Cochoit Working 14

Contents 1 Biography 1.1 Birth 1.2 Marriage and Children 1.3 Death 2 Research Notes 3 Sources

Biography

Humphrey Poyntz Esq was the younger son of Nicholas Poyntz and his first wife Elizabeth Mille.^[1][2][3][4] He is roughly estimated to have been born about 1425 based on the estimated birth dates of his siblings. The fact that his son and heir was born in 1466 would seem to suggest a much later birth date. However, he was at least age 21 in 1455, and it is known that he had eight younger siblings, of which several were married, by 1450, so it could not have been much later.

He is described as being of Langley and Umberleigh, Devon, Elkstone, Gloucestershire, and, in right of his wife, of East Anstey (or Anstey Cruse) and Over Woolacombe (in Mortehoe), Devon.^[5] The manors of East Ansey had been in dispute for many decades and subsequent lawsuits help prove her ancestry.^[6][7][8] Though his father lived his life in Gloucester, it is clear that Humphrey moved to Devon where his wife was from. The manor of Elkstone was settled on Humphrey by his father.^[9] Confirmation of this grant by Richard III in 1484 referred to him as Humphrey Poynyz of Womberleigh, co. Devon, alias Humphrey Poynes of Langlegh, co. Devon, and alias Humphrey Poyntz of Langlegh, co. Devon.^[10] In 1460 and 1461, Humphrey was appointed escheator for Devon.^[11][12]

He married Elizabeth Pollard by 26 March 1455 when Humphrey Poyntz attempted to present at East Anstey in her right.^[13] She was the daughter of Richard Pollard and Thomasine Cruwys. In 1486, Humphrey Poyntz and Elizabeth his wife settled the manor of Over Woolacombe (in Mortehoe) on his daughter Katherine and her husband Fulk Prideaux with remainders to her brothers Nicholas and William, with a final remainder to the right heirs of Elizabeth.^[14]

He died on 10 October 1487. His heir was his son Nicholas Poyntz, aged 21 years and more. Nothing more is heard of Nicholas and he presumably died without leaving heirs. His other son William came to hold Elkstone as his daughters were suing for Elkstone by 1515.

Birth

Born: Say 1425.

An estimated birth date is difficult to pin down on Humphrey Poyntz. His son and heir was not born until 1466, and we would normally estimate his birth as being about 1441 with a range of 1435 to 1445 being the most reasonable. However, he was at least 21 years old when he was married to Elizazbeth Pollard and old enough to present at East Anstey in 1455. Also, we know his father had eight children by a second wife by 1450. At least two of these daughters were married, and one of which was married by 1437. It would seem his father was having these 8 children by 1430. Furthermore, Humphrey's older brother is estimated to have been born about 1420 and you would expect Humprey to have been born in a similar time frame. The best guestimate without more information is to say Humprey was born in the mid 1420s.

Marriage and Children

Married: Elizabeth Pollard before 26 March 1455 when he presented at East Anstey.

Children of Humphrey Poyntz and Elizabeth Pollard:

1. Katherine Poyntz. She married Fulk Prideaux.^[15][16][17]
2. Nicholas Poyntz. Born about 1466 (age 21 in 1487). Son and heir. He apparently died without heirs as his brother William would come to hold their father's lands.
3. William Poyntz. Born say 1468. Younger son. Apparently, heir of his brother of their father's land. The name of his wife is unknown, but they had two daughters, Elizabeth and Wilmot. William died before 1515.

Death

Died: 10 October 1487 in England (almost certainly in Devon or Gloucester).

Date from his IPM.

Inquisition Post Mortem: for Humphrey Poyntz gent.^[18]

Writ 23 Oct. 1487.^[19] Inq. on 29 Oct. 1487

By deed dated 4 May, 13 Edw. IV, one John Orchard and William Coffyn gave the under-mentioned manor to him in tail male, with remainder to the right heirs of one Nicholas Poyntz, his father. He obtained from King Ric. III letters patent of pardon for all acquisitions of land, &c.

He died 10 Oct., 3 Hen. VII. Nicholas Poyntz, aged 21 and more, is his son and heir.

GLOUC. Manor of Elkeston, worth 5 marks, held of the King in chief, by service 1/15 of a knight’s fee.

C. Series II. Vol. 3. (61,).

Research Notes

Suffix: He was called a gentleman in his writ and IPM. He was called esquire in the confirmation of the Elkstone grant by his father. He was never a knight.

Marriage and his wife's inheritance dispute:

Following the death Robert Cruwys in 1404, the Cruwys manors of East Anstey and Rackenford fell into a long running dispute between the daughters of Robert Cruwys who claimed the manors had been given to them by their father, and Robert's son who claimed the manors were entailed to the heir male. This dispute would be played out in many lawsuits, which lasted until at least the late 1470s. Humphrey Poyntz married Elizabeth Pollard, daughter of Thomasine Cruwys, the daughter of the said Robert Cruwys, and so became a part of this dispute.

On 26 March 1455, Humphrey Poyntz and the other descendants of the Robert's daughters jointly presented to the advowson at East Anstey. This was countered by John Cruwys who presented his own candidate. This record establishes that Humphrey and Elizabeth were married by this date, and that Elizabeth's parents were dead by this date.

Sources

Footnotes and Citations:

1. ↑ Richardson. Royal Ancestry. (2013): vol. IV page 291.
2. ↑ Maclean. Visitation of Gloucester taken in 1623. (1885): page 130, Poyntz pedigree.
3. ↑ Metcalfe. Visitations of Essex, vol. 1. (1878): pages 267-271.
4. ↑ Berry. Families of Sussex. (1830): pages 351-353.
5. ↑ Richardson. Royal Ancestry. (2013): vol. IV page 291.
6. ↑ Pole. Description of Devon. (1791): page 420.
7. ↑ Wrottesley. Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls. (1906): pages 408-409; page 435; page 452.
8. ↑ See the profile of Robert Cruwys for more details.
9. ↑ GB PRO. Cal.of the Close Rolls, H. VI 1454-1461, vol. 6. (1947): page 465.
10. ↑ GB PRO. Cal. of the Fine Rolls, volume 20. (1949): page 84.
11. ↑ GB PRO. Cal. of the Fine Rolls, vol.19. (1939): page 292.
12. ↑ GB PRO. Cal. of the Fine Rolls, vol. 20. (1949): page 10.
13. ↑ Hingeston-Randolph. Register of Edmund Lacy, part III. (1968). pages 206-208.
14. ↑ Some Notes on Medieval Genealogy website. Feet of Fines Abstracts, CP 25/1/46/93.
15. ↑ MacLean Deanery of Trigg Minor, vol. 2 (1876): page 223 (pedigree chart).
16. ↑ Colby. Visitation of Devon in 1564. (1881): Page 175.
17. ↑ Note: This Visitation shows the wrong mother for Fulk Prideaux.
18. ↑ GB PRO. Cal. of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Hen. VII, vol. 1. (1898): pages 133-134, Humphrey Poyntz.
19. ↑ GB PRO. Cal. of the Fine Rolls,1485-1509, vol. 22. (1962): page 69.

Source list:

• Berry, William. County Genealogies: Pedigrees of the Families in the County of Sussex. (London, 1830): pages 351-353.

• Colby, Frederic Thomas ed. Visitation of the County of Devon in the year 1564, with additions from the earlier Visitation of 1531. (Exeter, 1881): PAGE 175. Note: This Visitation shows the wrong mother for Fulk Prideaux.

• Great Britain. Calendar of the Close Rolls, Henry VI 1454-1461, volume 6. (London, 1947): page 82, page 134, page 465.

• Great Britain. Calendar of the Fine Rolls, Henry VI: 1452-1461, volume 19. (London, 1939): page 292.

• Great Britain. Calendar of the Fine Rolls, Edward IV, Henry VI: 1461-1471, volume 20. (London, 1949): page 10.

• Great Britain. Calendar of the Fine Rolls, Edward IV, Henry VI: 1485-1509, volume 22. (London, 1962): page 69; page 84.

• Great Britain, Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Henry VII: 1485-1496, Volume 1. (London, 1898): pages 133-134, Humphrey Poyntz.

• Hingeston-Randolph, Rev. F.C. Register of Edmund Lacy, Bishop of Exeter (A.D. 1420-1455), part III. (1968). pages 207-208. (Ancestry.com $ubscription).

• Maclean, John. Historical and Genealogical Memoir of the Family of Poyntz, part I. (Exeter, 1886): pages 57-59, pages 94-97.

• Maclean, John. Historical and Genealogical Memoir of the Family of Poyntz, part II. (Exeter, 1886): page 256.

• Maclean, Sir John ed. Visitation of the County of Gloucester taken in the year 1623. (London: Harleian Society Visitation Series vol. 21, 1885): page 130, Poyntz pedigree. Google Books Internet Archive.

• MacLean, Sir John , The Parochial and Family History of the Deanery of Trigg Minor, in the County of Cornwall, volume 2 (1876): page 223 (pedigree chart).

• Metcalfe, Walter C. ed. Visitations of Essex by Hawley, 1552; Hervey, 1558; Cooke, 1570; Raven, 1612; and Owen and Lilly, 1634. To which are added Miscellaneous Essex Pedigrees from Various Harleian Manuscripts: and an Appendix containing Berry's Essex Pedigrees, volume I. (London: Harleian Society Visitation Series volume 13, 1878): pages 267-271.

• Phillips, Chris. "Feet of Fines Abstracts: CP 25/1/46/93" at Some Notes on Medieval Genealogy website. Fine CP 25/1/46/93 #1.

• Pole, William. Collections Towards a Description of the Country of Devon. (1791): page 420.

• Richardson, Douglas. Royal Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, in 5 volumes. (Salt Lake City, Utah, 2013): vol. IV page 291.

• Wrottesley, George. Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls. (1906): pages 408-409; page 435; page 452.

See also:

• Burke, John. A Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Commoners of Great Britain, volume 3. (London, 1836): pages 537-540.

• Dallaway, James. A History of the Western Division of the County of Sussex, volume 2 part 1 (London, 1815): pages 283-284.

• Great Britain. Royal Commission. Fourth Report of the Royal Commission on Historical Manuscripts. (1874): page 378.

https://books.google.com/books?id=wbgEAAAAIAAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&printsec=frontcover&pg=PA75&dq=%22nicholas+poyntz%22+gloucester&hl=en#v=onepage&q=%22nicholas%20poyntz%22%20&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=BFM34otXHxAC&pg=PA234&dq=%22nicholas+poyntz%22+gloucester&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjZuZzS86uEAxWJIEQIHb-AAlg4KBDoAXoECAsQAg#v=onepage&q=%22nicholas%20poyntz%22%20gloucester&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=NPw1AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA13&dq=%22nicholas+poyntz%22+gloucester&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjZuZzS86uEAxWJIEQIHb-AAlg4KBDoAXoECAoQAg#v=onepage&q=%22nicholas%20poyntz%22%20&f=false

https://jtbullock.com/Tree/HextMargery.html

CCR 1468-1476. Pg 57: 1470 . Feb. 12. To the escheator in the county of Gloucester and the march of Wales adjoining. Order in presence of John son and heir of Nicholas Poyntz esquire , to assign dower to Elizabeth late wife of the aforesaid Nicholas , of whom the king has taken an oath that she will not marry without his consent . Membrane

CCR 1468-1476. Pg 149: 1470, Dec. 7. To the escheator in the county of Gloucester. Order to assign dower to Elizabeth, formerly wife of Nicholas Poyntz deceased, in the presence of John son and heir of the above named Nicholas, reasonable dower out of her husband's lands, having taken of her an oath that she will not remarry without the king's consent.

I have reviewed the article in The Great Migration, and I do not think I am dissuaded from anything written in the profile. This could get complicated and is perhaps best taken to GTG.

The article states that Humphrey Atherton was from Winwick, Lancashire, that his wife was named Mary and that his first two children were born in Winwick in 1628 and 1631.

The article then states that a Humphrey Atherton married Mary Kinnion in 1625 and that Mary was the daughter of James Kennion who named Mary and Humphrey in his will in 1632. However, he then turns around and says that maybe the immigrant Humphrey Atherton of Winwick, who baptized his children in Winwick who had multiple known associates from Winwick was not the same person as the Humphrey Atherton who married Mary Kennion in Winwick at exactly the right moment to be the father of the two children baptized in Winwick.

Huh? With that logic we might as well throw out all English origins as guess work as we can always speculate that maybe there was another man living at the exact same time, in the exact same place, with the exact same name, and who married a woman with the exact same name as the first man's wife.

The article then notes that James Kinnion called his son-in-law "of Winstanley", but speculates that he is more likely the same as Humphrey Atherton of Pemberton who was having children from 1630 to 1635. Who? Why? If we know James Atherton's daughter Mary was married in 1625, why wouldn't she be the one having children baptized in the same parish in 1628 and 1631, rather than a different parish in 1630?

The article does not in any way dissuade me from saying Humphrey Atherton the immigrant from Winwick is the same as the Humphrey Atherton who married Mary Kinnion in Winwick.

The bigger question is, is the immigrant Humphrey Atherton of Winwick, who married Mary Kinnion, the same as Humphrey Atherton son of Edmund Atherton of Winstanley. This is less certain, and the profile currently hedges on saying this definitively. The Great Migration article says there is no substantiative connection between the two. This ignores, or the author was unaware, that Humphrey Atherton was "of Wigan" in his marriage record, married in Winwick and called "of Winstanley" in his father-in-law's will; Edmund of Winstanley requested burial in Upholland, near Wigan, in his will. The article suggests that the more promising way of looking for the parentage of Humphrey Atherton of Winwick is to look at other Atherton families in Winwick. Again, why? Humphrey Atherton was "of Wigan" in his marriage record in 1625 and "of Winstanley" in his father-in-law's will in 1632. The place to look is Winstanley and Wigan, which happens to match the history of Edmund Atherton.

So there was a coincidence of Humphrey of Winwick also being associated with Wigan and Winstanley; just like Edmund was associated with Upholland near Wigan and Winstanley. While there may be another Humphrey in Winwick (speculating), we are probably looking for a Humphrey from Wigan and this matches the son of Edmund.