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Discussion between Amanda Torrey and Helen Rice

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RESPONSE FROM Moyer-780 22:17, 16 May 2021 (UTC):

I want to state up front that no matter what we may say about what Helen's sources may mean in the long run, she is AWESOME! Every source will add to some story somewhere even if at the moment I don't think it's here and this is why:

There are strong possibilities that we have confused two Richard Harveys: one born in Georgia and one that was born in Virginia. I think we need to step back and take a closer look at our evidence. Wouldn't it be awful if there's a ton of information for a man from Virginia who fought in Valley Forge that could benefit from all of these rich sources? And yet what's left is a whole bunch of sourcing for our ancestor from Georgia?

DNA To begin: my biggest issue (and there are others) is how my autosomal DNA when compared with others from a given family can be genetically matched to Helen and not to me. I know at least my mtDNA is attached to his wife, Elizabeth which is not conclusive, but when with other evidence makes it more than passingly possible that this is a different family..To do a proper DNA comparison, it is necessary to compare groups as opposed to mere samples within those groups. See https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Common_Genome_of_Descendants_of_Francis_Bird for an example of the correct methodology.

If Helen has connections even remotely with family members different from me, it would seem they are connected to her through another line? We have to be careful as our connections to the world tree can be both direct as in straight from parent to child or indirectly through a parent marrying someone after their partner is gone.

1) There are DNA links between descendants of Richard Harvey, Sr. and Elizabeth Morell and descendants of William Harvey, Jr. and Margaret Beall that may provide leads for future research on Harvey's ancestry. Those links are under 7 cMs, suggesting a very distant relationship amongst modern-day descendants.[1]

There are 6 degrees of Separation in a direct link between Amanda (Moyer) Torrey and Richard Harvey who is married to Elizabeth (Morel) Harvey [1]. We also see 6 degrees of Separation in a direct link between Amanda (Moyer) Torrey and their son Isaac Harvey.

There are 10 Degrees of Separation between Amanda (Moyer) Torrey and Mark Richardson [2]

I have no idea why Mark Richardson kit doesn't show up for me on gedmatch.

Through the Relationship Tool, we see 12 Degrees of separation if a Direct" connection between Amanda (Moyer) Torrey and Tery Bell. What this means is the connection is between genetically linked family members, not marriages. [3]

Adding Gedmatch: : Largest segment = 11.1 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 11.1cM (0.31 Pct) Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 5.2 1 shared segments found for this comparison. 414514 SNPs used for this comparison. 70.364 Pct SNPs are full identical Shows up on the 19th Chromosome

Through the Relationship Tool we see 11 degrees of separation of a direct connection between me and Helen Rice [4] Gedmatch: Largest segment = 7.3 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) 7.3cM (0.202 Pct) Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 7.5 1 shared segments found for this comparison. 413214 SNPs used for this comparison. 70.544 Pct SNPs are full identical Comparison took 0.234. CPU time used: 0.04. Sits on the 14th Chromosome

There are no connections between Amanda (Moyer) Torrey and William Harvey, Jr. from Maryland. [5]

Interesting thing is that though not a direct line, there is a "connection" between William Harvey, Jr. and me through Amanda (Moyer) Torrey father from Pennsylvania and his mother's ancestors through marriage. [6]

There is a sketchy 19 degrees of Separation between William Harvey Jr. and Hannah Starling [7]

No gedmatch between Amanda (Moyer) Torrey and Hannah Starling,

2) There are also DNA links between descendants of William Harvey - who may be the same man as William Harvey, Sr. - and Margaret "Peggy" Wheeler - who may be a second wife [New England]

and descendants of Richard Harvey, Sr. and Elizabeth Morell. Those links too are under 7 cMs, though a few approach that threshold.[2]

Though they might have a connection with each other, after working my way through 1), I think we've dispelled the DNA connection between the New England and Georgian Harveys. As I said, this connection does not look like it has to do with Richard Harvey as it does with Helen Rice.

I believe Mark Richardson took his account off Gedmatch because as I've said, I can't find him there. I'm disappointed that I can't access his information. On the other hand I am deeply impressed with what Terry Byrd has accomplished and will use it on my Torrey ONS study as well. Collecting and categorizing genetically linked "Cohorts" on every profile with common names like Jones, Wise and Harvey should have one of these.

Helen how do you find these cool sourcing tools?

3) Finally, there are DNA links between descendants of Thomas Harvey and Cassandra Gott and descendants of Richard Harvey, Sr. and Elizabeth Morell.[3]

Even before doing the Gedmatch between me and The Gotts, through the "Relationship" tool, there's a connection by marriage on my father's family from Pennsylvania which has NOTHING to do with my mother from Georgia (See [8])

This is fairly persuasive proof that William Harvey, Sr./ William Harvey and Richard Harvey, Sr. share a common ancestor, and that the Montgomery Co. Harveys, the Bryan Co. Harveys and the Baltimore Co. Harveys are all related.

I'm not seeing the correlations at all. What I'm seeing is that there are completely different branches of Harveys represented here that Helen may or may not be connected to, but they don't seem to be connected to me and I'm not entirely sure the best way to sort them out. Helen and I are matched, with our common ancestor being Richard Harvey and Elizabeth Morel. I may be mistaken, but I compared both you and me with John Bowen and at least as far as I could tell there isn't any matches and I tried several times. I didn't see any with Hannah Starling either. I suspect they are attached to a different Harvey.

SOURCES So, if for the time being, we put Richard Harvey's "Virginia" sources aside, then other profiles are seen through a WHOLE OTHER context and a completely different picture emerges:

To get a better picture of Elizabeth's place of birth, I looked at her father John Morel.

On May 9, 2021, with regard to the Virginia issue I wrote: John Morel's Headrights Platts between the years 1757 and 1765 which would have made Elizabeth Morel Harvey's birth in Virginia unlikely... (See discussion in John giving the background of John Morel owning the water rites of the inland rivers which provided the shipping of crops originating from farms different from the fiercely competitive coastal plantations) Where it is certainly true there are branches in my family who came from Savannah and the Carolinas, it's always been my experience that this part of the family was a back Georgia, (Bulloch County) and points west people. They never got themselves so involved with the Slavery issues of the day, but were Evangelical. I think Morel had some idea of controlling the riverways outside the Savannah River, especially as the Salzburgers were so successful at production. 1600 acres of river way is pretty amazing.

Helen's Response May 10, 2021 There are a couple of thoughts. What you are posting may be true but I believe more supporting documents are needed. It is well documented that Richard Harvey enlisted in Virginia. According to records and family trees, their first children were born in Virginia at the time of the Revolutionary War. This places Elizabeth in Virginia. If she was not born there, how did she get there? The John you are researching is mentioned in at least 2 references with the 1740 birth date. Where was he born, where did he live and die? Where are documents that confirm who he married and who his children were? Are you sure the headright plats you found belong to the John you are researching or do they belong to the John (or his son John) that owned property in Chatham and surrounding counties including Ossabaw Island. These are things to think about. In addition, I believe you had previously mentioned a possible North Carolina connection to Richard and Elizabeth. Was that eliminated? I agree finding facts from the 1700’s is difficult but there has to be something more to connect the John you are researching to Elizabeth. If I find anything, and I’m still looking too, I’ll let you know. Helen

My response It would not have been possible for the owner of the water ways that brought product from inland farms would have created a means for the inland farms to be successful. Their whole agenda was to get those farmers to bend and obey and in fact contribute to the plantations product. The inland farmers (being the Salzburgers) at the time we're talking about were much more profitable than the plantations AND they had the attention of the European world. EVERYBODY was throwing money at the Salzburgers. There would have been no purpose for coastal plantations who were fighting for their lifestyle to make the inland farms MORE profitable. In fact there was a man in Savannah office part of the Georgia Trustees that took the benefits earmarked for the Salzburgers from Europe and surreptitiously sent it to plantation owners. Smarmy. All this is in the Salzburger Study I did for the Southern Colonies Project, but no, they would not have been the same man.

Additionally, what was very cool was 4 Jul 1775 John Morel is Elected to the Provincial Congress of Georgia for the District of Ebenezer. Serves as Captain in the Continental Army (See Image) (This is also on his profile) The reason John Morel was elected to the Provincial Congress was because he was a successful man in Ebenezer, not in Chatham County.

This is important because John Morel would not have been able to have a daughter in Virginia and develop and whole world in Ebenezer.

There is a Morel who came into port and went up to Highgrave Georgia where there was a French Settlement that eventually became part of Ebenezer. AND I've just begun.

The DNA bothers me most, but in the few weeks I've been finding sources, I think there's enough sourcing to show the possibility my John Morel was Elizabeth's father which is every bit as compelling as Helen's unsourced trees.

I believe Elizabeth's Birthplace needs clarification before deciding shewere from Virginia and not Georgia. Considering the nature of the information here, it is more likely that Richard Harvey met Elizabeth and married her in Georgia. He probably had opportunity when his division came south to assist Georgia when the British were destroying Effingham County.

D phew...

Moyer-780 23:09, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

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