Fitz Randolph Genetic Adventures

Date: [unknown] [unknown]
Location: [unknown]
Surnames/tags: Fitz Randolph FitzRandolph Fitz-Randolph

Contents 1 Fitz Randolph One Name Study 1.1 Members helping to develop this page 1.2 Members who have contributed 2 Fitz Randolph Genetic Adventures 3 Autosomal DNA 4 Y-DNA 4.1 Initial Results from the Fitz Randolph Y-DNA Project 4.2 Introduction to our (Probable) Hollingworth Heritage

Fitz Randolph One Name Study

This is a research page of the Fitz Randolph One Name Study. Click this link to return to Study's Fitz Randolph Traditions home page.

Members helping to develop this page

Members who have contributed

Fitz Randolph Genetic Adventures

Wider use of DNA tests and analytical tools have opened up a whole new approach to exploring and learning more about how we fit in the Fitz Randolph family tree. The purpose of this page is to share ideas and information about what we have learned so far and how we might take advantage of these advances to deepen our collective knowledge of Fitz Randolph genealogy.

DNA offers us two main opportunities:

1. Using autosomal DNA to confirm our family lines and relationships within the past 400 years or so. We share our autosomal DNA with thousands and hundreds of thousands of others, including the bits of DNA passed down us from our Fitz Randolph ancestors. By analyzing the patterns of those matches and the location of shared DNA on our chromosomes, we can get clues about which ancestors may have passed it to us -- which is critical to confirming our documented family lineages.
2. Using Y-DNA to look back along the Fitz Randolph surname line from Fitz Randolph son to Fitz Randolph father to his Fitz Randolph father and so on. It can provide very convincing evidence for a family group that isn't sure whether they are Fitz Randolphs who link back to Edward Fitz Randolph. It is also being used to explore our deep history and can potentially be used to confirm our close relationship to the Normans who came to England beginning in 1066 AD.

Let's consider each of these in turn and explore what questions we might be able to answer using these tools.

Autosomal DNA

Two main questions can be tackled with autosomal DNA:

1. For Fitz Randolph descendants who know their family tree going back to Edward Fitz Randolph, are we sure that our documented lineage is correct? Are there links along those lines that we think might be weak or questionable? Or could there have been a 'non-paternal event' where the official father was not the real father?
2. For those who suspect they might be Fitz Randolph descendants but have not been able to document their links back to Edward or confirm their relationship to the Fitz Randolphs, can DNA be used to break down brick walls and point to the Fitz Randolph family branch or person we descend from, or disprove our suspicion? The power of this approach may be limited, however, if the family branch in question spun off from the Fitz Randolphs early on the 1600s or 1700s.

Please suggest other questions you think we could address.

If there is sufficient interest, we could collaborate more effectively to share our DNA information, target more tests if needed, and help make sense of what our collective DNA is telling us. Several amongst us have developed some experience with DNA analysis and can help coordinate our work. Within this effort, we can give priority to aiming our analysis on our (suspected) relatives who have a Fitz Randolph brick wall.

Please leave a comment here if you would be interested in participating in such an effort.

UPDATE:' A Fitz Randolph surname project was established at the FTDNA website in 2021. The project includes both Y-DNA test results from FTDNA (as the unique service providing such tests) and autosomal DNA that can be uploaded into the project from any DNA testing service. Anyone who suspects a link to the Fitz Randolph line is invited to participate. Please see: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/fitzrandolph/about

Y-DNA

We can use Y-DNA to again answer two main questions:

1. Can Y-DNA be used to break down brick walls and point to the Fitz Randolph family branch or person from whom we descend, or disprove our suspicion?

For those who suspect they might be Fitz Randolph descendants but have not been able to document their links back to Edward or confirm their relationship to the Fitz Randolphs, using Y-DNA provides even stronger evidence that a given family group descends from the Fitz Randolph line. As of mid-2021, twelve men who likely have direct-male line descent from Edward Fitz Randolph have completed Y-DNA testing, providing a clear genetic profile of the Fitz Randolph descendants. Five of these twelve men completed advanced Y-DNA testing, which has identified a specific mutation to the Fitz Randolph line (R-FGC41936). As a result, we have convincing evidence that at least one Randall family and Randolphs from Buncombe County, North Carolina are directly tied to Fitz Randolphs on their surname line.

As the costs of testing continue to come down, the addition of more testing across the various Fitz Randolph branches will give greater confidence in identifying how specific family groups trace back to Edward or beyond. It would also allow us to quickly identify how a male descendant who doesn't know if or how they relate to the Fitz Randolphs links to our tree. Fortunately, we aren't starting from scratch: there has already been a long effort to understand the full range of Randolphs in America through a Y-DNA project at FTDNA. With several Fitz Randolph-related participants involved, it has already confirmed that the Fitz Randolphs are a line very distinct from the other Randolphs. It has just recently spun off to establish its own specific Fitz Randolph Y-DNA project at FTDNA, which started with 8 but now has 14 Fitz Randolph direct male descendants who have tested; it provides a platform that we can continue to build from and expand.

2. Do we really trace back to the Lords of Middleham, the Normans and Charlemagne?

Using Y-DNA, we can begin to tackle some of these questions. In fact, there is some ongoing work along these lines, as Y-DNA test results provide a glimpse of families related to the Fitz Randolph line prior to Edward's arrival in the 1600s. We will be inviting the person leading that work to share what has been learned to date and next steps.

Please suggest other questions you think we could address.

And please leave a comment here if you would be interested in participating in the Y-DNA efforts.

Another suggestion from Tom Randolph:

3. Confirming Edward Fitz Randolph and providing a benchmark for evaluating our brickwall DNA work

As of now, we have a single, clearly documented descendant of Edward who has tested for Y-DNA (Tom Randolph, who descends from Edward's son Thomas). There are several other descendants who have tested to provide evidence of their links to the Fitz Randolph line because the paper trail is not complete and has holes in it (Myron Randall, a descendant of Edward's son Nathaniel, also has a documented line, but will need to confirm whether it is sufficiently strong for this purpose). Could we propose undertaking a targeted campaign to test at least one male descendant from each of Edward's five sons who does have a well established paper trail? This would allow us to (1) conclusively prove the role of Edward as progenitor of these lines; and (2) give us a better understanding of the signature mutations specific to each branch -- which could be extremely useful in confirming that a brickwall Y-DNA result belongs in the hypothesized Fitz Randolph branch or not. (To confirm, but it might also help (i) sharpen our understanding of how our Y-DNA evolved before Edward; and (ii) identify whether any of our brickwalls may be due to another Fitz Randolph coming to America after Edward.) We can begin by identifying any living male descendants recorded here in wikitree since they or the wikitree member who created their profile have already demonstrated an interest in our family history by doing so! Would this be a worthwhile first step for our testing efforts? Any thoughts?

4. Does our Y-DNA lead back to Rome?

The Fitz Randolph narrative has traditionally cited its introduction to England from Normandy with William the Conqueror, and before Normandy, the line originating in Norway. An interesting alternative is presented in a recent exchange in the Eupedia forum: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39896-Identifying-the-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-ancient-Roman-families-through-their-descendants/page4. It notes that: Eudons' children, the Eudonids, claimed descent from the Roman families Rutilius Rufus and Aurelius Cotta, specifically Rutilia, mother of Aurelia, mother of the dictator Gaius Julius Caesar. Eudon refers to Eudes (Bretagne) de Penthièvre. To be evaluated!

Initial Results from the Fitz Randolph Y-DNA Project

Testing of Y-DNA to date indicates that the Fitz Randolph line identifies with the R-FGC41936 Haplogroup, with a subgroup FGC41938 for a Randall line and another subgroup FGC43019 for the branch of Edward's son Thomas. FTDNA has begun (2022) providing the following report for this haplogroup:

Haplogroup R-FGC41936 represents a man who is estimated to have been born around 350 years ago, plus or minus 150 years. That corresponds to about 1700 CE with a 95% probability he was born between 1531 and 1813 CE. R-FGC41936's paternal lineage branched off from R-A8380 and the rest of mankind about 600 years ago, plus or minus 200 years. He is the most recent common ancestor of at least 4 lineages known as R-FGC41938 and R-FGC41936*. There are 6 DNA test-confirmed descendants, and they have specified that their direct paternal origins are from England and United States with 2 from unknown countries. As more people test, the history of this genetic lineage might be further refined.

January 2024 Update (as posted at the FTDNA Fitz Randolph Project website)

We have now reached a milestone of achieving our initial objective of having each of the branches of the five sons of Edward Fitz Randolph the Pilgrim represented by Y-DNA tests of at least one descendant. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this effort! We’re finally beginning to lay the foundation for validating our various lines and helping resolve some mysteries. Let us walk you through our interpretation of the results so far. These are summarized nicely in the Group Time Tree you can access from our project website at discover.familytreedna.com/groups/fitzrandolph/tree where you are given the choice of subgroups to select: click on the five sons’ branches. As you can see there, we are all included in the haplogroup R-FGC41936 – estimated to have been created in the early 1500s and which also matches one Hollingworth tester in the Hollingworth Y-DNA project. Then there are two subgroups identified: R-FGC43019 – estimated to have been created around 1600 and the other R-FGC41938 created more recently in the early 1900s. We have also made a chart showing our relationships that provides some context for these groupings. The chart shows how our testers trace back to one of the five sons of Edward. Note that for several of these, the evidence supporting their lineage – their ‘paper trail’ – is sometimes weak at spots, which are indicated by a circled question mark, so we are not fully confident that they are aligned to the correct ancestor line. The number of the tester’s FTDNA kit is then positioned in their corresponding haplogroup. We all fall within the R-M269 haplogroup, and the tests that are found in the white area are the ones that are not the full BigY test, but are the more limited versions for 37, 67 or 111 markers and do not (yet) indicate the specific haplogroup (though there is a chance that FTDNA may be reporting some of those this year). Next, within the R-M269 box is the light shaded box for the BigY tests indicated to be in the R-FGC41936 haplogroup, and then those falling into the darker shaded boxes for the two haplo-subgroups of R-FGC43019 and R-FGC41938. The first thing to note is that all the Fitz Randolph BigY testers fall within the general R-FGC41936 haplogroup or one of its subgroups. None of the other Randolphs in the broader Randolph Y-DNA project share this haplogroup – so it is reserved just for true Fitz Randolphs. But hold on, there is one Hollingworth tester from the Hollingworth Y-DNA project who also shares our Fitz Randolph haplogroup. This is further evidence of the finding revealed by Y-DNA testing that our Fitz Randolph lines were sired by a Hollingworth man in the late 1400s or early 1500s, and that he, his father or grandfather Hollingworth had the mutation in their Y-DNA that established our R-FGC41936 haplogroup as distinct from other Hollingworths. This means that from that Hollingworth sire our biological heritage no longer follows the Fitz Randolph line going back, but instead we become part of the Hollingworths of Mottram line. The second point of note is that therefore Edward Fitz Randolph and all of his descendants in America and elsewhere fall in this haplogroup. We don’t know yet if there might be any descendants of Edward’s siblings or cousins in England who might exist and would likely fall in this haplogroup, too. Our tentative conclusion is therefore that anyone who tests and does not fall in this haplogroup is not a Fitz Randolph descended from Edward. Third, Edward’s son Thomas had a new mutation in his Y-DNA that has been passed down to all of his descendants since it appears to have been shared by at least his two sons David and Jonathan, creating the R-FGC43019 haplo-subgroup. Finally, there has been a more recent mutation is the line that had adopted the name Randall who are thought to descend from Edward’s son Nathaniel. The only hitch is that there is one kit 995496 where there is a fairly good paper trail also tracing back to Nathaniel, but that falls in the R-FGC43019 haplo-subgroup and so shares the mutation from Edward’s son Thomas. But it doesn’t make sense that the same mutation would be shared by just one sub-line of Nathaniel’s. Otherwise it would mean that Edward had passed that mutation through both sons Nathaniel and Thomas, but not through the other sons or Nathaniel’s other lines. So we have one result that doesn’t fit. We’ll need to look again very carefully at the paper trail for kit 995496 and otherwise wait for more results to try to figure out this apparent inconsistency. Otherwise, the results unfortunately do not give us a sufficient base yet for evaluating the validity of the lineages that have gaps and questions. To get there, we’ll need more descendants testing. As that happens, we can expect more subgroups to begin being defined that will allow us to differentiate better the lines of the five sons – as we appear able to do now for Thomas’s – or for certain sub-branches under them. We therefore propose to set our new objective to have at least two male-line Fitz Randolph descendants tested from each line, and preferably to identify descendants with strong paper trails who we can be confident will serve as a reference for comparison with results from descendants with shakier trees. If you are actively interested in genealogy, we would very much appreciate your help in identifying candidates for testing who meet this criterion. And any financial contributions made at our project site to help support this testing would be much appreciated! Would appreciate your feedback!

Introduction to our (Probable) Hollingworth Heritage

Our inherited Fitz Randolph heritage linking us back to William the Conqueror’s family has come into question over the past decade as Y-DNA testing has generated new information about our origins. Research led by Roger Wood has looked into the close links of our Fitz Randolph Y-DNA to the Hollingworth and associated families. The current theory is that one of our Fitz Randolph ancestors in the 1500s was actually sired by a Hollingworth. Attention has focused on the wife of one Fitz Randolph who knew a Hollingworth, bequeathing him a pig in her will in 1574: this was Jane Langton FitzRandolph of Langton Hall, Kirkby-in-Ashfield, Nottinghamshire, the great grandmother of the Edward Fitz Randolph who came to America in 1630. What is known about our newly revealed Hollingworth heritage? If you visit the Hollingsworth Y-DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Hollingsworth?iframe=yresults); you will find Fitz Randolph testers falling under the Hollingworth Cheshire group. The man who was bequeathed the pig by Jane Langton FitzRandolph, Richard Hollingworth of Kirkby-in-Ashfield, was a member of this branch. It is thought that Hollingworths became established in Nottinghamshire based on John de Holyngworth, Gent of Staveley who served as clerk of Sir Henry Pierrepont of Nottinghamshire in the mid 1400s and who was involved in sales of Sir Henry Pierrepont’s sales of land there. John was living in the ‘Old’ Hall, Mottram, Cheshire (near modern day Manchester) in 1433. Old Hall still exists and is a private residence. John was reportedly descended from John, the Lord of Greater Holynworth who died in the mid 1300s and lived in Hollingworth Hall, which was not far from Old Hall. However, Y-DNA has shown the Hollingworths of Hollingworth Hall to be a different family from those of Old Hall. (And note that there is a third Hollingworth branch from the same area with yet different Y-DNA.) There was likely a marital connection between the two families because during the reign of Richard II in the 1390s, they shared the same heraldry (e.g. coat of arms, crest, etc.). It was during this time that our likely ancestor, Hugh Hollingworth of Old Hall was made a Royal bodyguard of King Richard II. What appears important to understand is that, as in the case of many family names in this area of the country, several different families became known as Hollingworth over the centuries because of their tenure at some point on Hollingworth land. This helps to explain the apparent relationship we have with Davenports, Eatons and Ropers from that area. It also means that while our heritage now appears grafted onto that of the Hollingworths, it is not clear how far back that heritage goes before it jumps to another tree! One theory has the Mottram Old Hall Hollingworths descending from Eaton, Boydel or Pulford lines tracing back to the French Norman family of Fitz Tezzon of Grappernhall and their progenitor Osborne. If this holds up, then we have not totally lost our Norman heritage! The Hollingworth Project is working hard to learn more about the origins of their different lines. Acknowledgement: A synthesis of information kindly provided by the very knowledgeable Simon Hollingworth of the Hollingworth Project.