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BY3368's Ancestral Y roots in Ireland?

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BY3368 to Z30233 - in Ireland as early as 2500 BC?

As Z30233 is a lineal ancestor of BY3368 (ten phylogenetic "generations"), this examination begins there, between 2572 BC and 1613 BC. Descending from Z30233, down the haplogroup stream, there are two, if not three, noteworthy indicators that suggests many groups were in Northern Ireland as early as 2500 BC.

  • Z30233
    • Rathlin Man 1 - Rathlin Island, County Antrim, Northern Ireland
    • CTS8704
      • S280
        • DF25
          • DF5
            • FGC3899
              • ZZ32
                • CTS3655
                  • L627
                    • BY3364
                      • BY3368

First, the discovery and Y DNA analysis of the bones of Rathlin Man I reveal a yet undetermined subclade of haplogroup Z30233 was present in what is now County Antrim. The bones of Rathlin Man 1 were dated to 2000 BC.

Second, moving down the haplogroup stream, a significant cluster of people - the O'Cathain line - a sept of the Cenél nEógain branch of the Northern Uí Néill in medieval Ireland - is encountered within the subclades of FGC3899.

  • Z30233
    • Rathlin Man 1 - Rathlin Island, County Antrim, Northern Ireland
    • CTS8704
      • S280
        • Hinxton2
        • DF25
          • S6189
            • Sílastaðir
          • DF5
            • FGC3899
              • FGC5780
                • BY3384
                  • L658 (O'Cathain Line - Cain/Caine/Kane/Kaine - Ireland)
              • ZZ32
                • CTS3655
                  • L627
                    • BY3364
                      • BY3368

Third, progressing further downsteam from Z30233, we arrive at haplogroup ZZ32. Not only was ZZ32 the phylogenetic "parent" of L627 - from which BY3368 descends - but also the phylogenetic parent of L1403. In turn, L1403 was the phylogenetic parent of L1402, and phylogenetic grandparent of A818, which is the haplogroup for the Seven Septs of Laois, or more specifically, the Loígis... which was an Irish tribe which settled in western Leinster during the third century AD. The Loígis claim descent from Lugaid Laigsech, of the Dál nAraidi of Northern Ireland. Legend has it that this offshoot tribe of Dál nAraidi was rewarded territory (some of which is in the present County Laois) from the king of Leinster, for contributing "troops" to expel a Munster occupation of western Leinster. The seven surnames (hence, the seven septs) of Laois are O'Devoy (O'Deevy), O'Doran, O'Dowling, McEvoy, O'Kelly, O'Lalor and O'Moore. Note that, while the surname of Muir/Mure/Moore appears in a number of haplogroups under BY3368, and the surname O'Moore/O'More appears in the closest Y DNA cousin branch with A818/the Seven Septs of Laois, this is of particular interest, yet highly unlikely they shared a similar surname because of close association. The last time BY3368 and A818 shared a common ancestor was some 3000 years ago, sometime before 998 BC and after 1976 BC.

Yet, it has to be recognized that not all descendants of Z30233 appear to have remained in Ireland, or flowed exclusively to Scotland. From Z30233, following the haplogroup stream down six phylogenteic "generations" to ZZ32, and down further to CTS3655, two subclades show different routes of migration. Instead of their ancestors moving into the Lowlands of Scotland, test takers of the Z16539 stream are traceable to 18th and 19th century ancestry in East Scotland (Aberdeenshire, Inverness, etc) and, south, into Surrey, Devon, and perhaps Lincolnshire, England. The last common ancestor that L627, Z16539, and BY21628 shared was between 1756 BC and 680 BC, so it is likely the break in the lines occurred after 422 BC (based on the estimated ages of L627 and Z16539. The age of BY21628 has not yet been calculated).

Note also that, while several categorized under BY3368, BY3364, or L627 (or, even M269 if, for example, they tested to M269, but are classified under Group 2 of the Moore Worldwide Y DNA Project) show genealogical trees back to Ireland, but not (yet) to Scotland, it is highly probable that this reflects migrant lines from Scotland to Ireland, during the Ulster Plantation years, beginning in 1606.[1] Of all who have tested under BY3368, none have genealogical trees with documented lineage to Ireland prior to the Ulster Plantation years, thereby dismissing the suggestion (so far) that any of this line are descendants of remnants of the Y DNA group who remained behind (if any actually did) in Northern Ireland, while the balance moved (perhaps as early as the 12th century) to Southwest Scotland.

This, therefore, gives reason for pause before leaping to the conclusion that BY3368's phylogenetic grandfather, great grandfather, great-great grandfather, or any phylogenetic ancestor, for that matter, was in Ireland. Instead, it appears the phylogenetic father of Rathlin Man I (reminding again that the bones were dated to ca. 2000 BC) , which is haplogroup Z30233, was likely a Breton in what is now Scotland. The phylogenetic great-grandfather of Z30233, incidentally, is L21, which, as indicated above, was identified as a marker for Pretani. Therefore, see BY3368 Roots in Strathclyde? for additional information to consider.

Haplogroup Tree from DF13 to BY3368

The following tree shows a number of major ongoing Y DNA projects and the areas in which the respective haplogroups within those projects originated. This tree is presented to show common ancestry with these different projects though, in all instances, that common ancestry is measured in thousands of years. Note that DF13, and all that follow are categorized under L21, which was defined as "Pretanic", a few years ago, by Britain's DNA. Pretanic is also known as Brythonic Celt/Celtic Britons.

  • DF13
    • DF21
      • FGC3213
        • Z16532
          • Z16526 (The Z16526 Project - Ireland)[2]
        • ZZ1
          • S3058 (Little Scottish Cluster - Scotland)[3]
          • S5459
            • S6163 (County Galway, Ireland)
      • S5488
        • Z16294
          • BY11118
            • Z16281
              • Z16282
                • Z16291 (Ely Carroll Project - Ireland)[4]
        • S7200
          • L7200
            • L720/S299 (Clan Chattan/Highland Clan - Scotland) [5]
      • Z16267 (The Airgíalla of South Ulster, Northern Ireland)[6][7]
        • F24434 (Clan Colla - Ireland)[8]
      • Z30233
        • Rathlin Man 1 - Rathlin Island, County Antrim, Northern Ireland
        • CTS8704
          • S280
            • DF25
              • DF5
                • FGC3899
                  • FGC5780
                    • BY3384
                      • L658 (O'Cathain Line - Cain/Caine/Kane/Kaine - Ireland)[9][10]
                  • ZZ32 Dumnonii of Cornwall, Devon, etc?
                    • L1403 Either Seven Septs of Laois or Fir Domnann/Laigin? - Ireland
                      • L1402
                        • A818
                    • CTS3655 Dumnonii?
                      • L627 Damnonii of SW Scotland?
                        • BY3364
                          • BY3368/The Southwest Scotland Cluster
                        • FGC3911
                          • BY71000 Murdoch/McMuldroch/Meldrum
                      • Z16539 Bynorthemore & Kingston (Devon, England)
                        • Z16540
                          • BY40349 Sprouls/Sproule
                            • BY67179 Heron/Herron
                          • BY2724 Britton
                            • BY2695
                              • BY2668 Grant
                          • BY3363
                            • Z29559 Coberly
    • Z39589
      • L1335 Pictish (per Britain's DNA) - Scotland
        • Z16450 - Wales 2 Cluster
      • FGC10046
        • L371 Ancient Welsh
      • DF41
        • S775 - Royal Stewart line, per Alex Williamson's Big Tree
          • S388 - Royal Stewart line, per Britain's DNA
      • DF49
        • Z2980
          • Z2976
            • DF23
              • Z2956
                • Z2965
                  • M222 Northwest Irish

Return to the BY3368 and Subclades Project


  1. Plantation of Ulster, in Wikipedia, Retrieved 20 Aug 2020
  2. Z16526 Y DNA Project, Retrieved 8 Aug 2020
  3. S424/Little Scottish Cluster Y DNA Project, Retrieved 8 Aug 2020
  4. Ely Carroll Y DNA Project, Retrieved 8 Aug 2020
  5. Clan Chattan Y DNA, Retrieved 8 Aug 2020
  6. The Airgíalla were a loose federation of tuath, largely located in the modern province of Ulster. Their territory, depending on timeframe, included much of what includes the modern counties of Monaghan, Armagh and Fermanagh.
  7. Airgíalla, in Wikipedia, Retrieved 20 Aug 2020
  8. Clan Colla Y DNA, Retrieved 8 Aug 2020
  9. Kean/Keane/Caines/O'Cathain Y DNA Project, Retrieved 8 Aug 2020
  10. O'Cahan/O'Cathain, in Wikipedia; Retrieved 17 August 2020



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