Michal-120 Pre-1500 Sandbox
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Biography
Robert de Harley married Alice de Puleston, daughter of Sir Roger de Puleston.[1] In 1255, Robert's father-in-law granted him half a mark of annual rent:
- A.D. 1255. Roger de Pyvelesdon grants to Robert de Harlegh in frank marriage with Alice his daughter half a mark annual rent which William de Donvill paid for a tenement held under the granter in the vill of Farlawe, co. Salop.[2][3]
Robert became Coroner of Shropshire (also known as Salop) in 1263 after his father's death.[1]
Research Notes
Background Information on the Manor of Harley
Roberts ancestors "were in possession of the Shropshire manor from which they took their name by 1221, and first sat for that county in 1300."[4]
Harley was recorded in the Domesday Book in 1086 as a manor with enough wood for 100 swine, and before 1066 the parish consisted of 4 manors: Harley, Domas, Rowley and Blakeway.[5]
Birth of Robert
The 1230 birth date of Robert Harley is a rough estimate calculated by subtracting an average age at marriage of 25 years from the known date of his marriage in 1255.[2] His birth year is given by various sources as being in the 1220s, but an authoritative source is needed. That he was born in Shropshire is assumed, based on his family being at the manor of Harley there by 1221.[4]
Parents
There are conflicting sources on the identity of Robert's father, who was either Richard de Harley or Nicholas de Harley (neither appear to have a WikiTree profile as of 20 September 2022).
Page 288 of the Archaeologia Cambrensis says that the father of Robert de Harley who married Alice, daughter of Puleston, was "Richard, who held a knight's fee in Harle in 1240, and became one of the coroners of Salop, and died in the office" - with the citation "Anderson's Salopia, p. 220".[2] The 1623 Visitation of Shropshire says that Robert de Harley was the son of Nicholas de Harley and Alice Randulph.[1]
As of September 2022, it is not possible to know who Robert's father was. There are reasons to prefer Richard over Nicholas. Searching for Nicholas yielded little information beyond what is found in The Visitation of Shropshire, and, this information connecting him as Robert's father was written about 400 years after Robert's birth. There are quite a few sources that make more sense if Robert's son Richard de Harley was named after a Grandfather with the same name.
- (Neither of these two Richards are identified in sources as Jr. or Sr., but simply for the purpose of clarity, the remainder of this profile will refer to them as such, Richard (Sr.) being the father of Robert, and Grandfather of Richard (Jr.)).
Coroners of Shropshire
- As noted above, page 288 of the Archaeologia Cambrensis says that the father of Robert de Harley who married Alice, daughter of Puleston, was Richard (Sr.). It also says that Robert succeeded his father[2] but is not clear as to what or when. "It is also said that Roger de Pyvelesdon had a daughter Alice by his wife Margaret Monthermer, and that she married Robert de Harley. This Robert succeeded his father 'Richard [Sr.], who held a knight's fee in Harle in 1240, and became one of the coroners of Salop, and died in the office' (Anderson's Salopia, p. 220). This is confirmed by the [1255] charter" to this Robert Harley from his father-in-law, quoted in the Biography, above ].[2] Robert's son, Richard (Jr.), then became Coroner of Shropshire by 1272.[6]
- The profile for his son Richard (Jr.) includes two sources that state that he (Richard (Jr.)) was coroner of Shropshire:
- In 56 Henry III [28 October 1271-27 October 1272][7] "Sir Richarde de Harley or Harleigh, was Coroner of Shropshire".[8]
- "Richard was Coroner of Shropshire in 1272".[8]
- In 1272, Richard (Jr.) was about 14 years old. I have been unable to find any age requirements for Coroner during this time period, though 14 seems young. More research is needed to clear this up as it is not based on a reliable source.
- It would appear that the position of coroner was filled in turn by: Sir Richard de Harley (Sr.), coroner from 1240 until around 1263, when he was succeeded by his son, Robert de Harley. He was in turn succeeded by Richard Harley (Jr.) around 1272.
Naming Conventions
- A final note on naming conventions during this time period. That Robert's son was named Richard (Jr.)[1] could be thought to support Richard Harley (Sr.) as Robert's father as naming the first son after the father’s father was common naming tradition.[9]
Children of Robert and Alice
- The Visitation of Shropshire (1623) lists son Richard (Jr.), who was Sheriff in 1301;[1] daughter Margaret is named in a pedigree for Hugh de Croft in a History of... Herefordshire.[10] Robert and Alice are said to have had two other children, though not by a reliable source.[11]
- Sybil Harley, born about 1256.[11] (uncertain)
- Sir Richard Harley, Knight[1] born about 1258, died before 1318[11]
- Margaret Harley, born about 1260,[11] married "John Parker of the Ford".[10]
- Malcolm Harley, born about 1262, died after 1296.[11] (uncertain)
A Possible Timeline for Richard Harley (Jr.)
- 1258- Birth[6]
- 1272- Becomes Coroner of Shropshire[8]
- 1285- Marriage to Burga de Willey[6]
- 1297- Summoned to attend the King[6]
- 1299- Summoned to march against the Scots[6]
- 1300- Chosen as knight for Shropshire[6]
- 1301- Sheriff of Shropshire[6]
- 1311- Custody of Lands of Knights Templer[6]
- 1320- Death of Richard (Jr.)[6][12][13]
The profile of Robert's son Richard (Jr.), as of 20 September 2022, has a birth year 1235. Part of the push to have Richard born in 1235 is the passage that states he (son Richard (Jr.)) held land in 1256[14] and in 1265 assisted Roger de Mortimer in rescuing Prince Edward.
Son Richard (Jr.)'s profile (Harley-839) has the rescue in 1255, citing an unverifiable source (as of 2 September 2022), but this date is incorrect. Prince Edward was captured during the Battle of Lewes 14 May 1264[15] which was part of the Second Barons War.[16]
Because of this, the profile attached as son Richard (Jr.) calculates that he was born in 1235, and that his parents (this Robert Harley and his wife Alice Puleston) had to have been married in 1234. Research notes on Richard (Jr.)'s profile (as of 2 September 2022) include the following:
- If indeed Richard was born in 1235 and was the oldest, place his parents' marriage in 1234. Estimate his mother's age at 18, thus born 1216, and his father's age at 21, thus born in 1213. (See Richard (Jr.)'s profile.)
The one date in that is the most secure in all of this is that Richard (Jr.)'s parents Robert and Alice were married in 1255.[1] That Robert and Alice's son was born in 1235 is thus not possible with his parents' marriage date, along with their current birth dates (born c1230 and c1235, respectively, according to their profiles as of 2 September 2022). It also reports son Richard (Jr.) as Sheriff in 1301.[1] Sheriffs are generally men in their prime – closer to 40 than 70 – which fits with his birth in 1258 birth rather than 1235.
Father of Robert Harley
The most logical solution is that two different Richards have been conflated. If we assume that Roger's son Richard (Jr.) was named after his grandfather, then the timeline makes more sense. The proposed timeline for Richard (Sr.), father of Robert:
- 1213- est. birth of Richard (Sr.) (not identified as such in any sources, used in this profile for clarification only)
- 1230- Birth of Robert
- 1240- Richard (Sr.) held a knight's fee in Harle
- 1255- Marriage of son Robert to Alice de Puleston
- 1256- First mention of Richard as elder brother of Malcolm ("Richard, elder brother of Malcolm Harley was appointed executor of Malcolm's estate."[8])
- 1258- Birth of Richard ( Jr.)
- 1263- Death of Richard (Sr.), Robert becomes Coroner of Shropshire[17]
- 1264-1267- 2nd Barons War[16]
- 1264- "Mortimer fought for the King against the rebel Simon de Montfort, 6th Earl of Leicester, and almost lost his life in 1264 at the Battle of Lewes fighting Montfort's men. <- open quote/no close quote & if quoted should really have a citation
- 1265- Richard (Sr.) helps rescue Prince Edward
- 1269- Death of Richard (Sr.) <- he died in 1263 already
- 1285- Richard (Jr.) marriage to Burga de Willey
- 1297- Richard (Jr.) summoned to be ready with horse and Arms to attend the King at London..., to go with him beyond the Seas. <- use of ellipses implies quoted matter but no quotes (or citation - I'm a little uncomfortable that the timeline facts aren't all footnoted
- 1299- Richard (Jr.) summoned to March against the Scots
- 1300- Richard (Jr.) chosen as knight for Shropshire
- 1301- Richard (Jr.) is Sheriff of Shropshire
- 1320- Death of Richard (Jr.)
What is clear is that even if we eventually find evidence that Robert's father was Nicholas de Harley, the most likely solution for the range of dates for Richard de Harley is still that there were two different Richards - one the son of Robert and the older, if not Robert's father, being an uncle or cousin.
Sources
- ↑ 1.0 1.1 1.2 1.3 1.4 1.5 1.6 1.7 Camden, William & Treswell, Robert. The visitation of Shropshire, taken in the year 1623. London, 1889. pp 213-214. Available at archive.org.
- ↑ 2.0 2.1 2.2 2.3 2.4 Lee, Rev. Canon M.H. "Emral and Its Occupants." Archaeologia Cambrensis, the Journal of the Cambrian Archaeological Association". Published by Cambrian Archaeological Association, London, 1888, pp 287-289. Available at Google Books. Citation following this quote: "Dugdale's MSS., vol. xxxix, fol. 80."
- ↑ "Frank-marriage", also called "maritagium or liberum maritagium was a form of conditional marriage-gift of land under English law, often from father to daughter." ~ Wikipedia: Frank-marriage (accessed 2 September 2022).
- ↑ 4.0 4.1 History of Parliament Online: Biography of Sir Robert Harley (1579-1656), by John. P. Ferris, accessed 2 September 2022.
- [25] R.W. Eyton, Antiqs. of Salop, vi. 232-3.
- [26] Collins, Peerage, iv. 44.
- ↑ Wikipedia contributors, "Harley, Shropshire," Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia, (accessed September 1, 2022).
- ↑ 6.0 6.1 6.2 6.3 6.4 6.5 6.6 6.7 6.8 Dianne Elizabeth, Dianne Elizabeth's Family History. Dianne Elizabeth's Database Updated Feb 25, 2014; Accessed October 14, 2017
- ↑ Some Notes on Medieval English Genealogy: Regnal Calendar, Reign of Henry III (accessed 20 September 2022).
- ↑ 8.0 8.1 8.2 8.3 Dianne Elizabeth, Dianne Elizabeth's Family History. Dianne Elizabeth's Database. Updated Feb 25, 2014; Accessed October 14, 2017 jhd Note - this link does not always work (came up as a dead link on one try on 2 September 2022; another try brought it up - at which point it was discovered that it has both Alice and her son Richard born in 1240 and lacks reliable sources.
- ↑ Fryxell, David A.. "[1]."Naming Traditions Across Multiple Cultures". Family Tree Magazine. Accessed 7 Sep 2022.
- ↑ 10.0 10.1 A History of the Mansions and Manors of Herefordshire, Charles John Robinson, p 81 (accessed 2 September 2022). Note: See the footnote on that page.
- ↑ 11.0 11.1 11.2 11.3 11.4 Sir Robert Harley, entry in "Our Royal, Titled, Noble, and Commoner Ancestors and Cousins" (website, compiled by Mr. Marlyn Lewis, Portland, OR; accessed 2 September 2022), citing Some Early English Pedigrees, by Vernon M. Norr (Private Printing. Arlington, Virginia), p. 77. Copy available at FamilySearch Library. TITLE NO 243427. Note: Lewis's database is not considered a reliable source.(see this pre-1700 reliable sources page) though Norr is deemed not reliable by The Whitney Research Group.
- ↑ The Hon. Vicary Gibbs and H. Arthur Doubleday. Complete Peerage of Great Britain, Scotland, and Ireland. London: The St. Catherine Press, 34 Norfolk Street Strand, 1913. pp 187-189
- ↑ Complete Peerage of Great Britain, Scotland, and Ireland, p. 189, Author - Gibbs, the Hon. Vicary, and H. Arthur Doubleday
- ↑ The Hon. Vicary Gibbs and H. Arthur Doubleday. Complete Peerage of Great Britain, Scotland, and Ireland. London: The St. Catherine Press, 34 Norfolk Street Strand, 1913. pp 187-189
- ↑ Wikipedia contributors, "Battle of Lewes," Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Battle_of_Lewes&oldid=1105260156 (accessed September 10, 2022).
- ↑ 16.0 16.1 Wikipedia contributors, "Second Barons' War," Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Second_Barons%27_War&oldid=1102367338 (accessed September 8, 2022). The Wikipedia article on Roger de Mortimer (accessed 2 September 2022) says the rescue was in 1265: In 1265 Mortimer's wife, Maud de Braose helped rescue Prince Edward; and Mortimer and the Prince made an alliance against de Montfort.
- ↑ Transactions of the Shropshire Archaeological Society. Vol. X, 1925-1926, Shrewsbury: Brown & Brinnad
- See also:
- Cokayne, G.E., Gibbs, V., ed. The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the United Kingdom (The St. Catherine Press, London, 1910-). See also WikiTree's source page for Complete Peerage.
- Rixford, Elizabeth M. Leach. Families directly descended from all the royal families in Europe (495 to 1932) and Mayflower descendants, by their lineal descendant. Burlington, Vt., Free press printing co., 1932. p 187. Copy available at FamilySearch (accessed 2 September 2022) does not have a page 187 and a search for Harley finds 0 instances.
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Eyton, iv. 253; vi. 234-5. is the footnote for Richard's brother being a Royal clerk. The index gives page 17 for a reference under Harley for "Malcolm of (fl. 1296)". There is no 1296 or Malcolm mentioned on that page, but looking at volume iv of Eyton, the following is found (online copy doesn't have page numbers):
"On March 15, 1291, the King ordered Malcolumb de Harley to make Inquest as to the Advowson of Stottesden:..."
there's also the following in vol iv - to do with the Bromptons, but mentions the King's "beloved Clerk", Malcolm de Harley.
"It is astonishing, when we look at the great Estates of the Bromptons, that a single tenure in capite of 20 acres, by knights'-service, should have entitled the Crown to a control over all. An Escheator's Roll of 1294-5 carefully records the fact that "land in Kynlet Park, Salop, late Brian de Brompton's, viz. 20 acres, is held of the King in capite for a twentieth part of a knight's-fee". [52] This gave the King a right to dispose of the daughters of the last Brian de Brompton in Marriage. Margaret, not yet three years of age, was thus bestowed by Patent, dated June 21, 1296. [53] The King gave her in marriage to "his beloved Clerk", Malcolm de Harley, for the behoof of Robert de Harley, nephew of the said Malcolm, and son of that Richard de Harley whom I have so often mentioned in these pages as husband of the Heiress of Willey. In 1300 I find mention of the death of one John de Brampton; said to have held of the heir of Walter de Brompton then a ward of the Crown. [54] This John was, I think, brother of Sir Walter, and his tenure in 1300 was, strictly speaking, under the Granddaughters and coheirs of the said Walter. At all events the Escheator ultra Trent was ordered to seize his lands for the King, as having his Suzerain or Suzerains in custody. A King's Writ of October 10, 1304, orders the Escheator ultra Trent to extend or value all lands, seized into the King's hand and formerly held by Brian de Brompton, deceased."
and
Other Inquisitions as to the Brompton Estates were taken in pursuance of an order by Edward II, dated 28 Nov., 1308. One of these is nearly illegible, but mentions Sarra de Foxcot and John Vicar of Kinlet, as holding lands in that Manor. Another values the Manor at £25. 9s. 7d. per annum. A third values 23 acres in Kinlet Park at 7s. 8d. per annum. [57]
A Writ of King Edward II's followed these Inquests, reciting that Margaret, wife of Robert de Harley, was now of full age (she must have been under sixteen), and ordering the Escheator to give her and her husband full seizin of the following, viz. the Manor of Brompton, the Hamlet of Weston, the Manor of Bucton, 33s. rent in Stowe, all in the Marshes of Wales, certain land in Kinlet Park, Salop, and the Manor of Ashton, in Herefordshire. [58] Hence came it to pass that in the beginning of the present Century, Brompton Bryan was in the hands of Edward Harley, Earl of Oxford and Mortimer, as the lineal descendant of Robert de Harley and Margaret de Brompton.
https://www.melocki.org.uk/eyton/Vol04.html
Please take a look & edit as you'd like. Then, could you ask Renee to take a look? (You can also ask your Wales Project contacts to review it if you'd like.)
Once you & Renee are happy, I can replace the live bio/datafields on Harley-5 with the info we have here.
I left some notes in the datafields & also put some notes to you in the hidden text. It seems that son Richard's existing profile is a conflation of several Harleys & should probably be detached/repurposed to be the Richard born 1235 with a new profile created for the Richard, son of Robert, born after Alice & Robert were married in 1255. See specifically Monica's comment from October 2021 on Harley-839.
One thing that would be good to pursue, but I'm out of steam, is who the clerk (cleric) brother of Richard's is. If it is Malcolm that Lewis lists as c1262, that would give us a good sources for three of his four children & we might want to consider moving the Children section up (leaving Sybil behind). Or if we cannot find more on that brother, maybe split the children - Richard & Margaret in the Bio section with the other two left in Research Notes?
Cheers, Liz