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Barry Castle, Glamorgan

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This page was created because Research Notes about Barry Castle were overwhelming a project-managed profile - Oliver St John (abt.1398-abt.1437). Research into Barry Castle's ownership was initiated because the history of Barry Castle was cited as support for the maiden name and parentage of Oliver's mother - Isabel, wife of John St. John, and said to have been born a Paveley by reputable sources although that has recently been brought into question and, more recently, she is said to have been the daughter of William Paulet and Eleanor de la Mare.[1] See comments on her profile, Isabel (Unknown) St John (1374-), which has her as wife of (1) John Paveley, (2) John St John.[2]

Contents

Barry -> St John Lineage

Much genealogical information can be gleaned from the passing of property and titles. And misinterpretations can arise, as property and titles do not always pass neatly from father to son. The following sections present lineage as gleaned from the history of Barry Castle (see collected info, below), the online tree The St. John Genealogy & DNA Project, and [coming soon] Cokayne's Complete Peerage - with links to existing WikiTree profiles. But first, here is the lineage of Oliver St John (St John-68) as found today (21 December 2022) in WikiTree.

WikiTree

See also the comment posted 22 December 2022 (starts at "end" of St John of Bledso pedigree from the Bedfordshire Visitations[3] and continues beyond Oliver m Margaret de Beauchamp.
  1. Oliver St John (abt.1398-abt.1437), married Margaret (Beauchamp) Welles (abt.1410-bef.1482) - profiles attached are for two sons and five daughters. Their sons:
    1. John St John Esq (abt.1429-bef.1490)
    2. Oliver St John (abt.1435-1497)
  2. John St John (aft.1360-abt.1424),[4] married Isabel (Unknown) St John (1374-) as her second husband, after John Paveley Jr (-1393). John St John's profile is also attached as husband of Elizabeth (Paulet) St John (1387-), who is attached as daughter of William Paulet (abt.1370-1435) and Eleanor (Mare) Paulet (abt.1377-1413), who married in 1398.
  3. John St John (-bef.1373), married Elizabeth (Bere) St John (bef.1345-) her right of dower was refused because he [John] was never seized - he died before his father - This pedigree says that too (for wife Elizabeth - no mention of surname), as well as noting that John, son of John and Elizabeth, was "a boy under age who was brought forward as claimant to the estates by Elizabeth St. John, but was said to be supposititious or illegitimate."[4]
  4. Oliver St John (abt.1315-1373), married Elizabeth Luccombe (1320-)[4]
  5. Alexander St John (-aft.1339), married Elizabeth[4]
    1. John[5] per Alexander's profile text... apparently erroneously identified as John St John (aft.1360-abt.1424) - great-grandfather of that John - who married Isabel Paveley - widow and heir of John Paveley, not the daughter and heir of "John Pavely of Paveleys Pury in Com. Northampt. Knight"
    2. Theobald[5]
    3. Henry[5] St John (abt.1335-1406)
  6. John St John (1253-1316), married Beatrix (Unknown) St John (abt.1270-)
    1. Alexander St John (-aft.1339), married Elizabeth, with sons John, Theobald, & Henry <- the Luccombe Pedigree shows that Alexander (died after 23 Oct 1339), m Elizabeth, was father of Sir Oliver (died August 1373... St_John-134), John, Theobald, & Henry (died 1406, m Isabella, parents of Edward St. John born March 1394/5 who married Joan)[4]
    2. John St John (1292-1340), married Beatrix (Unknown) St John (abt.1270-)
      1. John St John (1319-1362), married Katherine de Langeley (sister and co-heir of Thomas de Langeley)
        1. son John, born about 1354

Gleaned from Barry Castle's History

  1. William de Barry (1180–1234), had a son named Lucas closest WikiTree profile, Sir William de Barry (of Ireland) born 1180, is probably not him, although apparently this Irish family's name derives from the island of Barry off the coast of Wales (see sources listed on Barry-2628 & Wikipedia: De Barry family]). No other Barry profiles in WikiTree appear to exist for this family of Welshmen who held Barry Castle/Barry Manor. ~ Noland-165 20:52, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
  2. William died 1234/next Lucas d 1323, means there is a generation or two between them; there is evidence of a second William, adult before 1250[6]
  3. Lucas de Barry (fl. 1287-1323)... passed to his son c1322
  4. John de Barry - son of Lucas - (fl. 1300-40), married Isabelle, daughter of Philip de la More c1322 closest WikiTree profile is, apparently, Philip de la Mare (-abt.1394), which is attached as father of Eleanor (born 1377) who married William Paulet.[2] Matilda Hussey (abt.1350-), daughter of Edmund Hussey (abt.1325-1361) of Somerset, is attached as wife of Philip de la Mare/mother of Eleanor and Elias de la Mare (-abt.1415).
    1. Richard - had died without issue
    2. Thomas - had died without issue
    3. Joan - inherited ca. 1350
  5. Joan - daughter of John de Barry - (fl. 1331-51), married a Marshal... died 1351
  6. Thomas Marshal - "surviving younger son" of Joan - (fl. 1340-86) ... Barry was "sold to the St John's of Fonmon" at some point
  7. Oliver St John (fl. 1339-73), lord of Fonmon
  8. Alexander St John - younger son of Oliver - died without issue ca. 1420
  9. John St John - elder brother of Alexander/heir of Oliver (died 1424)
    1. Oliver, son and heir
    2. Alexander

St. John Genealogy & DNA

links are to the person's entry in the online tree
  1. Lord of Fonmon William de Port-St. John (1227-1311), married Isabella Cobmartin
  2. John de Port-St. John (1265-1329)
  3. Oliver de Port-St. John, of Fonmon (1326-1372), married Elizabeth de la Bere (1326-1372)
  4. Sir John de Port-St. John, Knight, of Fonmon (1371-1395), married "1387-1390" Isabella Paulet, of Barry Castle (1373-)
Barry Castle
  1. Isabella Paulet, of Barry Castle (1373-), daughter of
  2. Eleanor de la Mare (1338-1413),[2] sister of
  3. Isabella de la Mare, de Barry (1310-), wife of
  4. John de Barry (1300-1340)
    1. Joan (died 1350), married ___ Marshall
      1. Thomas Marshall (1340-1432)
    2. Richard
    3. Thomas

Visitations of Bedfordshire Pedigree

Note that the reliability of a Visitation decreases as the gap between the date the person lived and the date of the visitation increases. So the Befordshire Vistitions, taken between 1566 and 1634,[3] are less reliable when it comes to lineage stretching back to the 1200s than that of the 1500s.
  1. Will'm Seint John of ffanmon in com. Glamorgan in Wales, Knight[3]
    1. Henry Seint John, eldest sonne sans issue[3]
    2. Sir John Seint John, married Beatrix[3]
  2. Sir John Saint John of ffanmon Knight second sonne and heire to his brother, married Beatrix
  3. Alexander Seint John of ffanmon ar. Sonne and heire, married Elizabeth daughter and one of the heirs of Sir Henry Humfrevyle of Penmarke in com. Glamorgan Knight[3]
  4. Sir John St. John of ffanmon in com. Glamorgan K. sonne and heire, married Isabell daughter and heire of John Paveley of Paveleys Pury in com. Northampt. Knight[3]
  5. Sir Oliver St. John of ffanman in com. Glamorgan K. sonne and heire, married Elizabeth daughter and one of the heires of Sir John Delabere Knight[3]
  6. Sir John St. John of ffanman K. sonne and heire, married Elizabeth[3]
  7. Sir Olyver Saint John of Bletneshoe in com. Bedf. Knight sonne and heire, married Margaret daughter and heire of Sir John Beauchamp of Bletneshoe (Margaret's mother was John's wife "Edyth daughter of John Lord Stourton")[3] - Oliver died in 1437[7]
    1. Sir John St. John, sonne and heir, married Alice... Bradshawe[3]
    2. Olyver Saint John of Wiltshire second sonne[3]
    3. Agnes,[3] married Sir David Malpas[7]
    4. Mary,[3] married Sir Richard Froganall[7] - Sir Richard Tregonnel in the Visitations[3]
    5. Edyth, married Sir Geofferey Poole Knight[3]
      1. Sir Richard Poole Knight, married Margaret daughter and heire of George Duke of Clarence[3]
    6. "Elizabeth first maryed to William Lord Zouche, after to the Lord Scroope"[3]
  8. Sir John St. John, son of Olyver & Margaret (Beauchamp), married Alice, daughter of Sir Thomas Bradshawe of Hawe in com. Lanc. K[3]
    1. daughters Anne m Henry Lord Clifforde, Eleanor m Sir John Southe [Zowche], Margarett (Abbesse of Shaftesbury 1459)[3] <- !! first [only!] date given in pedigree!!
    2. second sonne Morys[3]
    3. sonne & heire Sir John St. John m Sibell[3]
      1. sons John, Olyver, Alexander - eldest, Sir John St John m Margaret Walgrave (and also had children by Anne, dau. of Thomas Neville of Cotterstock in com. Northampton, 2nd sonne of William Neville)[3]
        1. Sir Olyver St John (legitimate son) Knight Baron of Bletsoe, married Agnes daughter and heire of John ffisher, sonne and heire of Sir Michael ffyssher of Clyfton in com. Bedf. K. ...10 children listed, including[3]
          1. "John Saint John his eldest sonne [Lord St. John of Bletsho]", married "[Catherin...Dormer...]" - their daughter Anne was heire, married "Will'm Lord Howard of Effingham sonn of Charles E. of Nottingham" ... Anne is listed in brackets.[3]

Barry Castle

Oliver, son of John St John and his wife Isabel, is said to have come into possession of Barry Castle by way of his mother.[citation needed] Comments on her profile include

  • She brought Barry Castle to the de Port-St. John family because her mother was the sister of Isabella de la Mare that married John de Barry.[8]
  • In the 1429 Beauchamp Survey of Glamorgan, her son Oliver de Port-St. John was holding Barry Castle.[9]
  • "Lucas de Barry fl. by 1322 when he deeded Barry to his son John de Barry when he married Isabella de la Mare. So John and Isabella were probably born circa 1304. Eleanor her sister would likely be an adult in this period too. I doubt she married William Paulet in 1398 while being born before 1322. In 1321, John de Barry became involved in the rebellion of the barons, as a result of which his lands and goods were confiscated so he was clearly an adult by then."
  • Additional comments on Isabel's profile included the following links/comments (the links to and information from the Barry Castle articles had already been gathered):

Information about Barry Castle:

  • Barry Castle (Welsh: Castell y Barri) is a small Grade II* listed ruined two-storey gatehouse with the adjacent walls of a hall located in the Romilly district of Barry, Vale of Glamorgan in south Wales.[10]
  • "In the second half of the fourteenth century, the next owner of the castle was Oliver St. John, Lord of Fonmon, and then members of the St. Johns of Bletsoe."[11]
  • "The stone East building was raised in the 13th century, possibly by Lucas de Barry, while the more extensive south range (which comprised a hall and a gatehouse) was probably the work of John de Barry who held the manor for most of the first half of the 14th century. (Glamorgan-Gwent Archaeological Trust HER)"[12][13][14][15]
  • … same period several other deeds relating to land in the neighbourhood. A Walter de Barry also appears. He witnessed a grant of land in Bonvilston to Margam Abbey, 20th July, 1281, and another, undated, of perhaps the same period or somewhat earlier. A Lucas de Barry took part in the Comitatus, 3rd August, 1299. About 1320 a person is described in a deed as John, son and heir of William de Barry, burgess… [16]
  • …As to Barry Castle, Mr. Clark considers it to have been built (at least as regards the gateway) in the time of Henry III or Edward I, and there is no reason to doubt that it was built by one of the de Barry family.… [17]
  • Possession of Barry, according to An Inventory of the Ancient Monuments in Glamorgan...[14]
    • Lucas de Barry (fl. 1287-1323), "before his departure on campaign in Scotland with Edward I, granted his manor of 'West Barry' to his son John on his marriage to Isabelle, daughter of Philip de la More.[11]"
    • John de Barry (fl. 1300-40), "the probable builder of the phase II stone castle, was numbered with those Glamorgan tenants who were involved in the baronial uprising of 1321 and, in consequence, his lands in the lordship were confiscated.[12] His position had been restored by 1327, when he sat on an inquisition at Cardiff. John and Isabelle had two sons, Richard and Thomas, and a daughter, Joan. Both sons died without issue ca. 1350 and the manor of Barry passed to Joan (fl. 1331-51), and on her death to her surviving younger son, Thomas Marshal (fl. 1340-86).[13]
    • "From Thomas Marshal, Barry seems to have passed to Oliver St. John (fl. 1339-73), lord of Fonmon... who settled it on his younger son, Alexander, who died without issue.[14]"
  • "...before his death in 1373, Oliver made provision for his trustees to settle Fonmon on his eldest son John, and Barry on his younger son Alexander.[10] John de St John III (1373-1424)... received a royal grant... in 1406, of William de la Mare's lands at Llangennydd, which were forfeited by rebellion;...[11] ... Around 1420, he obtained possession of Barry on the death without issue of his younger brother Alexander John de la Bere's manor[18]
  • Sir John's son and heir was Oliver. Sir John's younger son was named Alexander.[18]

A timeline on a Barry webpage says that the castle was sold to the St Johns. The following entries were included (among others):[19]

  • 1295 ~ Lucas strengthens his castle with the building of a new gatehouse due to the ongoing threat of Welsh rebellion led by the deposed Welsh lord Madogap Llywellyn. The revolt proves so serious that the Marcher lord Gilbert de Clare is unable to subdue and has to call on King Edward I for help.
  • 1321 ~ John de Barry joins rebellious barons against King Edward II and as a direct result later forfeits his castle and estates.
  • 1327 ~ Upon the murder of King Edward II in Berkeley Castle, John de Barry see's his castle and estates restored to him.
    The castle is however later sold to the St John's of Fonmon, Lord of Penmark. He in turn leases the castle to John Andrew of Rhoose for life.

Lucas's ancestors, from a 2016 blogpost about Barry Castle by Jonathan and Mark Lambert: "The first recorded member of the de Barry family was one William de Barry (1180–1234). In 1225 William saw military service in Ireland fighting for King Henry III and during the years 1232-4 William de Barry was involved in Richard Marshal’s rebellion. William also witnessed charters being granted at the comitatus at Cardiff in 1201 and again in 1208. William had a son named Lucas."[6]

From the same website: "There is recorded another William de Barry as resident of Barry castle during the mid-thirteenth century. This William is also recorded as being a witness to charters being granted at the comitatus at Cardiff in 1247 and again in 1249; William was also witness to a land grant relating to Cogan. By the end of the thirteenth century Barry was in the hands of a second Lucas de Barry (1287–1323), who was present on one of Edward I Scottish campaigns. The de Barry's during the thirteenth century were clearly busy people who not only lived up to their feudal obligations on a local level but were actively engaged in national affairs of consequence."[6]

And also: "The resident lord of Barry manor at the time the gatehouse was built was John de Barry (1300-40) whose father Lucas de Barry granted John the manor upon his marriage to Isabelle, daughter of Philip de la More, before he left to embark on Edward I Scottish campaign."[6]

The website notes John's loss of his holdings (1321) and their restoration (1327) and that he had two sons and a daughter, with his daughter Joan (1331-51) the surviving heir of Barry and, upon her death, it passed to her son Thomas Marshall (1340-86). "The manor of Barry upon Thomas's death became a possession of the St John's of Fonmon who were to retain ownership of the manor for centuries to come."[6]

The blogpost said this of the St John's stewardship:

"The transfer of ownership of the manor of Barry to the St John's saw the beginning of the decline of Barry Castle as a lordly residence as it seems that the St John's did not invest in its maintenance. It is likely that the disasters of the middle of the fourteenth century such as plague and famine contributed towards this decline.
"By the time John Leland visited Barry Castle in the 1530’s it had become ruinous as Leland records 'this castle stondith on a little hil, and most of it is in ruine. Master St John of Bedfordshire is lorde of it'. ... In the year 1666 the manor of Barry was sold by the St John's to Evan Says of Boverton for £1,740."[6]

Sources

  1. ↑ Suzanne St. John, The St. John Genealogy & DNA Project, entry for Eleanor de la Mare (accessed 21 December 2022). Note: Source information for this online tree is not public (login required to access documentation).
  2. ↑ 2.0 2.1 2.2 William Paulet (abt.1370-1435) & Eleanor (Mare) Paulet (abt.1377-1413) (in WikiTree, accessed 22 December 2022).
  3. ↑ 3.00 3.01 3.02 3.03 3.04 3.05 3.06 3.07 3.08 3.09 3.10 3.11 3.12 3.13 3.14 3.15 3.16 3.17 3.18 3.19 3.20 3.21 3.22 3.23 3.24 Frederick Augustus Blayden, Ed. The Visitations of Bedfordshire, 1566, 1582, 1634. London, 1884. Pages 51-55, St John of Bletsoe pedigree, accessed 22 December 2022
  4. ↑ 4.0 4.1 4.2 4.3 4.4 Luccombe Pedigree (image attached to several profiles in this family, accessed 22 December 2022).
  5. ↑ 5.0 5.1 5.2 https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7573781
  6. ↑ 6.0 6.1 6.2 6.3 6.4 6.5 Jonathan and Mark Lambert, Barry Castle blogpost, 12 July 2016 (accessed 21 December 2022).
  7. ↑ 7.0 7.1 7.2 Wikipedia: Margaret Beauchamp of Bletso (c1410-before 3 June 1482), accessed 22 December 2022. First husband, Oliver St. John, died 1437.
  8. ↑ https://stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I11682&tree=OSA0001
  9. ↑ https://stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I104783382&tree=OSA0001
  10. ↑ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Castle
  11. ↑ https://medievalheritage.eu/en/main-page/heritage/wales/barry-castle/
  12. ↑ http://www.castlefacts.info/castledetails/castledetails3?uin=20343
  13. ↑ http://www.gatehouse-gazetteer.info/Welshsites/343.html
  14. ↑ 14.0 14.1 An Inventory of the Ancient Monuments in Glamorgan ..., page 24
  15. ↑ Search of BHO for Lucas de Barry had one result - viewing it requires a subscription, but the following was included in the results:
    • Devonia. Lucas de Barry attornavit coram rege Radulfum Barn' in loquela que est... ~ 'Close Rolls, June 1237', in Calendar of Close Rolls, Henry III: Volume 3, 1234-1237, ed. H C Maxwell Lyte (London, 1908), pp. 534-539. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/cal-close-rolls/hen3/vol3/pp534-539 [accessed 21 December 2022].
  16. ↑ Reports and transactions (Cardiff Naturalists' Society), 1900-1981, Vol. LVI, 1 Ionawr 1923, Tudalen: 232 (attempted to access 21 December 2022 - does not load to my computer).
  17. ↑ Reports and transactions (Cardiff Naturalists' Society), 1900-1981, Vol. LVI, 1 Ionawr 1923, Tudalen: 233 (does not load to my computer).
  18. ↑ 18.0 18.1 An Inventory of the Ancient Monuments in Glamorgan ..., page 148.
  19. ↑ https://castle-finders.co.uk/Wales/barry%20castle.html

Acknowledgements

revised bit on St John-68, as of about noon (ET), 21 December:

See the WikiTree page about Barry Castle for a potential trail for this Oliver's 3x-gr-grandson - Oliver St John MP (abt.1543-1618) - between Gateway Ancestor Thomas Booth and Magna Carta Surety Baron Henry de Bohun. (The trail information was removed from that profile because the Magna Carta Project will not be developing the trail. The project has been streamlining and, since Thomas Booth already has a trail to a surety baron, will not be pursuing additional trails him. See the project's base camp for more information about Magna Carta trails.) ~ Noland-165 15:18, 6 May 2019 (UTC) / updated 21 December 2022


Magna Carta Project

No Magna Carta trail
A descendant of this Oliver St John, with the same name, is documented by Richardson as having a trail to a Magna Carta surety baron. This Oliver ([St John-68]) is not (the trail goes through this Oliver's wife Margaret de Beauchamp). ~ Noland-165 14:53, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
See St_John-338#Magna Carta Project - that Oliver St John is this one's 3x-gr-grandfather & shows a potential trail between Gateway Ancestor Thomas Booth and Magna Carta Surety Baron Henry de Bohun. See the Magna Carta Project's base camp for more information about Magna Carta trails. ~ Noland-165 15:18, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

update, 20 December 2022 - the Magna Carta Project section was removed from St John-338, since the project will not be developing the trail it is in. The following, which was copied from the change details page for the other Oliver (St John-338), has been edited slightly to indicate that it is about a different Oliver, NOT St John-68:

The profile for the other Oliver - Oliver St John MP (abt.1543-1618) - St John-338) is not part of a trail under review by the [[Project:Magna_Carta|Magna Carta Project] but was developed in accordance with project standards. ~ Liz Shifflett, 27 October 2017, 12:08 (EDT)
The trail for Oliver St John-338 (the other Oliver) runs from Magna Carta Surety Baron Henry de Bohun to Gateway Ancestor Thomas Booth.




Collaboration