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John Lee DNA Discussions

Privacy Level: Open (White)
Date: [unknown] [unknown]
Location: [unknown]
Surnames/tags: Lee-1662_DNA Sourcerers DNA
This page has been accessed 6,235 times.
In the interest of having a bio that is easier to read, all DNA discussions will be moved to this freespace page for follow up.

Broken Link to research [1]

John Lee Esq Profile Page

Contents

New Research

DNA Connections to John Lee Esq.

It may be possible to confirm family relationships with John by comparing test results with other carriers of his Y-chromosome or his mother's mitochondrial DNA. Y-chromosome DNA test-takers in his direct paternal line on WikiTree:
Tom Lee: Family Tree DNA Y-DNA Test 67 markers, haplogroup R-U106, FTDNA kit #366549
Hugh Lee: Family Tree DNA Y-DNA Test 111 markers, haplogroup R-DF27, FTDNA kit #448163

It is likely that these autosomal DNA test-takers will share DNA with John:

  1. Elizabeth Howie: 23andMe, GEDmatch M235402
  2. Mona Johnson: 23andMe, GEDmatch wc8749747
  3. Harold Johnson: 23andMe
  4. Larry Jackson: 23andMe
  5. Rod Pennington: 23andMe + AncestryDNA, Ancestry member rodpenn2012
  6. Susan (Wildsmith) Dowdey: 23andMe + AncestryDNA, GEDmatch A162988
  7. Marianne Carter Wall: AncestryDNA, Ancestry member Mcarterwall
  8. Earl Willey: AncestryDNA, Ancestry member earl_willey93
  9. Loretta (Leger) Corbin: AncestryDNA, GEDmatch A124004, Ancestry member loretta_corbin + Family Tree DNA Family Finder, FTDNA kit #B62233
  10. Melinda Hickerson: AncestryDNA, GEDmatch A955589, Ancestry member MelindaHickerson
  11. Gayle McDowell: AncestryDNA
  12. Deborah (Pruett) Crain: AncestryDNA, GEDmatch A101494, Ancestry member DKC
  13. Tommie Atwood: AncestryDNA, GEDmatch A744418, Ancestry member TommieJAtwood
  14. Kelvin Murray: AncestryDNA, Ancestry member gmurray54
  15. Nicki Masterson: AncestryDNA, GEDmatch A256937, Ancestry member nickimasterson16
  16. Rosa (Hudson) Hitchcock: AncestryDNA, Ancestry member 123rhg123
  17. Suzanne (Paulkovich) Hye: AncestryDNA, Ancestry member Suzanne_Hye
  18. Virginia B Lee: AncestryDNA, GEDmatch A054825, Ancestry member virginiawilson79
  19. Hugh Lee: AncestryDNA, GEDmatch A558398, Ancestry member blakesims2001
  20. Fay (Hill) Adkins: AncestryDNA, GEDmatch A372074, Ancestry member fadkins2449
  21. Linda (Smith) Friedlander: AncestryDNA, Ancestry member mazel18
  22. Del Leger: Family Tree DNA Family Finder, GEDmatch T490396, FTDNA kit #699514
  23. Charles Patterson: MyHeritage DNA

Descendant Research

DNA Connections to John Lee Esq. DNA Trail and Paper Trail from Edward G. Lee and participant TO84652 in the Lee Surname DNA Project: [2] It may be possible to confirm family relationships with John by comparing test results with other carriers of his Y-chromosome:

John Lee Esq. (1690 VA-c 1767 NC)
Thomas Lee (1729 NC-1816 Tenn)
Judge Needham Henry Lee Sr. (1770-1821)
William Carroll Lee (14 Jan 1796 in Hawkins County, Tennessee-1884) to:
Polk Dallas T. Lee (1844-1915) (https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/lee/19800/) (https://www.leedna.com/dnaresults.php?id=111 Participant TO84652)
Ingram Lee (2 Aug 1799 in Hawkins County, Tennessee-1852)
Edward Givens Lee (1840 St Clair, Alabama, USA-1888 Gadsden, Etowah, Alabama, USA)
Edward G. Lee (1880 AL-1946 Anniston, AL) Haplogroup R1b of John Lee Esquire (https://www.leedna.com/dnaresults.php?id=235)

DNA Evidence'

The Lee DNA Genealogy Project[3] has just completed Y-chromosome testing of a Lee male descendant of Capt. Thomas Lee, born circa 1730, NC?, died 1816, Hawkins Co, TN. The Lee male DNA donor for this testing descends from a proven lineage as follows ...

  1. Thomas Lee (AKA Capt. Thomas Lee) b: c1730 NC?, d: 1816 Hawkins Co, TN, m: c1773 Johnston Co, NC? to Mary Rains (Thomas may have had two previous marriages)
  2. Needham Lee, Sr., b: 04 Mar 1770, Johnston Co, NC, d: aft.02 Apr 1821 Shelby Co, AL, m: 02 Jun 1795 Hawkins Co, TN to Susan Bailey
  3. William Carroll Lee, b: 12 Jan 1796? Hawkins Co, TN, d: 06 Apr 1884 Beason Cove, Etowah, AL, m: 27 Oct 1831 Shelby Co, AL to Dorcas Littlefield (William probably married three times with Dorcas being the mother of next generation)
  4. Polk Dallas T. Lee, b: 02 Mar 1844, d: 19 Jun 1915, m: 1866 Emma Jane Winn (grandfather of participant)
  5. Father of Participant
  6. DNA Participant #T084652

The above Lee lineage is presented in this posting with the concurrence of the project’s participant #T084652 and is privatized for the last 3 generations. Results of this Lee male’s (T084652) Y-chromosome DNA testing indicate a reasonably close kinship to other previously tested Lee males in a kinship group associated with the John Lee, Sr., Esquire, lineage.

The percentage matches are as follows for descendants of John LEE ...
- T010175 (97.7%) b: c1695 d: c1767 NC (Esq.) - Robert
- T059868 (97.7%) b: c1786 NC d: 1866 Lawrence Co, AL - AL
- T057745 (93.1%) b: c1695 d: c1767 NC (Esq.) - Edward#1
- T058424 (93.1%) b: c1695 d: c1767 NC (Esq.) - Edward#2
- T060447 (93.1%) b: c1786 NC d: 1866 Lawrence Co, AL - WHL
- T038702 (90.7% b: c1695 d: c1767 NC (Esq.) - JohnJr-1

These results lend strong scientific support to the paper trail lineage reported in a recent Lee Gen Forum posting (#19780) by Lee researcher Rebecca Owens. In Mrs. Owens' posting the father of Capt. Thomas Lee is shown to be John Lee, Sr., Esquire.

Four of the six project participants described above are also proven back to John Lee, Sr., Esquire. The other two of the six are not yet proven via paper trail genealogy to descend from John Lee, Sr., Esquire, although strong indications are that this is the case. “Altered” Bible records have been circulated for the past hundred years or so showing the Capt. Thomas Lee lineage as a branch off the famous Lees of VA.

The following Y-chromosome DNA results comparisons (match percentages) are presented as a comparison of this project participant’s (T084652) Y-chromosome results to those of three proven Lee male descendants of the famous Lees of VA previously tested ...

- T026356 (23.3%) desc. Charles Carter Lee (b: 1798 Stratford, VA d: 1871 VA
- T058960 (21%) desc. Richard Lee (immig.) -> Hancock b: 1653
- T042100 (21%) desc. Richard Lee (immig.) -> Richard b: 1647

The percentage matches were manually calculated as the project website does not display any match data less than 70%.

These test results scientifically demonstrate that no common ancestor for the Capt. Thomas Lee descendant and the famous Lees of VA descendants existed in the past genealogical time span of significance.

As of 26 March 2007 the Lee DNA Genealogy Project[4] has 110 male participants tested by Relative Genetics with results posted on the project website.

Any Lee lineages interested in having one or more of their Lee males tested in the project should contact me via my E-mail address available on the Project Website[5].

See posting #18775 to this forum for some specifics on use of the project website. M. Clint Lee Project Coordinator Lee DNA Genealogy Project[6] Hosted by Relative Genetics

1. (JLN) John Lee of Nansemond, Virginia. YDNA Haplogroup I1a [2][3]
2. (JLX) John Lee Esq, YDNA Haplogroup R- 1b [4]
3. Gen. Robert E. Lee, Virginia Lees, YDNA Haplogroup I1a[5]

auDNA Matches

  1. Howie-281 John Lee, 6th great grandfather
  2. Phelps-3330 John Lee, 6th great grandfather

One John Lee or Two ?

This profile contains contradictory documentation and inconsistancies that may indicate there are two John Lees whose indentities have been confused and combined. The same evidence may also indicate that the two John Lees (JLX) and (JLN) are one and the same person. If the evidence that comes forth proves that to be the case, the DNA data issues would have to be resolved. More research is needed to clear this question.

1. (JLX) John Lee Esq., born (possibly Nansemond) Virginia abt 1695. YDNA Haplogroup R1b (R-M269) John Lee Haplogroup R1b
2. (JLN) John Lee, born abt 1690, Nansemond, Virginia, YDNA Haplogroup I1a (I-M253) John Lee Haplogroup I
One unsourced pedigree gives the following: Mary Bryan b 1705 Isle of Wight Co VA d 1780 Johnston Co NC, m1 John Lee b 11 Mar 1690 ?Johnston NC d 4 Dec 1766 Johnston NC, m2 William Raiford [6] This information is speculative and not supported by evidence.

Research Sources

The dissertation listed above does not discuss Richard Henry Lee, son of William Lee, father of John lee, Esquire. Rather, Richard Henry Lee of Virginia: A BIOGRAPHY, a dissertation by Mary Elizabeth Virginia, 1992, State University of New York, concerns Richard Henry Lee, Burgess, who was the son of Col. Richard Lee and Anne Constable. This fellow:
Richard Henry Lee
Sex: M
Birth: 1646 in Stratford, Essex, England [Stratford-upon-Avon in Warwickshire is a different place.]
Death: 12 Mar 1713 in Mt. Pleasant, Westmoreland Co., VA
Title: Sir
Event: Royal Title Unknown Knight of the Order of the Garter

Research Notes

DNA test results for Mary Bryan (wife of John Lee, Esq. ...

Mary Bryan [7] b: 1706 Isle of Wight County, Virginia d: 178.92 Johnson County, North Carolina
(daughter of William Bryan b: c1681 Isle of Wight County, Virginia and Alice McCloud)
m: John LEE, Esq, b: c1705 Richmond County, Virginia d: 04 Dec 1766 Johnston County, North Carolina
(son of Richard LEE b: c1678 Surry County, Virginia d: 10 Dec 1726 North Farnham Parish, Richmond County, Virginia and Mary Young) b: c1679)
grandson of William Lee and Alice Felton
great-grandson of Richard Lee and Anne Constable Owen,
ancestors of General Lighthorse Harry Lee and Gen Robert E. Lee [8]
Y-Chromosome DNA has proven John LEE, Esq. does not descend from, nor does he share a common LEE ancestor with Richard LEE, the immigrant progenitor of the famous LEEs of Virginia.No citation added Loretta Corbin's DNA matches both John Lee Esq and Richard Henry Lee.
Comments made by Jacqueli
The most important key to what I am trying to convey, because I am not a “DNA” expert, and citing second hand knowledge which I am limited, is that the Y-DNA Lee descendants are being compared to is not a Y-DNA sample from Col. Richard Lee’s DNA. This is the biggest UNKNOWN factor. So there is not an absolute that Col. Richard Lee, The Immigrant, progenitor of the Lees of Virginia lines Y-DNA Haplogroup is M-253, or M-269. All we know is that one descendant of Col. Richard Lee, that DNA sample is being stated to have the Y-DNA Haplogroup M-253, and the descendants from that group seem to have a match of M-253, while the other 80% of documented descendants are not. And all the facts are not known. What is a fact is that stating from these UNKNOWN factors that a descendant with a well-documented connection cannot be confirmed or denied a relationship to the ancestor, Col. Richard Lee, when in reality, the Y-DNA testing and comparisons present and past are not done against Col. Richard Lee’s DNA - which can be obtained. ALL else is assumption and opinion. This is not for a ‘wikitreer’ to decide, not for any genealogy, historical, DNA project, or Society entity to decide, because it would be a violation of individual rights, involves hundreds, if not thousands of individuals, as laws need to be adapted to today’s DNA and genealogy applications, especially here in the United States where personal rights are even more protected by our Constitution, and one’s individual genealogy, ancestry, and DNA, is a protected right and it is probably best for an entity higher than individuals on websites to decide, the courts being a possibility, how to proceed in the case of descendants of an historic figure as Col. Richard Lee with the denial or acceptance of documented lines since there seems to be a discrepancy – which may or may not be in the current descendant DNA sample which lines are being compared, and again that is all assumptive.
This URL gives quick explanation on Y-DNA mutations: [1]
I believe the person who added this place an excerpt from this source: 
Lee Lineage, Stories & History - Beginning with Count Rollo or Rolf the Viking Source: Genealogy of WILLIAM LEE 1 of England And of Virginia and His Descendants - By: Elizabeth Hoyle Rucker in 1945 Historical Sketch of the Lee Family of South Carolina, Virginia, England, France and Norway"
Lineage for LOV ancestry also mentioned in source: Genealogical history of the Lee family of Virginia and Maryland from A.D. 1300 to A.D. 1866 by Mead, Edward Campbell, 1837-1908, Publication date 1868 Topics Lee family, Lee, Richard, 1590?-1663?, genealogy Publisher New York : Richardson & Co. Collection allen_county; americana Digitizing sponsor Internet Archive Contributor Allen County Public Library Genealogy Center
It is a portion of the reported genealogy, that includes Lee ancestral descent to John Lee, Esquire in the book.
John Lee Esquire has living DNA Tester Rod Pennington[Rod Pennington Find 23andMe + AncestryDNA, Ancestry member rodpenn2012] John is the fifth great grandfather of Rod
John Lee Esquire has living DNA Tester Jacqueli Finley, [ AncestryDNA, GEDmatch A598504, Ancestry member JacqueliFinley + Family Tree DNA Family Finder, GEDmatch A598504, FTDNA kit #740080 + MyHeritage DNA, GEDmatch A598504]
Jacqueli Finley to Rod Pennington shared centigrams 48, longest block 19. Jacqueli Finley
WORK IN PROGRESS FTDNA DNA Matches:
1.Jacqueli Finley FTDNA# 740080 match to ancestors Col. Richard and Anne Constable with living DNA tester: Harold Aubrey Bouldin hbouldin@f*********.com R-M269 Y-DNA Haplogroup N/A mtDNA Haplogroup Harold Aubrey Bouldin Shared Segments: 12 Shared Centograms: 38 Longest Block: 14 X Match
2.Jacqueli Finley FTDNA Match #740080 match to ancestors Col. Richard and Anne Constable with living DNA tester: Bet Pan deb.sabba@g********.com Shared Segments: 53 Shared Centograms: 22 Longest Block: 9
3.Jacqueli Finley FTDNA Match #740080 match to ancestors William Lee and Alice Felton with living tester: Stephen Johnson earthstephen@*******.com Shared Segments: 10 Shared Centograms: 33 Longest Block:15
4.Jacqueli Finley FTDNA Match #740080 match to ancestors Richard Henry Lee and Mary Young with living tester: Stephen Johnson earthstephen@*********.com Shared Segments: 10 Shared Centograms: 33 Longest Block:15
5. Jacqueli Finley FTDNA Match #740080 match to ancestors John Lee Esquire and Mary Bryan with living tester: Stephen Johnson earthstephen@*******.com Shared Segments: 10 Shared Centograms: 33 Longest Block:15
6. Jacqueli Finley FTDNA Match #740080 match to ancestors John Lee, Esquire and Mary Bryan with living tester: William Randall McKee wmrmckee@*********.com R-L371 Y-DNA Haplogroup N/A mtDNA Haplogroup Shared Segments: 11 Shared Centograms: 29 Longest Block: 8
7. Jacqueli Finley FTDNA Match #740080 match to ancestors Col. Richard and Anne Constable with living DNA tester: Alice Pita alicepita@*****.com Shared Segments: 16 Shared Centograms: 42 Longest Block: 8 X-Match
8. Jacqueli Finley FTDNA Match #740080 match to ancestors William Lee and Alice Felton with living tester: Alice Pita alicepita@*****.com Shared Segments: 16 Shared Centograms: 42 Longest Block: 8 X-Match
9.Jacqueli Finley FTDNA Match #740080 match to ancestors Richard Henry Lee and Mary Young with living tester: Alice Pita alicepita@****.com Shared Segments: 16 Shared Centograms: 42 Longest Block: 8 X-Match Jacqueli Finley

Comments made by Loretta Corbin

All editing must have documented citations. Also, prior to editing this profile, make sure you have loaded your raw DNA to GedMatch and have added your GedMatch ID # to your Wiki Profile and that you are a direct descendant and have a genetic connection on the same chromosome. We are trying to untangle and correct all irrelevant information on this line. Thank you so much for cooperating.

Comments made by David Douglas:

It appears based on the facts presented in this profile that John Lee, Nansemond and John Lee Esq are being confused and combined into one profile, There is YDNA evidence that indicates John Lee, Nansemond (I-M253) and John Lee Esq (R-M269) are two separate persons. The data and biography indicates that this profilke is John Lee Esq. Before merging it should be determined which John Lee this profile is intended to be.
The YDNA evidence (comparison of genetic markers) for both John Lee of Nansemond (I-M253) and John Lee, Esq (R1b) both confirm there is no direct connection to Richard Lee, "The Immigrand" or the Lees of Virginia. The YDNA <edited 01/06/18>
One reason the Wikitree is the place to be is because it attracts some real talent in the way of experienced professional genealogists such as yourself. Your help and contributions to making this line as accurate as possible is very much welcomed.
David
I have read all the documentation contained in this profile, reviewed all the sources, read the comments and bulletin board posts and DNA evidence. To me it appears that this profile contains references and documentation of two different John Lees.
1. John Lee Esq born about 1695, said to be the son of Richard Lee. Married abt 1825 to a Mary Bryan. Projected YDNA Haplogroup R-M269. (JLX)
2. John Lee born about 1690, Nansemont, Virginia, parents unk, Married about 1825 to a Mary Bryan. Proposed YDNA Haplogroup I M-253. (JLN)
In reading the change history it appears that the John Lee Esq of this profile started out as John Lee (JLX) b 1695/96 at Richmond county, Virginia and soon after information for John Lee (JLN) b 1690 at Nansemond, Virginia was added to the profile. This appears to have created the questions regarding Richard Lee and whether he could be the parent of John Lee Esq. This is the result of conflicting YDNA data which is contained in the bio and presented as evidence. It is conflicting because data for two different men with different halplogroups are presented in the same biography.
The question is: Which John Lee is this profile supposed to represent (JLX) or (JLN) ? If the profile managers can agree on an answer to this much of the confusion can then be resolved.

6 March 2019

Rejected Parents of John Lee Esquire

DNA Connections for Richard Henry Lee, show he is not a possible father of John Lee Esq.

It may be possible to confirm or reject family relationships with Richard by comparing test results with other carriers of his Y-chromosome or his mother's mitochondrial DNA. Y-chromosome DNA test-takers in his direct paternal line on WikiTree: Tom Lee: Family Tree DNA Y-DNA Test 67 markers, haplogroup R-U106, FTDNA kit #366549 Hugh Lee: Family Tree DNA Y-DNA Test 111 markers, haplogroup R-DF27, FTDNA kit #448163

It is likely that these autosomal DNA test-takers will share DNA with Richard:

  1. Harold Johnson: 23andMe
  2. Larry Jackson: 23andMe
  3. Rod Pennington: 23andMe + AncestryDNA, Ancestry member rodpenn2012
  4. Loretta (Leger) Corbin: AncestryDNA, GEDmatch A124004, Ancestry member loretta_corbin + Family Tree DNA Family Finder, FTDNA kit #B62233
  5. Melinda Hickerson: AncestryDNA, GEDmatch A955589, Ancestry member MelindaHickerson
  6. Gayle McDowell: AncestryDNA
  7. Deborah (Pruett) Crain: AncestryDNA, GEDmatch A101494, Ancestry member DKC
  8. Kelvin Murray: AncestryDNA, Ancestry member gmurray54
  9. Del Leger: Family Tree DNA Family Finder, GEDmatch T490396, FTDNA kit #699514

NOTE

The comment regarding NPE in the line of male descent from Col. Richard Lee to Robert E. Lee is provably false, and has been removed; the Lee DNA project had tests from male-line descendants of Richard Lee II and of Hancock Lee, sons of Col, Richard Lee. These two (being related in the degree of seventh cousins, twice removed on their direct male line, according to their respective paper trails) were found to match on 42 out of 43 markers tested, indicating that the two testers share common ancestry within the genealogical timeframe, and to belong to haplogroup I1a (aka I-M253). See here.
Some have mistakenly linked John Lee, Esq., to Richard Lee b ca 1684, h/o Mary Young. Results posted with the Lee Surname DNA Research Project disprove this supposition as the two are not even in the same haplogroup -- John is R1b1a2 and Richard is I-M253.

Sources

  1. Rootsweb broken link
  2. Descendants of John Lee of Nansemond Co VA (JLN)
  3. [1]
  4. Lee Y-DNA Surname Project
  5. Re: Proof of Lineage to Gen. Robert E. Lee? By Dennis Lee February 08, 2010
  6. Bryan Pedigree and YDNA Project
  7. Ysearch.org/JZK2D
  8. www.multiwords.de/genealogy/bryan1.htm


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I run a Carter (R-M269) Y DNA project and I know at least four testers who learned that they are genetically part of the Carter family via Y-DNA testing and one Carter who learned he is genetically related to another family. All are part of a “non paternal event” (NPE). Besides the obvious reason, there are quite a few reasons why “new” Y-DNA ican be introduced into an established paternal line.

The Lees are genetically related to two different Carter families, namely the Thomas Carter (1630-1700) line which is part of the R-M269 STR haplogroup and the John Carter/Robert “King” Carter STR haplogroup, which, I believe, is the other one mentioned in this thread. Both Carter families crossed with each other plus the Lees, Randolphs and several other prominent Virginia families.

It’s difficult to sort out. Genealogy helps to map out the various paternal family branches forward to living male descendants. Then it’s down to figuring out which men to test so that the NPE can be mapped.

It should be noted that just because the Y-DNA does not appear to match what it’s supposed to, the living testers are still Lees, Carters, Randolphs, etc. And just because a living Lee tester’s Y-DNA is unexpected doesn’t mean that the two Lee ancestors aren’t related. The NPE could have happened at any time.

posted by Denise Carter
edited by Denise Carter