upload image

BY3368 Roots in the Kingdom of Strathclyde & Earlier

Privacy Level: Open (White)
Date: [unknown] [unknown]
Location: [unknown]
Profile manager: Robert Moore private message [send private message]
This page has been accessed 98 times.

Given the estimated age of BY3368 (emerging as early as 1248 AD), the time-frame in which surnames emerged in Scotland, and that the bulk of these surnames are heavily concentrated in Ayrshire, it seems probable that this group was in SW Scotland well before the 12th century, and are identifiable to the Damnonii who inhabited the area before the 2nd century AD. In fact, given the Y DNA cousins in SW England, it appears haplogroup ZZ32 (the phylogenetic great-great-grandparent of BY3368) can be identified to the Dumnonii of Devon, Cornwall, etc.

How is this connection from BY3368 to the Damnonii and Dumnonii even a theory?

Following three distinct branches of ZZ32, we can begin to see a pattern that seems to sustain the theory.

First, ZZ32>Z16539>BY3989 (the Devon Cluster) appears to have remained in Devon. This was the central area in which the Domnonii lived, as early as the Bronze Age.[1] As such, this begins to set the stage for what follows.

Second, though previously labeled as the Seven Septs of Laois, ZZ32>L1403>L1402>A818 could be the Fir Domnann (the Laigin?), a branch of the Dumnonii who are said to have launched their migration into Ireland from Caernarvonshire, south of the island of Anglesey, (which is still known as the Lleyn/Laigin peninsula) in northwest Wales.[2][3][4] While, certainly, the names under L1402 appear to be the exact seven names that emerged from the Seven Septs of Laois.[5] it seems the stories of the Seven Septs and the Laigin may have become historically entangled at some point. Both have roots in Leinster, but appear (perhaps) to be completely separate entities. This will be examined further, at a later time, in these pages.

Finally, as ZZ32>L627>BY3364 appears to be in SW Scotland well before the 12th century, and given the connections to both the Devon Cluster and the Seven Septs, or Laigin, it seems quite plausible that BY3364>BY3368 would be at least a portion of the Damnonii... a branch of the Dumnonii who settled in that area of Scotland.[6] In fact, given the location of many BY3368 surnames that emerged in Ayrshire, it may be that this group can be traceable to one specific town of the Damnonii (hence the "portion of Damnonii" statement made, above). If we consider Claudius Ptolemy's "Geography", published in the 2nd century AD, there were seven towns of the Damnonii - Vanduara, Colania, Coria, Alauna, Lindum, and Victoria. It it is likely that these towns actually referred to Roman military camps and native strong points such as duns, and may not actually reflect the actual tongue of the inhabitants. Nonetheless, in that Vanduara is suggested to be Paisley or Renfrew (both about 6 miles/9.7 km to the west of Glasgow), or some 20 miles south of Glasgow at Loudoun Hill, this would be the closest location of the seven towns referenced by Ptolomy. [7] It has been suggested that Walls Hill hill fort[8], near Howwoood, in Renfrewshire, may have been an oppidum (a large fortified Iron Age settlement)[9] of the Vanduara. If we also consider the Iron Age hill fort known as Balliehill Mount/Bully Hill[10], near Kilmaurs, East Ayreshire, it might be that Walls Hill was the main hill fort of Vanduara, while Bailliehill Mount hill fort,roughly 14 miles distant, and also 14 miles from Loudoun Hill, may have been a smaller satellite population center within Vanduara. This also leaves one to wonder if BY3364>BY3368 can be narrowed down to the Baillihill Mount site, which is central to the area in which BY3368 surnames emerged.


  • ZZ32 (estimated age/emerged 1976 BC to 998 BC - Dumnonii of Devon, England)
    • Z16539
      • BY3989 (Devon, England Cluster)
    • L1403
      • L402
        • A818 (estimated age/emerged 8 BC to 648 AD - Fir Domnann of Ireland, Seven Septs of Laois, or the Laigin)
    • CTS3655 (estimated age/emerged 1756 BC to 680 BC)
      • L627 (estimated age/emerged 1049 BC to 352 AD - Iron Age Damnonii of SW Scotland)
        • BY3364 (estimated age/emerged 180 BC - 1020 AD - Kingdom of Strathclyde years)
          • BY3368 (estimated age/emerged 1248 AD - 1778 AD - Southwest Scotland Surname Cluster)

Return to the BY3368 and Subclades Project


  1. Dumnonii, in Wikipedia; Retrieved 17 September 2020
  2. Fir Domnann, in Wikipedia; Retrieved 17 September 2020
  3. Laigin, in Wikipedia; Retrieved 17 September 2020
  4. Early Medieval Ireland 400-1200, by Daibhi O Croinin; Retrieved 17 September 2020
  5. County Laois - Prehistoric, in Wikipedia; Retrieved 17 September 2020
  6. Damnonii, in Wikipedia; Retrieved 17 September 2020
  7. With virtually no additional information to reach any degree of certainty, the locations suggested are little more than guesswork. Still, if we look at the historiography, we can begin to see who made these estimations, and perhaps understand a little more as to why. Among the assignments made by those whose work is considered to be authoritative (to varying degrees) are those of William Baxter (1719, Glossarium Antiquitatum Britannicum),William Camden (1607, Britannia), John Horsley (1732, Britannia Romana), William Forbes Skene (1880, Celtic Scotland, a History of Ancient Alban), George Chalmers (c. 1820, Caledonia), and William Roy (1793, Military Antiquities of the Romans in Britain). Other historians either quote one of these as the authority for assigning locations to Ptolemy's towns, or simply assert a location in passing. A few offer lists of the assertions of the above authorities.
  8. Walls Hill, within Walls Loch History, in Wikipedia; Retrieved 17 September 2020
  9. Oppidum, in Wikipedia; Retrieved 17 September 2020
  10. Balliehill Mount, in Wikipedia; Retrieved 17 September 2020

  • Login to edit this profile and add images.
  • Private Messages: Send a private message to the Profile Manager. (Best when privacy is an issue.)
  • Public Comments: Login to post. (Best for messages specifically directed to those editing this profile. Limit 20 per day.)


Leave a message for others who see this profile.
There are no comments yet.
Login to post a comment.