Haplogroup DF5 - Bronze Age Celtic Britons

Date: [unknown] [unknown]
Location: [unknown]

Profile manager: Robert Moore

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Note that while it is the objective of the BY3368 study to follow DF5>FGC3899>ZZ32, a close look at the DF5>RC6 branch might be worthwhile. Names in this cluster include Y DNA test takers claiming ancestors in Ireland, to include (though not limited to these) the counties of Westmeath, Roscommon, Kerry, and Galway.

Also worth noting are two y DNA test results that might reflect the migration of Celtic Britons, back to the European mainland (specifically, Armorica and Gallaecia)... a descendant of Pierre Loyen (b. ca. 1600, in France) who tested to DF5>FGC3899, and a descendant of Jose Torres (b. 1906, Mexico), who tested to DF5.

The following haplotree details the terminal haplogroups of Y DNA test takers claiming ancestors from Devon, Cornwall, Somerset, and Dorset - the area of the Dumnonii... Ayrshire, Dunbartonshire, Lanarkshire, Glasgow, and Renfrewshire - the area of the Damnonii... and Dumfriesshire and Galloway (need to add Kirkudbrightshire) - the area of the Selgovae (will add Wigtonshire - area of the Novantae, at a later time).

Please note: Some portions of the haplotree have been abbreviated (indicated by ">"), in order to fit computer screens. This is best viewed on a computer screen and not on a handheld device.

L21
- DF63 - Cornwall
  - CTS6919
    - A92
      - Z16506>>>>BY31787 - Dunbartonshire
  - BY592
    - Z16245
      - Z16246>>BY2583 - Glasgow
        FGC36456
        FGC36423
        BY7782>>BY7774 - Devon
- DF13
  - BY60223 - Ayrshire
  - Z39589
    - DF49
      - BY2606
        BY2628 - Glasgow
      - ZP20
        FGC11175
        ZP21
        FGC11207
        ZZ33_1>>>>BY23988 - Lanarkshire
      - Z2980
        Z2976
        DF23
        Z2961
        FGC6540>>FGC30384 - Dumfries
        Z2956
        Z2965
        M222 - Ayrshire/Renfrewshire/Dumfries
        Y2605
        FGC4077 - Glasgow
        BY125109
        BY186561 - Lanarkshire
        
        S658
        DF104
        DF105 - Lanarkshire
        FGC4133
        FT91606
        FGC4134
        FGC4125 - Dumfries
        
        DF85
        FGC71316
        FT191128
        FGC35551
        FGC355555
        FGC35553 - Devon
        
        S673>>>>>>>BY21207 - Lanarkshire
    - Z251
      - Z16943
        FGC34554
        Z16944
        Z16946
        L555
        Z16932
        FGC13746
        FGC34569
        BY174652 - Dumfries
      - BY68688
        BY100572 - Dumfries
    - S1026
      - S1011
        A1103
        A1101
        A1078
        BY60364
        FT13195
        FT12424 - Ayrshire
    - BY3925
      - A9508 - Ayrshire
    - L1335
      - L1065
        FGC10125
        FGC10116
        FGC10124
        FGC10122
        FGC10120
        FT138216
        FT167643 - Glasgow
        
        BY23332
        A11437 - Glasgow
        
        Z16325
        S744
        BY23334
        BY23351 - Lanarkshire
        
        S691 - Ayrshire
        S695
        S27834
        S690
        BY108397 - Lanarkshire
        
        A5299 - Lanarkshire
        
        BY3146
        A850
        BY11749
        Y22159
        Y22337
        Y22339
        BY39956
        BY39953
        BY87720 - Dunbartonshire
        
        S764
        FGC28985
        FGC28995
        FGC83404
        FGC28994
        FGC28989
        BY190073 - Dumfries
        
        BY184054 - Ayrshire
    - BY34749
      - BY63633 - Cornwall
    - FT262970
      - FGC20101 - Dorset
    - FGC35996
      - BY9003
        FT13896
        BY24287
        FT125055
        FT124928 - Somerset
      - BY23382 - Devon
    - S16264
      - Z16861
        L679
        F110 - Devon
    - FGC13780
      - FGC33423 - Devon & Cornwall
    - S1051 - Somerset
      - FGC17906
        FGC19449
        FGC59359
        BY42375 - Somerset
      - FGC14901
        FGC64558
        FT62338 - Devon
        FT98607
        Y24525
        Y24879 - Devon
    - S3666 - Devon
      - BY54624
        BY71093
        BY182882 - Dumfries
      - BY3923
        Y30767 - Devon
    - DF41 - Somerset/Glasgow
      - FGC13023
        FGC65269 - Cornwall
      - FGC5572
        MC21 - Devon
        FGC36628
        FGC36627
        FGC36630 - Devon
  - FGC5494
    - FGC5561
      - FGC19329
        FGC19335
        A2190
        FT45362 - Devon & Cornwall
      - FGC19916
        M954 - Devon & Cornwall
      - S7958
        FGC7448
        FGC5496
        FGC5512
        FGC5549
        FGC5560
        FGC5511
        A1487
        FT111213 - Somerset
        
        BY203692
        FT234895 - Devon
  - FGC11134 - Devon
    - A353
      - Z16250
        A114
        CTS4466
        S1115
        A212
        A7699
        BY66248 - Galloway
    - ZZ44
      - ZZ46
        FGC11293 - Cornwall
        BY64238
        BY65670 - Devon
  - L513 - Somerset
    - S6365
      - BY16
        CTS3087
        FGC13411
        BY160873
        BY161916 - Devon
    - S5668
      - A7 - Devon
        Z17623
        S5979
        S5982
        FGC30224
        Z17817
        BY615
        FGC36506 - Lanarkshire
        
        A3
        A8
        Z17299
        Z17296 - Dumfries
        FGC32661
        FGC21249 - Dumfries
        
        BY11239 - Glasgow
        Z18059
        Z18060
        FT225337 - Dunbartonshire
        
        L193.1 - Ayrshire/Glasgow
      - BY96813
        BY201501 - Ayrshire
  - ZZ10
    - FGC42672
      - MC14
        BY246
        BY249
        BY248 - Ayrshire
    - CTS10201
      - CTS3386
        S19268
        FGC40142 - Dunbartonshire
        
        FT14391
        FT44417
        FT82706 - Cornwall
    - Z16423
      - Z255
        S169.1
        Z16429
        BY519
        ZZ7
        BY100966
        BY17758
        FT76359 - Glasgow
        
        Z16434
        FT10588
        BY17875
        BY17850
        BY56157 - Dumfries
        
        BY17735
        BY17864 - Devon
    - Z253 - Cornwall/Dumfries
    - FGC3268
      - ZZ6
        FGC3220
        FGC3222
        Z17692 - Ayrshire
        
        BY43439
        L554
        BY14481
        BY23489
        BY24054
        BY23384
        BY23399 - Dorset
      - FT31956
        BY23615
        BY203110
        BY210679 - Devon
      - S844
        A22
        S856
        S845
        S846
        FGC20559
        FGC8561
        AMM336
        Z17685
        FGC20562
        S871
        B360
        S869
        BY15268 - Devon
      - Z2534 - Cornwall
        ZZ5
        BY4087
        BY4064
        BY4070 - Glasgow
        
        A16
        BY10
        A14
        A277
        BY4080
        BY13089
        FT55474
        BY43275
        Y100802
        BY49931
        Y96072 -Cornwall
        
        BY25447
        BY13693
        BY13686
        BY13692
        BY19674 - Cornwall
        
        Z2185
        A7037
        BY4297
        BY11911
        S885
        BY11903 - Devon
        
        BY4331
        Z2186
        L1066
        BY3946
        BY591 - Cornwall
        
        BY66872 - Cornwall
        CTS11831
        CTS9881
        Z18123
        CTS9251
        CTS4296
        FGC32678
        FT114790
        CTS114 - Devon
  - DF21
    - S5488
      - Z16294
        BY11118
        BY4001
        FT147114 - Cornwall
      - BY518
        S7200
        S6003
        Z16543
        S7190
        S6000
        FGC43483
        FGC43477 - Glasgow
        FGC43478
        FGC43490
        FGC43480 - Glasgow
        
        FGC33060
        FGC33047
        FGC33039
        BY46953
        BY103043 - Devon
    - Z30233
      - CTS8704
        S280
        DF25
        Y172372 - Devon
        DF5
        FGC3899
        ZZ32
        CTS3655
        BY21628
        BY21650 - Somerset
        
        Z16539
        Z16540
        BY2724
        BY2695 - Somerset
        BY3363
        BY3989 - Devon
        
        CTS8035
        CTS1970 - Glasgow
        BY164001 - Ayrshire
        
        L627
        BY3364
        BY3368
        BY111495
        BY177240
        Y12895
        
        BY12309
        BY12311
        
        BY188117
        BY50703
        BY141776
        
        FGC15791
        FT176771
        BY132823
        
        FT88521
        FT371179 - Ayrshire
        Y133164 - Ayrshire
        Y133180 - Ayrshire
        
        FT229475
        FT230969
        
        FT38883
        BY194967
        FT48485 - Ayrshire
        FT226729
        
        FT63645
        FT251815 - Ayrshire

Haplogroup DF5 Age Estimation

Haplogroup R-DF5 represents a man who is estimated to have been born around 3,100 years ago, plus or minus 500 years. That corresponds to about 1100 BCE with a 95% probability he was born between 1600 BCE and 600 BCE.
Per Alex Williamson's Big Tree (R-P312 Y DNA descendant lines) age estimations (based on the method of Dr. Iain McDonald), the median age of this block is 3439.57 YBP (1490 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2013 BC to 1015 BC.

Phylogenetic Parent of DF5

DF25

Phylogenetic Children of DF5

FGC3899

Collaboration

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Comments: 2

Leave a message for others who see this profile.

Rory Cain RFD JP

Interesting approach. Might be subject to claims of "cherry-picking", pre-selecting areas associated with the Damnonii and Dumnonii. But I have no problem with that, as one has to start somewhere, and both areas have produced DF21 and DF5 results. The RC6 branch referred to, in addition to including Irish surnames from Galway, Clare, Westmeath, etc., associated with the Ui Fiachra Aidhne, Dealbhna and other stock submerged beneath R-M222, also includes a Smith Yorkshire cluster and a Fish Leicestershire cluster. Bearers of these two English names have held aloof from the R-DF21 Project, seeing it as Irish and Scots. Theor existence opens the possibility of a third migration route in addition to the Cornwall to Ireland and Scotland to Ireland routes. That is, a possible route through north Wales or from the Lancashire coast.

posted Feb 18, 2023 by Rory Cain RFD JP

Robert Moore II

I noted in the above text that this was "the area of the Damnonii"... emphasis on "area". I did not make the claim that a single haplotree defined the "collective" Damnonii/Damnii. If you look downstream, I present the thought that L627 may have been a branch of the Dumnonii, and that branch... I think... may have been associated with the area near "Vanduara".

I'm of the mind that Bronze Age and Iron Age Celtic Briton tribes were respectively defined as "collectives" based more on the god in which they put their faith than by a single line of blood family. The quote from the Tuatha Dé Danann seems to mesh with this... "tongu do dia tongas mo thuath"... which means, "I swear by the god by whom my tribe swears."

Have I found the other branches of the Damnii through Y? I have not... but I'm looking.

Further, I'm not the only one who has suggested that there may be an etymological tie between the Dumnonii of SW England with the Damnonii/Damnii of SW Scotland and the Fir Domnann of Ireland. Not exactly cherry-picking, but rooted in something a little more tangible, plus the CTS3655>Z16539 has left a rather long line of breadcrumbs, from Alsace, to Devon, Wales, SW Scotland (Britton/Galbreath... possibly also Damnonii, given the locale, just to the north of the BY3364 cluster), Fife, and Aberdeenshire, seemingly leaving us a little more to consider.

posted Feb 22, 2023 by Robert Moore II
edited Feb 22, 2023 by Robert Moore II