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England Project - England Profile Standards

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Related pages: | The England Project Managed Profiles Page | The England Project Managed Profiles Team

This page was last revised on 28 May 2024: Locations and Locaton Fields: Great Britain and United Kingdom Previous Revisions

Contents

The England Project aims to develop the profiles of all people born in England to the highest possible standard with

  • well sourced biographies using inline references,
  • appropriate categories and images,
  • research notes (if required) and
  • connection to the global tree.

This page is intended as a guide for Wikitree members developing English profiles. If you have a question about the specifics of English profile building, help is available at any stage from:

  • the Wikitree England Google group or the England Discord Channel if you are a member of the England Project
  • by asking a question on G2G - add the tag ENGLAND so that the England Project team sees it.
  • contacting the relevant County team

The England Project follows Wikitree's Styles and Standards.

Additionally:

  • Font: Wikitree standard default font.
  • Type colour: black
  • Spelling: as per the Oxford English Dictionary
  • Punctuation: avoid the use of exclamation marks and do not use emojis.
  • The use of the Oxford Comma is acceptable.

Names

The WikiTree Name Field Guidelines provide detailed information for each name field. The following are specific to English Profiles:

  • When creating a profile ensure that names are correctly spelled, especially with respect to the Last Name at Birth (LNAB).
  • Use the LNAB on the earliest record available for that person. If this differs to the spelling of the parents, or is different to how the parents were known, use the most common spelling of the name and add variations in the Other Last Names field and also in the Biography or Reference Notes. If in doubt, start a question on G2G or ask the England Project.
  • If the family used an "alias" surname, use this guidance here
  • If the LNAB is truly not known, enter Unknown in mixed case.
  • Do not use the name fields for descriptive placeholders (such as an occupation, social class or location) unless that person would have been well known by such a description, it formed part of his/her name during his/her lifetime and it is documented in a source. These instances are entered in the Other Nicknames field and must be corroborated in the biography.
  • Do not add your own personal codes for family members in the name fields. This includes DNA haplogroup codes and military service numbers.
  • Do not use punctuation in the name fields apart from hyphens or apostrophes as part of a name or location. Do not add a full stop (period) after an abbreviation in the prefix/suffix fields.
  • Middle names are rare before 1700.
  • Do not assume that a married woman took her husband's surnames on marriage especially in the English counties adjoining Scotland. The Scottish tradition is for the woman to keep the name she was born with.
  • Titles of Nobility are entered in the Other Nicknames field.

Prefix field

  • Do not enter Mr, Mrs, Miss in the prefix field. These titles may be used in the Biography.
  • Use Sir when
    • a man was knighted (do not use Knight or an abbreviation thereof in the suffix field.)
    • when he was created a Baronet. A Baronet was not dubbed by the Monarch unless he was already a Knight and then was elevated to a Baronetcy.
  • Sir is sometimes seen used as a courtesy title for a priest 17th Century and before. Do not use Sir in the prefix field in this instance.
  • Dame is the female equivalent of an English knight (i.e. at the rank of knight in her own right). The wife of a Knight is now styled Lady, but Dame was also used historically. In her profile, use whatever the woman herself used. [1]
  • Do not add temporary positions or posts to the prefix field
  • Military rank - enter the highest rank attained.

Suffix field

  • Do not use Senior and Junior in the suffix box. Only use it in the biography if the people themselves used that designation (rare in English families) and it is documented in a source.
  • Do not use generational numbering for given names repeated in successive generations.
  • Esquire (abbreviated to Esq) is used historically only where the person was of the gentry but not nobility.
  • Do not use the word Knight as a suffix when a man held that title. If a knight has an Award of Chivalry, the letters denoting the Award of Chivalry goes in the suffix field. [2]
  • The suffix field may be used for Honours bestowed by the Monarch (Crown Honours) or military awards
  • The suffix field may be used for academic awards and membership of professional bodies or learned societies.
  • The Order of Precedence of post-nominal letters is listed here in Debrett's
  • We use the titles for English Nobility as per the naming conventions developed by the European Aristocrats team (Euroaristo) and specifically their British Royal and Aristocrats team when using the name fields. Titles are entered in the "Other Nicknames" data field.
  • Knights are referred as "Sir Forename Surname" in the biography, shortened to Sir Forename (never Sir Surname). [2]

Dates

  • English date notation is day-month-year. Type the date in full in the data fields. Spell out the date in full (including the full word for the month) in the Biography.
  • Dates should be as precise as possible. If you are unable to confirm an exact date an estimate is acceptable with an explanation in the biography.
  • Until 1751 in England, the year began on 25 March (Lady Day). This is referred to as Old style or OS.
  • From 1752 the year began on 1 January. This is referred to as New Style or NS. (1751 was a short year).
  • Pre-1752, the period between 1 January and 24 March is shown in the biography as a combination of the two years. Thus 20 February 1664 OS will be 20 February 1665 NS. It is written as 20 February 1664/5.
  • Pre-1752 dates 1 January to 24 March are entered in the date fields as the later year (20 February 1665 in the example above).
  • Note that Scotland had already changed to the New Year starting 1 January in 1600.
  • The change from the Julian to Gregorian calendar also occurred in England in 1752. Wednesday 2 September 1752 was followed by Thursday 14 September 1752. The eleven days in between did not exist. No adjustment should be made in the modern Gregorian calendar for the days lost in the changeover from the Julian calendar.
  • More about these changes in the English calendar can be found here.

Locations and Location Fields

It is important to structure locations consistently within the Location Fields so that profiles can be retrieved in a country search for England. If you wish to enter a variant of this structure it can be entered in the Biography section (which is not part of the WikiTree search system).

  • Any profile which had a birth, marriage or death in England must contain the word England in that Location Field.
  • English locations must be entered in the Location Fields in the English language.
  • Places of birth and death are entered in the location data fields in this order (smallest geographical unit to largest):
    • Village or town, county, England
    • or
    • District of a city, city, county, England
  • Street addresses are not entered in the Location Fields, but may be noted in the biography.
  • Postal codes are not used in the Location Fields.
  • Religious parishes are not entered in the Location Fields UNLESS that parish was a recognised district of a town or city.
  • If a person was born, married or died at sea, the location should be recorded as ‘At sea’. This can, if applicable, be followed by words that give a more precise indication of the vessel and/or where the event occurred, such as “At sea, name of ship/vessel, name of body of water.
  • Great Britain came into being with the union of England and Scotland in 1707. From 1801, Great Britain was superseded by the United Kingdom. [3] Do not use Great Britain in an English location before 1707 or after 1801. In the Location Fields write Great Britain (and only "Great Britain", do not use any variants) in full. Great Britain is in addition to England and does not replace it:
    • Village or town, county, England, Great Britain
  • The United Kingdom came into being in 1801 with the union of Great Britain and Ireland. [4] Do not use United Kingdom in an English location before this date.
  • In the Location Fields write United Kingdom (and only "United Kingdom", do not use any variants) in full. United Kingdom is in addition to England and does not replace it:
    • Village or town, county, England, United Kingdom
  • It is not a requirement to add Great Britain or United Kingdom after England in their respective time periods.
  • Wales is a country in its own right and not part of England.
  • Where the most precise location found for an event is a Registration District (for post-1837 events), the Registration District may be included in the location in the form [X Registration District, County, England]. This should be regarded as a temporary description until the precise place is known.
    • The county given in the location field is the one defined by UKBMD [5] even if the Registration District straddles County lines.
    • The biography should also make it clear that the location refers to the Registration District, rather than a village or town which may have the same name.
    • If the Registration District name contains an ampersand (e,g, “Ashton & Oldham”), replace it with the word “and” (e.g.”Ashton and Oldham Registration District, Lancashire, England”).
  • Where the most precise location for a birth or death is a baptism or burial in a parish, (which may contain several towns and/or villages), the parish may be included in the location. The biography should make it clear that the location refers to the name of the parish, rather than a village or town (which may have the same name). Be aware that a baptism or burial record does not confirm that the birth or death occurred in that parish, so the location should be marked as "Uncertain". Record the location as "Place" rather than "Parish of Place" or "Place parish".
  • Hundreds and wapentakes are ancient administrative divisions of counties. They are not included in the location fields, and only in the biographies of pre-1500 profiles where indicated. Similarly, Ridings (Yorkshire) are not included in the location fields but may be added in the biography
  • Place names beginning with "St" (e.g. St Ives) are abbreviated (rather than spelled out in full "Saint") and do not have a full stop after the "St"
  • Categories for English place names are described on this page. If the place does not yet have a category, ask for one to be created if you have a profile to go in it. We do not intentionally create empty categories. All locations are categorised according to their original county location rather than the county that they were transferred to in later county boundary changes.

Counties within England

  • The word "county" is not used when naming a county ("Essex" is just "Essex", not "Essex County"). The only exception to this rule is "County Durham" which should always be entered as such, and not just "Durham" which is a city within County Durham.
  • There are 39 historic counties in England plus the City Of London and "City and County of Bristol". Further details of historic names and subunits are in Vision of Britain. Use these historic counties rather than modern counties for locations of events before 1974. After 1974, check the designation of the location against its Wikipedia entry; some will still be in the original county, some may be in a different ceremonial county due to boundary changes.
  • The (County of) London (1889-1965) and Greater London (1965 to date) are to be used in the location fields for places which were absorbed into these new counties in the appropriate time frame. (See the table below for a more detailed explanation.) These places are categorised by their historic county with London in brackets as part of the category name (example: Islington, Middlesex (London) )
  • Do not abbreviate the county name in the location fields. The county name abbreviations are given only for information in the table below.
  • The 3-letter Chapman County Codes were often used in old GEDCOM uploads. [6] These are listed below against the relevant county. If you find them on a profile, please expand them to the full county name.
  • Widespread changes to the names and boundaries of the historic counties happened in 1974 as a result of the 1972 Local Government Act. These are noted in the table below.
  • Shire or not? A county name has the suffix "-shire" if the county is named after the Historic County town (which may be different to the modern administrative centre). These old county town names are usually obvious in the county name and are given in the table below
County Name (use this in WikiTree location fields)Notes - do not use the County Name abbreviations or variants in the location fieldsChapman Code: expand this to the full county name
Bedfordshire Named after the town of Bedford. Abbreviation is Beds. BDF
BerkshirePronounced 'Barkshire'. The exception to the rule about Shire names, Berkshire was named after a woody hill rather than a town, and the Ancient county name was Berceria. The county town was originally Abingdon, and from 1867 Reading. Abbreviation is Berks.BRK
BristolA City and County in its own right since 30 October 1373. Put "Bristol, England" in the location boxes from 1373 onward, before that it is Bristol, Gloucestershire. See here for more information about categorisation No code
BuckinghamshireNamed after the old county town of Buckingham. Abbreviation is Bucks. BKM
CambridgeshireNamed after the county town Cambridge. Abbreviated to Cambs. Ancient name is Cantabrigia from which we get Cantab for degrees awarded at Cambridge University. Neither style is used in Wikitree locations.CAM
CheshireNamed after the county town Chester. The ancient name was Cestria - this name is not used in Wikitree locations.CHS
CornwallAncient names are "West Wales" (Ancient "North Wales" is the modern country of Wales), Cornugallia, Cornubia and Kernow. None of these names are used in Wikitree locations.CON
County DurhamNote the use of County in the full name, the only County in England to do this. Use the full name rather than just "Durham". An ancient name is Dunelmensis Episcopatus (the Bishopric of Durham).DUR
CumberlandCumberland was abolished and became part of the newly created county of Cumbria in 1974CUL
DevonDevon is the official county name. Use this in the location fields. It is sometimes referred to as Devonshire (used as the name of a Dukedom and a Regimental name). Devonshire is not used in the location fields.DEV
DerbyshireNamed after the old county town Derby. (The modern county town is Matlock). Abbreviated to Derbys.DBY
DorsetDorset is the official county name. Use this in the location fields. Sometimes referred to as Dorsetshire,.DOR
EssexLiterally the Land of the East Saxons. The South-West part of the historic county was lost to the County of London and subsequently Greater London.ESS
GloucestershireNamed after the county town Gloucester. Pronounced 'Gloster'. Abbreviated to Gloucs.GLS
HampshireNamed after the town Southampton which historically was known as Hamptun. Abbreviated to Hants.
Sometimes referred to as Southamptonshire - this name is not used in Wikitree locations.
Hampshire included the Isle of Wight until it was made a ceremonial county in its own right in 1974.
HAM, IOW for Isle of Wight
HerefordshireNamed after the county town Hereford. Herefordshire was amalgamated with Worcestershire in 1974.
Re-established as a separate county in 1998.
HEF
HertfordshireNamed after the county town of Hertford. Pronounced 'Hartfordshire'. Abbreviated to Herts. HRT
HuntingdonshireNamed after the county town Huntingdon. Merged into Cambridgeshire in 1974. Abbreviated to Hunts.HUN
KentAncient name for Kent is Cantiu - this name is not used in Wikitree locations.KEN
LancashireNamed after the city of Lancaster. Abbreviated to Lancs.LAN
LeicestershireNamed after the town of Leicester. Pronounced Lestersheer. Abbreviated to Leics.LEI
LincolnshireNamed after the city of Lincoln. Abbreviated to Lincs.LIN
City of LondonThe City of London is a self-governing City in the North bank of the River Thames which still exists today. It has always been outside the County structure, and was not part of Middlesex which used to surround it.
Until 1889, any location referring to London was correctly the "City of London". There was no other version of London up until that time.
Put the full name City of London in the location field. ("City of London, England" before 1801, "City of London, England, United Kingdom" after 1801)
LDN
(County of) London
1889-1965
The County of London was created in 1889, made up of parts of Middlesex on the North of the Thames and Surrey and Kent on the South of the Thames.
This is a list of places which were transferred into the County of London
The County of London did not include the City of London.
For the locations transferred into the new County of London use "Place, London, England, United Kingdom".
(For example: "Islington, Middlesex, England, United Kingdom" became "Islington, London, England, United Kingdom" post 1889).
Locations in the City of London post-1889 remain "City of London, England, United Kingdom"
No Code
Greater London
1965 to date
In 1965, the County of London was expanded to become Greater London.
Greater London consists of the County of London, the rest of Middlesex, parts of Surrey, Essex, Hertfordshire and Kent.
This is a list of places now in Greater London
Greater London does not include the City of London.
For locations in Greater London, use "Place, Greater London, England, United Kingdom"
(For example "Barking, Essex, England, United Kingdom" became "Barking, Greater London, England, United Kingdom" post 1965).
Locations in the City of London post-1965 remain "City of London, England, United Kingdom"
No code
Middlesex
up to 1965
Literally the "Land of the Middle Saxons". This county used to encircle the City of London on the North of the Thames. It was gradually absorbed into the expanding London conurbation. Middlesex was abolished as an entity in 1965 with the creation of Greater London.MDX
NorfolkLiterally the "North Folk" of East AngliaNFK
Northamptonshire Named after the town of Northampton. Abbreviated to Northants. NTH
NorthumberlandLiterally the "Land North of the River Humber". NBL
NottinghamshireNamed after the town of Nottingham. Abbreviated to Notts. NTT
OxfordshireNamed after the city of Oxford. Abbreviated to Oxon. from the ancient name of Oxonium, Neither style used in Wikitree locations.OXF
RutlandThe smallest English county. Temporarily abolished as a county 1974-1997 during which time it was absorbed into Leicestershire.RUT
ShropshireA modern spelling and pronunciation of the Old English for Shrewsburyshire after the county town Shrewsbury. The county is known archaically as Salop - this name is not used in Wikitree locations.SAL
SomersetSomerset is the official county name, Use this in the location fields. Sometimes referred to as Somersetshire.SOM
StaffordshireNamed after the town of Stafford. Abbreviated to Staffs. Extensive reorganisation of its boundaries in 1974.STS
SuffolkLiterally the "South Folk" of East AngliaSFK
Surrey A large county south of the River Thames. It lost its historic northern area to both the County of London and Greater London.SRY
SussexDivided administratively into East Sussex and West Sussex in 1974. Use Sussex as the county name.SSX.
Also SXE (East Sussex) and SXW (West Sussex)
WarwickshireNamed after the town of Warwick. Pronounced "Worreck-sheer". Abbreviated to Warks.WAR
WestmorlandAbolished as a county in 1974 and absorbed into the newly created county of Cumbria. In 2023, it is due to be re-established but with different boundaries.WES
WiltshireNamed after the old county town of Wilton (the modern county town is Trowbridge). Abbreviated to Wilts. WIL
WorcestershireNamed after the old county town of Worcester. Pronounced "Wuster-sheer". Abbreviated to Worcs. In 1974 its was split into the new West Midlands county and the rest was amalgamated with Herefordshire.
It was re-established as a separate county in 1998.
The ancient name is Wigornia - this name is not used in Wikitree locations.
WOR
YorkshireNamed after the city of York. Historically divided into the North, East and West Ridings which were were abolished in 1974. (The Riding for a Yorkshire location is not used in the location field). The Roman name for the city of York was Eboracum - some old text refer to Yorkshire as the county of Eboracum, abbreviated to Ebor. (This name is not used in Wikitree locations.)YKS, also ERY (East Riding of Yorkshire), NRY (North Riding), WRY (West Riding)

Biography

  • The biography should be relevant to the profile, using inline sourcing to clearly identify the facts presented, and written in the third person.
  • Do not add speculation or your own personal views to the Biography. These can be written in a Research Notes section.
  • The biography should be written in chronological order unless this would upset the description of a certain passage of events in that person's life.
  • Use the Past tense (He married in 1940) rather than the Historical Present (He marries in 1940)
  • The use of the term "died" is preferred for end of life except if there is a more specific term for the cause of death (killed in action, drowned, executed, etc.)
  • Add interest to the narrative by adding first hand contemporary descriptions of actions or attributes (with sources), but do not speculate or embellish.
  • Use subheadings as waymarkers for important events.
  • If a lengthy passage of descriptive text is required (for example, the transcript of a Will) use a linked free space page for that text with a brief summary in the biography.
  • Blocks of text should not be copied to a profile from any websites. See the help pages for copying text and copying from Wikipedia.
  • If the information in the biography would be better presented in a list or table (static or sortable), Wikitree help pages provide examples of formatting lists and tables. If you already have the data in a spreadsheet there are numerous online Excel to wiki converters.

Citations

  • Citations (inline references) and Sources should be formatted according to Wikitree guidelines.
  • Inline citations are preferred. This is a guide to creating and using them.
  • A long string URL may be shortened by using: ["URL" space "text to display"]
    • for example [https://books.google.com.au/books?id=sXFwOjmRCoAC Flora of Suffolk] will appear as Flora of Suffolk.

Research Notes

  • A research note section may be used to explain issues encountered in the research process. This could include conflicting information, erroneous information published elsewhere and to document where information was not found.
  • Sign and date any research notes with four tildes ~~~~ so that others can see who added the notes and when.

Images

  • Do not add images if they will infringe copyright or you do not have permission to use them. Consult this page for image collections which have given Wikitree permission to use their images.
  • Websites such as Ancestry, FindMyPast and the National Archives, generally do not allow republishing of their images. Copyright laws for records in the UK are not the same as the US and other countries.
  • Images must be relevant to the person being profiled. A head and neck portrait of that person is preferred as the primary image.
  • Be sparing with background images in order to maximise accessibility for all members.
  • Images Check here for general Wikitree Help with images.

"See Also"

  • Works consulted and relevant to the profile but not used in inline referencing may be listed in a "See Also" section after the references tag. If "See Also" is used as a heading, it is capitalised, if part of the text, in sentence case. The works referenced should appear in alphabetical order by author/creator and in a bullet list.

Publications

  • If the profile subject is an author, you may wish to list either some or all of their publications. A suggested format is a bulleted list of the title giving author, title, year with inline references to the full bibliographic citation, and online access if available.

Resources

These pages contain links to resources that may be of help in researching an English profile:

  • Do not use unsourced family trees (Ancestry, Geni, My Heritage, Familysearch trees).
  • If the tree quotes a valid source, cite the valid source not the tree.
  • Find A Grave entries without a gravestone photo are not considered valid sources.

Stickers

Use sparingly, and only when relevant.

Use of the term Aristocracy (and therefore the sticker) on English profiles.

  • England (as a standalone country, as part of Great Britain, and as part of the United Kingdom) has Royalty and a Peerage.
  • Royalty comprises:
    • the Monarch and their spouse.
    • Princes: the male children and grandchildren of the reigning and past monarchs. Children of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales.
    • Princesses - legitimate daughters of a British Monarch, and legitimate male line granddaughters of a British Monarch.
    • Children of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales.
    • Spouse of a British Prince.
  • The Peerage comprises Dukes, Earls, Marquesses, Viscounts, Barons.
  • The sticker {{EuroAristo Sticker|place=British Isles}} should only be used on profiles of people with the titles listed above, and only if the Profile Manager wishes them to be on the profile.
  • Baronets are not part of the Peerage. The Aristocracy sticker should not be used on these profiles.
  • Life Peerages (created after 1958) are political appointments. The Aristocracy sticker should not be used on these profiles.
  • The sticker should not be used for knights and local dignitaries.

Examples of Profiles

The following profiles may be useful as a guide to developing a profile.
Pre1500
Geoffrey Chaucer
John Elrington
Dick Whittington,
16 Century
Margaret (More) Roper
John Dudley
17 Century
Samuel Pepys
Christopher Wren
18 Century
John Constable
Thomas Elrington
Mary Wollstonecraft
19 Century
Charles Darwin
Virginia Woolf
JRR Tolkien
20 Century
Dorothy L Sayers

Previous Revisions

  • May 2024: church names not in marriage locations
  • March 2024: Locations: Great Britain and United Kingdom
  • December 2023: Major revision of the Locations section including the introduction of the use of the County of London and Greater London.
  • November 2023: clarification of the use Sir, and of Dame and Lady in the prefix field as the wife of a Knight.
  • June 2023: link to the use of the surname fields with "alias" surnames.
  • June 2023: Clarification re. use of images and copyright.
  • May 2023: Use of Ridings (Yorkshire) in the location fields.
  • May 2023: Clarification of deaths at sea.
  • March 2023: Clarification of use of post-1837 Registration Districts in the location fields
  • October 2022: Added Bristol to County list, added Chapman Codes for information.
  • October 2022: Clarification of the changes to London over time (boundaries and administration).
  • August 2022: Clarification of the use of the Name Fields - not for locations, occupations or personal coding systems
  • May 2022: sections added on the use of the Aristocracy sticker, and on the use of Great Britain in location fields.

Sources

  1. https://debretts.com/peerage/the-knightage/
  2. 2.0 2.1 Knight: Title and forms of address from Debrett's Etiquette online Archived version on Internet archive from 16 March 2015 Accessed 24 October 2021
  3. Union with England Act (1707) legislation.gov.uk Accessed 28 May 2024
  4. Act of Union Ireland) 1800 legislation.gov.uk Accessed 28 May 2024
  5. UKBMD Registration Districts index page https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/index.html
  6. Wikipedia contributors, "Chapman code," Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chapman_code&oldid=1083967243 (accessed October 29, 2022).




Collaboration


Comments: 52

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Some concerns about wording:
  • "Great Britain did not become an entity until 1707, and from 1801, it was superseded by the United Kingdom." Great Britain is primarily a geographical term and so as an ENTITY it still exists and it existed before 1701. (Big Britain contrasts with Little Britain, Brittany, in France.) Perhaps the word entity should be replaced by "state"? I would also suggest adding the words "The Kingdom of" at the beginning, because that is the name of the state. (It is also the name of the Wikipedia article for example.)
  • "The United Kingdom did not become an entity until 1801." This bit is not Wikitree policy but a statement about history. As a statement about history it is too strict, and could mislead people. As explained on the WP article "The websites of the Scottish Parliament, the BBC, and others, including the Historical Association, refer to the state created on 1 May 1707 as the United Kingdom of Great Britain.[12] Both the Acts and the Treaty describe the country as "One Kingdom" and a "United Kingdom", leading some publications to treat the state as the "United Kingdom".[13] The term United Kingdom was sometimes used informally during the 18th century to describe the state.[14]"
posted by Andrew Lancaster
edited by Andrew Lancaster
Thank you for this Andrew. We have been discussing this within the England Project over the last couple of weeks. The section "Locations" has now been reworked as "Locations and Location Fields." The Location Fields need a standard structure, the location can be written in the Biography section as the profile manager wishes it. I have added the sources from the two Acts of Union for the names of Great Britain and United Kingdom.

Jo, England Project Managed Profile Team Coordinator

posted by Jo Fitz-Henry
In regards to below Do those of us that are not from English speaking countries have to have a very high English standard to live up to the project standards? I don't believe non English speaking countries require the same for their profiles. We can only do our best.

Would it be too much to ask in the English Profile Standards, and subsequently as part of the OT, to have a standard in the 'Biography' section that profiles should be 'Written as a narrative or story using full sentences, paragraphs, and appropriate punctuation.' ? Just a thought...

posted by Jean (Tennant) Skar
I have a pre-1700 profile to add. I know where and when the man was married and I know where he lived and died. I know the names of the children who survived him because I have a copy of his Will. I can give an estimate of his date of birth but what I do not know is where he was born. It could have been in England but I suspect it was not. Should I enter his birth location simply as "Unknown" ?
posted by Andrew Oliver
"Unknown" in the location field will generate a database error. In these circumstances, you should just leave the birth location field blank. Locations in the marriage and death fields will ensure that the profile appears in the appropriate county lists.
posted by Stephen Heathcote
Would you consider adding a statement about "de" in LNAB to these Name guidelines? The guidelines appear in the European Aristocrats guidelines, but I think it woud clarify to have it here also.
posted by Mary Morgan
Yorkshires three ridings were definitely in use when I was born in the North Riding of Yorkshire. It is the correct name of where I was born and grew up.
The county is Yorkshire. The Ridings are districts. The EP standard is Town/City, County, England
posted by Dave Welburn
Sorry, I have to disagree with that. When I was a little girl the ridings were run as three separate counties. The county town of the North Riding of Yorkshire was Northallerton. See Wikipaedia:

Northallerton (/nɔːrˈθælərtən/ nor-THAL-ər-tən) is a market town and civil parish near the River Wiske, North Yorkshire, England. It is an administrative centre of the North Yorkshire District and has served as the county town of the North Riding of Yorkshire from 1889–1974 and of North Yorkshire from 1974–2023.

Hi Judith, thanks for your response and interest in this topic.

Based on all the changes throughout the years we could have all sorts of ways of recording things. WikiTree and the England Project has agreed to keep things fairly simple. We do Village/Town, County, Country. The Location field produces lots of different errors if we are not consistent with that. Inserting the Ridings, or Hundreds, or Wapentakes, for that matter, into the Place Name fields over complicates things.

The Ridings did/do exist, but putting them into the Place Name field is not required and complicates things. Please just put it into the Biography (note to self: update my own profiles!).

Please feel free to write about the Ridings in the Bio. But in the Place Name field, adding the Riding is an unnecesarry complication.

Thanks for understanding,

Regards

Susie

posted by Susie (Potter) Officer
edited by Susie (Potter) Officer
So sorry, but I know where I was born. It was the North Riding of Yorkshire. Only one county had ridings. Thanks all the same but I won't be complying because It is not true.
If you choose to go in a different direction from most other people on WikiTree that is up to you. But, as someone who was born in the West Riding, and have lived all my life in Yorkshire, I am telling you that its a poor decision. The England Project does not arrive at these recomendations without consulting with members and and taking their opinions into account. We listen to what our members are saying. You should reconsider, and start to use the biography to document the Riding.

By the way, Lincolnshire had Ridings too. Lindsey in the north, itself traditionally divided into three ridings (North, South and West); Kesteven in the south-west; and. Holland in the south-east.

Joan

posted by Joan (Williams) Whitaker
edited by Joan (Williams) Whitaker
They may not all have called them 'Ridings' with a capital R, but there is evidence for similar administrative districts in Wales as well, where outlying locations were ridden around on a 'Circuit' by the administrators, on a set rotation, returning to the County Town periodically.

There was a similar situation with a number of the chapel organisations as well, who had smaller local 'circuits' that may be covered every week (or every Sunday anyway), and larger 'circuits' that would be covered by one or several separate preachers on rotation - although this is an entirely different matter, some of the 'circuits' - probably for geographic and demographic reasons - had significant overlap with the routes of the administrative and judiciary circuits. There is possibility some expatriot YorkshirePeoples referred to the religious 'circuits' as 'ridings', after arrival in south Wales coalfields, but not sure who really started it nor how common it was. But seeing your comment, I wondered if indeed it may have been a somewhat almost-universal arrangement, only 'formalised' more in Yorks/Lincs. DavidC

posted by David Church
As someone that was born in the West Riding, and still living in Yorkshire, I agree with Dave. The Ridings are districts, and for many years were used for administrative purposes, but they are not counties in their own right. We only need, Yorkshire as the county on the location on profiles. If people feel the the Riding should be identified then the information should go into the biography.
The names Westmorland and Cumberland are correct before 1974 and I have heard are soon to be brought back into use - hurray!
Should there not be a way of showing someone was, or is, a surgeon as "Mr" or "Miss" in the prefix field? In the context of medicine it is a higher title than "Dr".
Judith - an anaesthetist would disagree that it is higher! <grin> But we have started the process of revising some of the sections of the Profile Standards and the Prefix Field is one of them. The prefixes for surgeons is one of those things which has been suggested. As you are an England Project member, please come and join the conversation about this in the England Project Google Group. Jo
posted by Jo Fitz-Henry
Yes, my cousin Cedric was a consultant anaesthetist but I think surgeons were believed to be higher in the old days when titles were being thought up. My brother, a retired nurse, says it is not the surgeon that keeps you alive, it's the anaesthetist!
OK, I think saying a surgeon is "higher" is an incorrect way of saying what I meant although it does require additional qualifications after becoming a medical doctor. Of course, so do all the other medical specialities. However what I was trying to say is that the titles "Mr" and "Miss" mean something different in a medical context than simply being a general term of address and I think they have a meaning in that context. Some people in my family tree rightly have a title which shows their status (Doctor, Captain, King etc) and I think a surgeon's status could be shown in this way by using the terms being discussed.
Regarding Devon vs Devonshire, it might help if the wording in the 2nd column were changed slightly to make it even more clear that Devonshire is not to be used. As it is now, I am left wondering whether Devon should also not be used.
posted on England Project - Profile Standards (merged) by S (Hill) Willson
It is an intriguing question in Wales too, where some of the Counties that are rightly referrred to by only the name in English (not Gwynedd County), appear to be named 'county x' or 'county county x' in Welsh. Morganwg contains the 'wg' signifier for a district/county/administration of Glamorgan (sometimes known as Glamorganshire), but is often referred to as Sir Morganwg, which looks rather like saying 'Shire Morgan-County'. I think some of the discrepancy is to be able to use the County name with it's non-mutated initial capital letter, so we spell it right and can find it in the dictionery. Frecheiniog (Brecknock-shire) comes to mind.

Maybe instead of 'Devon', just put 'Mid-Wales' ? (Cornwall is West Wales, St Malo is in South Wales, and Cardiff and Swansea in North Wales - ah but the Men of the North are not from North Wales, they are from the Rheged and Northumbria. History gets fascinating but far too complicated ;-)

posted by David Church
Can someone please add a statement to the standard that Great Britain/GB should not be used on English profiles and that only the country should be captured on profiles prior to 1801? I still get people asking why it is being removed from profiles so capturing it here would be very useful as we could then point people to the standard to validate.

Thanks

posted on England Project - Profile Standards (merged) by Sarah Long
Strictly speaking, the name of the country between 1707 and 1801 was Great Britain, so if we're going to use United Kingdom from 1801 we should be using Great Britain for the century before then for consistency. Not that I'm advocating either - England alone should suffice for all time periods. As far as I am aware, United Kingdom was not commonly used as a name for the country until after Irish independence in 1922.
posted on England Project - Profile Standards (merged) by Stephen Heathcote
edited by Stephen Heathcote
Sorry the comment was not meant to restart the debate that has been had a few times on G2G. It was simply a reminder that the agreed practice still needs to be reflected in the standards on this page
posted on England Project - Profile Standards (merged) by Sarah Long
edited by Sarah Long