and the Snyder family in Shawnee OK or any info on other Shawnee surnames in Western MD thanks


kdenning2001 Posted: 13 Jul 2012 1:05 AM

Shawnee, OK is the Absentee Shawnees, there are no surnames of Snyder in the tribe. The Shawnees were not in MD.


mlh2010 Posted: 28 Jul 2012 4:26 AM Surnames: Vann

I have to agree with many posts related to the lack of appropriate citations. "Southern Style, A Downhome Perspective" really needs to back up claims with more than a narrative and reference to a book that may not be reliable. Each birth/death/etc. is lacking references. There were many people with the name Vann living in the same states and regions. Perhaps some are related, but many may be from different lines. If the Cherokee, Shawnee, etc. Nations have not verified these lines, they should not be using cut and paste symbols, etc. in my opinion. Such sloppy genealogical work amounts to nothing more than lies, plagiarism, and wild goose chases. If someone actually has a respectable tree with proper sources and documentation, please step forward with your information.


toozazzy1 Posted: 08 Feb 2013 12:25 PM

I agree with your post. In doing research, I have been sent on so many wild goose chases, that I am afraid to trust anyone, including anyone that might have the truth out there. I am looking for Edmond/Edmund/Edward Vann born about 1780 and died about 1859. Someone told me he was part Shawnee under his mothers line of Moytoy/Carpenter. If anyone has information confirming this, please, let me know. Thank you.


Janet Kincaid Posted: 25 Feb 2013 4:18 PM

Surnames: Vanns and Barnes

Now I am confused as well after reading all of these posts. I thought Edward Ned Vann ( my 7th ggrandfather )was Cherokee and he Married Mary Barnes daughter of Richard Shawnee Barnes and April Tickoma Hop. Does anyone know of this line. I am just finding out about my ancestry. Thank you


toozazzy1 Posted: 26 Feb 2013 9:12 AM

I thought Mary Barnes was indian. I need to pull out the papers and notes regarding him. I once thought possibly Edward Ned Vann was possibly my grandfather. Give me some time. my email - toozazzy AT yahoo.com


bamdevo Posted: 22 Mar 2013 6:25 PM

Surnames: Castle, Shawnee Kdenning2001- I see where you have said that Jacob Castle married Mary Elizabeth & that she wasn't Shawnee. I have (admittedly through another forum topic) that she might have been Pawnee. Do you know anything about this suggestion?


1DillonFamilySearcher Posted: 19 Oct 2013 4:45 PM

...then, according to you, you could help people who are desperately trying to track down their Indian ancestry and won't (if it is not public / for sale) because you are probably concerned about sharing monetary rewards... The problem I've encountered from those who are officially part of a "recognized tribe" is that they refuse to admit that there are other people who also have ancestors who were Indian. I've heard things along the line of "If your ancestor isn't on the Dawes Rolls you are NOT __(tribe)__." Just because my ancestors didn't get captured, imprisoned, etc.... does not make them less Indian. I do not want to document my Indian ancestry to get part of the monetary benefits...I just want to be able to document what we were told (but it doesn't fall into a time/location for them to have been on any rolls & make it 'easy'). How do you propose we "do our own work" if nothing available has suitable documentation? ? ? Ann


ELHon Posted: 22 May 2015 10:50 AM Edited: 02 Dec 2015 2:19 AM

I realize that it has been awhile since people were discussing this book "Shawnee Heritage" but I just found out about the book about 30 minutes ago. 5 of my family members were taken captive at Ruddle's Fort, 1780, Cynthiana, Kentucky. It is well documented that my 6th great-grandmother, Mary Knodler-Hon was taken by Shawnee Chief Blue Jacket. I know this is true and have many documents concerning this fact. Apparently in this book "Shawnee Heritage" it states that Mary & her daughter (my 5th great-grand aunt) had children while being held captive. I have always questioned this very statement as Mary was 35 years old when she was taken captive, Catherine was (approximately) 18 years old. I am very interested in finding out if either of them had any children while in captivity, only for the sake of recording the information in my genealogy research for my family. Could you give me direction on how I might find this information.


birdofthenorth Posted: 16 Jul 2015 3:55 PM Edited: 16 Jul 2015 4:13 PM

Hello All, I know this thread is about Shawnee Heritage i, but based on my experience with Shawnee Heritage iii, I am very disappointed. On page 286 of this book one set of dates and places of birth are given for my ancestors. On page 333 there are different dates of birth and a few different places of birth for these very same ancestors. On one of the entries on page 333, there is a birth date of 1580 given and a death after 1746. If you are going to pass yourself off as a genealogist, at least be consistent in your sloppiness. That this author calls himself a genealogist is an insult to any legitimate genealogist.


patticax2003 Posted: 29 Oct 2015 9:59 AM

well I hated to read about this.i joined ancestry and plugged in my family and got to my 3rd great gmother Christina castle cassel and then her father peter and then valentine and then Jacob right to Mary Elizabeth cassell or sowege as you talk about.i started getting hints about Shawnee through her.now I guess I was waiting my time.it would have been great to say that I had Shawnee in my blood.


birdofthenorth Posted: 20 Nov 2015 3:31 PM

I would use research by others only as a guide. I am learning that if you want accurate information you have to do the work yourself or hire a professional genealogist. I used the Professional Association of Genealogist to find the researcher I needed. When he wrote his reports he always sourced them. Sadly most of the stories of being Native American, descended from kings, counts, and princes are family lore. I recommend going on the assumption the claim is false. You will be a better researcher for it.


lgcarver58 Posted: 25 Nov 2015 12:28 PM

I agree with sdillon2184. How can we research for our native american ancestry, if the records are private and not available to public? Surely the Bureau of Indian Affairs can do something to require the tribes to make public there records? Otherwise, we are just banging our heads against wall. I family history tells me that I have native american on my mom's side and I also have some on my dad's side of the family. I will never be able to answer the questions that continuously nag at me about my family. American Indian Research and Records


KathyRoberts54 Posted: 26 Nov 2015 12:19 AM

      • How can we research for our native american ancestry, if the records are private and not available to public? *** Not sure where this notion originated, but it is not accurate. American Indian Records ARE available to the public. Here is just one site : http://www.accessgenealogy.com/ Tribal Records and Rolls can also be found on Ancestry and many other sites. To lgcarver58. Which American Indian Nation or Tribe do you believe you have a connection to ? Post some names, dates and locations and someone may be able to assist you. Kathy Roberts VA

WamkeWarnke Posted: 02 May 2016 4:18 PM

The DNA type of of the Authors of Shawnee Heritage has been studied and scientifically identified as Native American Ancestry, Please read this Article! Angie Moses Review of Science Writing and News Reports on DNA Testing and Popular Genetics Native Americans Have Deep Ancestry in Europe: Yes, It's Official Wednesday, October 30, 2013 Shocking, Long Overdue Revision to American Indian Genetics By Donald N. Yates The ecstatic waters . . . Through their ancestral patterns dance. —William Butler Yeats, "News for the Delphic Oracle" We've been saying it all along but it looks as though geneticists may be forced by new findings in ancient DNA to admit that early Siberian people and present-day Native Americans both have strong roots in Europe, only secondarily in Asia. The nuclear genetic bomb was dropped by Danish geneticist Eske Willerslev at a conference on "First Americans Archeology," held October 16-19, 2013, at Santa Fe, N.M. The city that gave birth to the original atom bomb hosted a glittering roster of speakers in a venue better known for its turquoise jewelry, fry bread and avante garde art, including big draws Achilli, Adovasio, Dillehay, Gonzalez and Schurr. The paradigm-shifting conference program will be commemorated with a book Paleoamerican Odyssey ($56) to be published by Texas A&M Press later this year. Leaked reports in the news media focused on Willerslev's paper, "Genetics as a Means for Understanding Early Peopling of the Americas," which concerned the genetic sequencing of two ancient Siberians' bones discovered in the 1920s and now in the Hermitage Museum in St Petersburg. Analysis of a bone in one of the arms of a boy found near the village of Mal'ta close to Lake Baikal yielded the oldest complete genome of a modern human sequenced to date. Of the 24,000 year-old skeleton that was Exhibit A, Willerslev was quoted in The Siberian Times, as saying, "His DNA shows close ties to those of today's Native Americans. Yet he apparently descended not from East Asians, but from people who had lived in Europe or western Asia." He added, "The finding suggests that about a third of the ancestry of today's Native Americans can be traced to 'western Eurasia.'" The 4-year-old boy, who died 24,000 years ago in a homeland previously assumed to account for all the Indians who crossed a theoretical Bering land-bridge and founded the First Americans, had a male Y-chromosomal haplogroup of R1b, the most common lineage in modern Europe, and a female mitochondrial lineage of U, the dominant prototype in pre-historic Europe. As it happens, I am the same combination, R1b for male and U for female, as are innumerable others in our in-house study on Cherokee DNA, published, lo, some five years ago. Whereas previous "peopling of the Americas" stuff has clung to and recycled haplogroup studies (sex-lines), the new shock research relies on autosomal DNA, total genomic contributions from all ancestral lines, not just male-only, not just female-only descent. The title of a blog from Eurogenes rightly emphasizes this: "Surprising aDNA [autosomal] results from Paleolithic Siberia (including Y DNA R)." When we introduced the 18-Marker Ethnic Panel as an enhancement for our main autosomal product, DNA Fingerprint Plus, lo, again, these five years now and counting, we presented a map of prehistoric human migrations showing without any equivocation that "Native Americans," even as Cavalli-Sforza demonstrated two decades ago, were closer in genetic distance to Europeans than Asians. In fact, we claimed, on the basis of autosomal DNA, that having Native American I or Native American II was a result discrete and separate from East Asian, since Native Americans obtained frequencies of its occurrence as high as 80% and Asians were on the polar opposite of the scale, at the bottom for carrying it. Other methods frequently confused Native American and East Asian to the point of invalidity, particularly those products claiming to arrive at racial or ethnic percentages. The moral is that autosomal DNA trumps Y chromosome and mitochondrial evidence, and only ancient autosomal DNA can truly explain modern DNA. Even one of the most antipathetic students of American Indian DNA, Theodore G. Schurr, seems to rethinking the rigid definitions that have built careers and won tenure for geneticists and anthropologists for decades. For the fanatics who have been toeing the party line on haplogroup Q, as set down by Schurr's company, Family Tree DNA, and its followers, we note the following statement of recantation or at least qualification, taken from the Santa Fe program: "Tracing Human Movements across Siberia and into the Americas: New Insights from Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Data." In this paper, I present genetic data from native Siberian and indigenous populations of North America that help to address questions about the process and timing of the peopling of the Americas. These new genetic data indicate that Eskimoan- and Athapaskan-speaking populations are genetically distinct from one another, as well as each to Amerindian groups, and that the formation of these circumarctic populations was the result of two population expansions that occurred after the initial expansion of settlement of the Americas. Our high-resolution analysis of Y chromosome haplogroup Q has also reshaped the organization of this lineage, making connections between New World and Old World populations more apparent and demonstrating that southern Altaians and Native Americans share a recent common ancestor. The data also make clear that Y-chromosomal diversity among the first Native Americans was greater than previously recognized. Overall, these results greatly enhance our understanding of the peopling of Siberia and the Americas from both mtDNA and Y-chromosome perspectives. - See more at: http://www.dnaconsultants.com/_blog/DNA_Consultants_Blog/post/native-americans-have-deep-ancestry-in-europe/#sthash.QlemtCZb.dpuf;



early_gardner1942 Posted: 14 May 2016 4:49 PM Surnames: Gardner

Birdofthenorth. You are right on re Shawnee Heritage. When I first learned of a ggf 7 generations back, Jacob Gardner, as being captured and lived with the Shawnee and perhaps having a Miami wife named Mary, I posted a lot of information that I can not now prove or remove from the internet. One being Jacob Gardner as one and the same as William Brown, both born in 1729. I have absolutely no proof of that now in 2016. Don Greene, the so called author and borrower of others information on the net, took every post I ever posted re Jacob Gardner, all his land records in SC, NC, TN, and Ky, and embellished upon them creating a story that is half truth, half lies. I have several other kin/researchers that descend from Jacob Gardner and his daughters Mary and Nancy Ann who both married Boydstuns, and my ancestor William Gardner whose son Henry Pawling Gardner descendants has many researching Jacob Gardner. We currently have only published what we can prove, land records, tax records and a couple of census'. The rest is family lore, and a story published by the South Central KY genealogical society. There is much of that story that came from a letter from Noah Barton, who knew Jacob Gardner when he was a small child, to Daniel, a newspaperman and friend. He was an old man when he wrote that letter and somehow it survived and was copied and published. All that mr greene published in Shawnee Heritage was taken from my naïve internet posting about Jacob Gardner. I am a genealogist, and now only post what I can source and not my theories about Jacob Gardner. I discourage anyone from buying mr greene and mr Schultz books that are filled with plagiarized internet misinformation. From what I have read, they did no research on their own. What phonies that are charging $35 each for their Shawnee books. But I guess we always will have the likes of them since "Gore invented the Internet."


early_gardner1942 Posted: 14 May 2016 5:07 PM Surnames: Gardner

They certainly took all my early and inaccurate internet publish information and added non truths about where My ancestor Jacob Gardner born in 1729 and was captured and lived with the Shawnee north of the Ohio river, probably before 1766 but that date is only a guess from land records, I was so angry when he first publish my correct and not correct posting on the internet as his own and charges "$35" per book. I guess telling lies and not sourcing genealogy information is very enriching to the so called authors pockets. Plagiarist is a more correct term for them.


Christopher Tucker Posted: 20 Dec 2016 1:07 AM Surnames: Cornstalk/Adkins/Pauley

Hi there...... My mother is a Pauley. The Pauley/Polly name is found associated with the Adkins family through Agnes Adkins who married David Polly/Pauley. Agnes is supposedly the grand-daughter of Blue Sky Cornstalk-Adkins. The lineage goes somewhat like this..... ------------------------------------------------------------ Parker Vincent Adkins married Blue-Sky Cornstalk. They had a son named William Adkins. William Adkins had a daughter named Agnes, who married David Polly. David Polly and Agnes Adkins Polly/Pauley had a son named Henry Polly/Pauley. Henry Pauley had a son named Mahoney, who is the oldest grave in the Pauley Family Cemetary. Mahoney's son named Coleman. Coleman's son named Overton. Overton'S son named Arl. Arl's son named Raymond. Raymond had a daughter named Juanita Danette Pauley-Tucker. Juanita had a son named Christopher Tucker(Me). -------------------------------------------------------- I am considering hiring a professional genealogist to either confirm or disprove these links, but would like your, and other opinions here first......... Thank you for your time, Chris



debbiepike54 Posted: 16 Oct 2018 6:29 PM Surnames: Odom, Watson, Watts

I read some of that study about 2 years ago. I believe Cherokee was one Indian that came from Europe. Ancestry.com wrote a blog about testing the oldest full blood Cherokee, and their dna resulted in Europe. I have 1% native american and several family tree possibilities that have all led to ??. Some because half Indians and whites married to Indians sometimes changed their names, including the last name to keep from being murdurderd. Such as with a great grandfather John Watson. Was he really John Watts. His grandson did changed his name to Levi Watts instead of Watson. Mahala Long is a g grandmother. Then there is Sibbel Odom married to Abraham Odom in Chowan, NC. I cannot find Mahala or Sibells parents unless it goes to all Indian names. I am so tired of going around and around.


karengarnica7 Posted: 19 Oct 2019 7:56 PM

Rolls and Tribal Registry started only at the time of removal? Correct? So what about prior to removal? History books? Where do we find those records? Are you stating that records didn't exist prior to Rolls? I haven't found Tribal records online. We've all see the rolls - and they are limited, obviously. I wandered into this mess via dna, and I would like to do my own research - where do I go?


kdenning2001 Posted: 04 Nov 2019 10:12 PM

There are pre removal records. Many are not online. I have records from 1830


karengarnica7 Posted: 05 Nov 2019 2:19 PM Surnames: Sixkiller, Fivekiller, Rattling Gourd, Cordery, Vann, Meek, Williams, Cornstalk, Moytoy.

Hi k, Are you willing to share some of those records. I am finding Shawnee and Cherokee and Choctaw in my dna lines. Names include Sixkiller, Fivekiller, Otterlifter, Rattling Gourd, Moytoy, Cornstalk, Vann, Cordery, Meek, Williams. They seem to relate to either my 3rd great grandmother, whose name I don't know as she died when my 2nd great grandfather was about 4 years old. Or they may relate to his wife's Jones family. It's hard to distinguish at this point because of the 7 cousins, 5 of us descend from both families. i must say also that I am dna mapping the matches from 7 cousins, and all have numerous matches to these families. Some I have found on the rolls. Some I have not.


kdenning2001 Posted: 06 Nov 2019 6:34 PM

First, DNA cannot tell you any tribe. Second, Moytoy is a myth, there are zero historical documents listing any person with this name, in fact, I am related to people who claim Moytoy, but DNA shows they have no Native blood, but they keep the false story going. I suggest you start a genealogy tree, start with yourself and go backwards, you just cannot reach into these early records and start pulling names, and please, do not go off other people's work. There is no easy answer, if you do the work, you will find your answers.


karengarnica7 Posted: 06 Nov 2019 6:54 PM Edited: 06 Nov 2019 7:03 PM

First of all kdenning. My close cousins who are members of three different tribes show only 15%. And she has the same matches. I imagine it's a problem for you to have a documented Cherokee with these matches. For Moytoy in the 1600's - we would expect to see 0% dna. Great Grand 12% 2nd Great 6% 3rd Great 3% 4th great 1.5% which may be absent altogether. No one descended from anyone in the 1600's would be likely to show the ethnic dna. It's hit or miss at that point. I mentioned numerous matches and you chose Moytoy because it's controversial. You failed to mention Cordery, Sixkiller, Lucas etc. I have your number. I have documented dna matches with individuals and families on the rolls and their descendants show 3% to 0%. I am trying to go backward beyond the rolls. I am not interested in tribal membership - keep your cash and your false sense of Nativity. I am interested in the genealogy and history. You made the comment that you had evidence. You have zero. I suggest you stop saying you have evidence when you have zero evidence but the published rolls. You obviously know very little about dna and genealogical evidence and/or history.


Sandra Miranda Posted: 22 Feb 2020 2:30 PM Edited: 24 Oct 2020 2:34 PM

From what I understand is that a lot of this information comes from oral tradition pasted down from family to family like some of the Native American stories.. none is documented.. not trying to defend this Don Greene or his book, but I do not agree with you


John S Captain III Posted: 19 Sep 2020 11:04 PM Surnames: Captain

All books contain misinformation each and every US Census. With that said MrsCatherine is right any details might lead you to the last fact that you find in another book. My GGGGrandfather Thomas Captain was listed as 3/4 not full blood until like 1950 or about .. so many things are wrong... on purpose ? Maybe... .. I also just seen Thomas Captain’s mom and dad... or one of them was a SANTEE Sioux and with the cursive writings and spellings we cant find Nan-hom-ga-we and Ma-Ta-wa-sa parents as of now...


John S Captain III Posted: 19 Sep 2020 11:07 PM And tell me if I’m wrong no DNA tests.. as for the admission if your over 21 i do not see that as a problem longterm but your right all that matters is was your family on that role... many Shawnee’s did not agree to trade with the whites... and i think they got no entrance ever.. so its who gave up under contract at that time... well most got killed so i would not call it a fair trade.. never then less.. it’s kinda a contract..


John S Captain III Posted: 19 Sep 2020 11:12 PM

I do not know what a “unorganized tribe” not recognized ? And you are wrong. As said in the thread its blood by family line and not by % my child is 1/32nd and she is in... Re: American Indian Research and Records


John S Captain III Posted: 19 Sep 2020 11:19 PM

DNA cannot be used to be in any Tribe. And its not as simple as just say it... take you ... your dad.. and mom and start.. not one person became a shawnee from DNA... only in your mind.. (i think as far as Tribal role) if you find it frustrating already then take a break some never find the time or links they seek.. You can never ever enroll in 3 tribes... not possible


karengarnica7 Posted: 20 Sep 2020 7:28 AM

It most certainly is possible. You are not too bright.


karengarnica7 Posted: 11 Feb 2021 2:23 AM

DNA can most certainly be used to prove family membership. Not everyone is interested in Tribal Membership. No one becomes anything. Your dna is your dna. If you are Shawnee, you are Shawnee, and no one can take that from you. If you are Cherokee, you are Cherokee. And you are crazy if you think someone can't enroll in three tribes. Now you are stating that an individual cannot be descended from several different tribes? You really need an education.

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karengarnica7 Posted: 11 Feb 2021 2:24 AM

Without sources, it's basically useless as proof.


danielbaird55 Posted: 23 May 2021 7:21 PM

I have Mr. Greene's book, "Shawnee Heritage III" I cannot say if it is true or false. I wonder why Mr. Greene finds it reasonable not to list resources, which he says are available for us to research ourselves. Whether true or false he is the only source that has a semblance of accuracy. Many people attack his work and maybe rightly so but I notice that non of them seem to have evidence of their own claims. Nor do they have any correct information to offer. If Mr. Greene is presenting a fictional account then he has spent a huge amount of time creating the story. I would say similar to J. R. R. Tolkien's efforts in creating the Hobbit stories. As for myself, until someone else comes up with some proof against Mr. Greene's book, I will use it as a guide, noting in my records that it is not verified. He states he was a Shawnee Chief. Can anyone prove that is incorrect? Would being that high up in the Shawnee Culture give him access to records or oral traditions not available to others? Just a question.


danielbaird55 Posted: 23 May 2021 7:27 PM

I find it interesting how many people that have found information on an ancestor think that that information belongs to them. Who is to say that another researcher has not found the same information from the original source. Whether the information is true or false. If you find information from a public source you have no right to claim it as your own.


danielbaird55 Posted: 23 May 2021 7:37 PM Edited: 23 May 2021 7:38 PM

You may very well be correct in your opinion of Mr. Greene's work. I find it interesting that because you do not know, or have not found, something that others present that it is purely mythical. It would be much more beneficial to other researchers for you to present the facts that you know and let them determine the accuracy of yours and others work.





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