upload image

Noland-165 Bartrum Notes

Privacy Level: Open (White)
Date: [unknown] [unknown]
Location: [unknown]
Profile manager: Liz Shifflett private message [send private message]
This page has been accessed 93 times.

The Bartrum Project, (digitization of "Welsh Genealogies AD 300- 1500" by Peter C. Bartrum) - was online at the Cadair website, which is no more. Cadair home page and the Bartrum Project's search page were captured by the Wayback Machine, but, apparently, it did not capture any of the pages for the charts. The Bartrum charts are still available online here, but not as a searchable database (as of 2023). See this G2G post. See also my comment in this G2G post.

While Bartrum's work is an excellent source of information, it needs to be used with caution, especially as you follow the lineage back. Many of the people charted do not have any date(s) given, and generations are sometimes condensed. For details, see Darrell Wolcott's article, The Bartrum Welsh Genealogies (accessed 1 August 2019).[1]

See also Space: Stuart's Bartrum Charts & Geni: Bartrum Genealogical Project (accessed 21 May 2023, apparently a clone of the Cadair site).

Contents

Charts in WikiTree & Geni

This section started out for just charts that were available in WikiTree. As a time saver, I started adding charts that I'd looked up in Geni as well (a free Geni login is required to access them). The WikiTree charts are mostly linked at Stuart's Bartrum Charts. You can tell which are which (WikiTree or Geni) by the URL.

A

B

D

E

G

I

M

R

T

Notes from Profiles

A

B

C

  • Cydifor Fawr 15, Jenkin ap Philip ap Morgan m (2) Cecily d. Sir John Welsh of Llan-wern; notes that which wife was mother of Morgan is uncertain. Welsh-853
  • Cydifor Fawr 15(A1), Morgan ap Jenkin, Welsh-853 / "Morgan had two daughters named Margred, one by Elsbeth Vaughan and one by his second wife, Margred Mathew (who married John St John)." Vaughan-186 / Margaret's mother's ancestry St_John-110 - see details below

D

E

  • Einion ap Gollwyn 13, Margred ferch Sir Mathew Cradock, 2nd wife of Sir William Bawdrep Gamage-103
  • Einion ap Llywarch 7(A1)], Thomas ap Gruffudd ap Nicolas Bourgogne-88
    • Einion ap Llywarch 7(A1)], shows 10 children by Elizabeth and 9 by three mistresses, but has two additional legitimate children whose mother is not noted - possibly by Jonet? Bourgogne-88 - see more below
  • Einion ap Llywarch 7(A5)], John ap Thomas Bourgogne-88

F

G

  • Gamage 2, Sir Thomas (knighted 1513), Margaret's husband and their family St_John-110
  • Gamage 2, Sir Thomas Gamage, father of Mary (who married Matthew Herbert of Swansea, one of Richard's grandsons by son George) Herbert-239
  • Gamage 2 Herbert-580
  • Godwin 7, Elizabeth ferch Maurice Lany of Magor, daughter of Mawd ferch Philip ap Thomas Lany-1
  • Godwin 8, Sir William Thomas of Rhaglan (d 1446) Herbert-63
    Godwin 8, parents of William Herbert, Earl of Pembroke (d 1469) Herbert-239
  • Godwin 8(A1), William Herbert, Earl of Pembroke (d 1469) Herbert-63
    Godwin 8(A1), children of William Herbert, Earl of Pembroke (d 1469) Herbert-239
  • Godwin 8(A2), Richard ap William Herbert, of Ewias Herbert-63
  • Godwin 8(A2), Richard of Ewias (son of William, Earl of Pembroke), includes Richard's children by his wife Margred and by his mistress Isabel and also the family of his son George Herbert of Swansea Herbert-239
  • Godwin 8(A2) Herbert-580
  • Gwaithf. 5(A), supporting Catrin ferch Christopher Mathew as wife of Thomas Bawdrep, son of Jane ferch Morgan Gamage and Sir William Bawdrep Gamage-103

H

I

J

K

  • Kemeys 3, wife of Dd ap John Kemeys was Catrin, daughter of Jane ferch Morgan Gamage and Sir William Bawdrep

L

M

N

O

P

Q

R

S

  • Scudamore, Thomas Scudamore, second husband of Margaret's mother (son James b 1472) St_John-110
  • St John 1, Sir John St John (Margaret's father's ancestry) St_John-110

T

U

W

Y

Additional Information

Margaret St John (abt.1480-1562)

from Cydifor Fawr 15(A1), Bartrum's page for Morgan ap Jenkin:
Morgan (living 1448-72) married three times and had two mistresses:
  • Elsbeth f. Sir Roger Vaughan
  • Margred f. Dd Mathew
  • unnamed daughter of "Llw Goch ap Ieuan"
  • unnamed daughter of "Wm Kemeys of Cas-newydd" (not married)
  • Denis f. Watkin Vaughan (not married)
Margred, second of Morgan's daughters with the name, was the daughter of his second wife Margred. Their daughter Margred married (1) Sir John St John, (2) Tos. Scudamore.
Rest transferred to previous (alpha) section.

Jane (Gamage) Bawdrep (abt.1485-abt.1510)

Note: Birth c1485 is based on father "living 1488" (Bartrum)
Sir William Bawdrep (L 1545) married
  1. Jane ferch Morgan Gamage[2]
  2. Margred ferch Sir Mathew Cradock[3]
Jane and Sir William Bawdrep's children:
  • Catrin m Dd ap John Kemeys [Kemeys 3]
  • Thomas Bawdrep m Catrin f. Christopher Mathew [Gwaithf. 5(A)]
  • Margred m John ap William of Llys Tal-y-bant
Info transferred to previous (alpha) section.

Elizabeth (Lany) Herbert (1470-)

Elizabeth ferch Maurice Lany[4]
Elizabeth was the daughter of Maurice Lany of Magor and his wife Mawd ferch Philip ap Thomas.[5]

Thomas Vaughn (abt.1460-)

Thomas Fychan ap Thomas ap Roger ap Thomas of Aberhanddu ap Dafydd Llwyd ap Hywel ab Einion Sais & Letis f. Cadwaladr[4]

Richard Herbert (abt.1442-1510)

Godwin 2, 8, 8(A1), 8(A2). Info transferred to previous section.

Elizabeth Bourgogne (abt.1430-)

Einion ap Llywarch 7(A1)[6] names two of his mistresses:[6]
  • NN ["no name"] f. Edward Langley of France[1]
  • NN f. Thomas Robri of Aberystwyth
[1] "So J*318, Carms 81, but NN f. Francis, Duke of Burgundy by Catrin f. Tos. [arch-]bishop of Canterbury (LD.I.189)
"NN. f. Duke of Burgundy (LD.I.98), NN f. Arglwydd Rron (LD.ii.26)"
"John (III) [Einion ap Llywarch 7(A5)]" is the only child specifically marked as being by his unnamed mistress "f. Edward Langley of France".
Additional information entered in previous (alpha) section.

Margaret (ferch Morgan) Gamage (abt.1427-abt.1468)

John and Margred's known children were Morgan and Jane (the mother of John's son William was not Margred):
  • Morgan Gamage, m "Margred f. Sir Roger Vaughan of Tretwr"[7]
  • Jane Gamage, m "William ap Robert Mathew"[7][8]
  • William Gamage, m "Gwenllian f. Dd. ap Llywelyn"[9]
Margred who m John son of Thomas Gamage was the daughter of Morgan and Efa (see Iestyn 19)

Cecily (Welsh) gwraig Jenkin ap Philip (abt.1385-)

Cecily married, as his second wife, Jenkin ap Philip. His first wife was Jonet ferch Gwilym of Peutun ap Llywelyn ap Hywel Fychan.[10]
Which of Jenkin's wives was the mother of Morgan is unclear. Cecily may have been his mother. Jonet was the mother of "William Morgan". A son Gruffydd is connected to Jenkin with a question mark and no mother indicated.[11]
Additional information added in previous (alpha) section.

Info Collection Area

delete or move to previous section after adding info to "Notes from Profiles" section
"copy WIki link" for headings in the previous section

Profiles to check - from my contributions feed after correcting cadair updates

Efa ferch Ieuan (abt.1400-)

Efa ferch Ieuan was born about 1400.[12]

Father: Ieuan Gethin of Baglan, son of Ieuan ap Lleision of Baglan and his wife Efa ferch Llywelyn.[13]
Mother: Elsbeth ferch Thomas,[13][14] daughter of Jonet ferch Llywelyn Fychan of Meisgyn[15] and Thomas, son of Ifor Hael of Gwern-y-clepa ("Gwern y klepa ymassalec...in Bassaleg"[16]) and his wife Nest ferch Rhun.[17]
Husband: Morgan of Radur, son of Llywelyn ap Ieuan ap Llywelyn ap Cynwrig.[18] Morgan's mother was a daughter of Ieuan[19] ap Gruffudd ap Iorwerth.[20]
Children:

Roger (Vaughan) Ieuange (abt.1394-1415)

"It is certain that Roger Vaughan left three sons by Gwladys, daughter of Dafydd Gam — Watkin, heir of Bredwardine, Thomas ap Roger [see Vaughan of Hergest family], and (Sir) Roger Vaughan [see Vaughan of Tretower family] — and that they were brought up with their uterine brothers, William Herbert, earl of Pembroke (d. 1469 ) (q.v.), and Sir Richard Herbert (d. 1469 ), sons of Sir William ap Thomas of Raglan (d. 1446 )."[23] Bartrum (Drymbenog 2) also shows three sons of Roger & Gwladus f. Dafydd Gam: Watkin, Thomas, and Roger (and five daughters).

Mabli ferch Gruffudd (aft.1420-)

Mabli, daughter of Gruffudd ap Nicholas and Jane ferch Jenkin, married Philip ap John Mansel. Their children included Jane (Mansel) Craddock and Jenkin Mansel....
Research Notes
Children
  • three sons named in a 1459 entail: John, Leonard, and Jenkin[24]
  • daughter Jane or Alice (married Mathew Craddock) is shown as her daughter by #Bartrum, Celtic Genealogy, and ThePeerage; wife of Sir Mathew Craddock shown as Elizabeth, daughter of Philip's second wife Elizabeth Lane, by #Mansel_Family_History
Bartrum Charts:
  • Mansel 1, Philip Mansel & Mary
  • Einion ap Llywarch 7, Gruffudd (fl 1425-56) and Jane f. Jenkin, parents of Mary Mabli m Philip ap John Mansel.

Footnotes

  1. ↑ From Wales Pre 1500 Resources (accessed 20 May 2023).
  2. ↑ Gamage 1, Bartrum
  3. ↑ Einion ap Gollwyn 13, Bartrum
  4. ↑ 4.0 4.1 Bartrum Chart: Godwin 8(A1)
  5. ↑ Bartrum Chart: Godwin 7
  6. ↑ 6.0 6.1 Bartrum: Einion ap Llywarch 7(A1)
  7. ↑ 7.0 7.1 Bartrum: Gamage 1
  8. ↑ see also Bartrum: Gwaithfoed 5
  9. ↑ Bartrum: Gamage 3
  10. ↑ Bleddyn ap Maenyrch 18 (#Bartrum); note that this Bartrum chart for Llywelyn ap Hywel also does not show a daughter named Catherine for his son "Gwilym of Peutun"
  11. ↑ See Bartrum's chart for Jenkin ([Cydifor Fawr 15)
  12. ↑ Birth about 1400 is a guess based on birth years for Margaret (1427) and Catrin (1436) and general ages for first marriages in Wales at the time (see Darrell Wolcott's article Generational Gaps and the Welsh Laws: husbands usually established/in possession of inherited lands (about age 30) and women as wife/mother much younger (about 14, 15). Birth year guess for her husband Morgan is 1378, based on his father Llywelyn ap Ieuan living in 1381 (Iestyn 19, #Bartrum).
  13. ↑ 13.0 13.1 Iestyn 6, #Bartrum
  14. ↑ In WikiTree, not attached because of the database error caused with Elsbeth b c1420 and Efa born c1400. Resolution of this date impossibility has been elusive.
  15. ↑ Iestyn 15, #Bartrum
  16. ↑ Dictionary of Welsh Biography (DWB): Entry for Ifor Hael, Emeritus Professor Sir Ifor Williams (1959)
  17. ↑ Cydifor Fawr 16 (#Bartrum), which shows death of Ifor Hael as 1361 [with footnote "LPM 329"], but the article on Ifor Hael (#DWB), says
    "...the birth of Ifor may be assigned to c. 1313 or 1319 at the earliest. He would, therefore, have fl. c. 1340-60. It is known that his eldest brother, Morgan, d. before 1384 (Clark, Limbus Patrum, 310), but there is no certainty as to when Ifor or his wife Nest, d.; the year 1380 is a suggestion only."
  18. ↑ Iestyn 17, #Bartrum
  19. ↑ 19.0 19.1 19.2 Iestyn 19, #Bartrum
  20. ↑ Drymbenog 10, #Bartrum. The Bartrum charts do not include a name for Morgan's mother.
  21. ↑ Gamage 1, #Bartrum
  22. ↑ Gwaithfoed 5, #Bartrum
  23. ↑ Dictionary of Welsh Biography: "Vaughan family of Bredwardine, Herefordshire," article by Evan David Jones, F.S.A., (1903-87), Aberystwyth
  24. ↑ An Inventory of the Ancient Monuments in Glamorgan: Volume III - Part 1b: Medieval Secular Monuments the Later Castles from 1217 to the present (Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments in Wales, 2000), see page 289 (notes for "Section LM - Later Masonry Castles" apparently on pp 292-311, which are not available in Google snippit view). Page 492 says that "Rice Mansel (1487-1559), son of Jenkin, [was] raised by his influential uncle Sir Mathew Cradock." It (page 492) also only mentions one wife for Philip, saying he "married a daughter of Gruffudd ap Nicholas . . . a leading Welsh Lancastrian."




Collaboration
  • Login to edit this profile and add images.
  • Private Messages: Send a private message to the Profile Manager. (Best when privacy is an issue.)
  • Public Comments: Login to post. (Best for messages specifically directed to those editing this profile. Limit 20 per day.)


Comments

Leave a message for others who see this profile.
There are no comments yet.
Login to post a comment.