Date: [unknown] [unknown]
Location: [unknown]

Apparently (according to WikiTree), I'm descended from Lleison ap Rhys, but the Dwnn Visitations and WikiTree dates are wildly different. I had worked on updating the profile for Lleison, but the dates are just too off & I restored to the previous version (after copying what I'd done, below).

Contents 1 My Lineage 2 Pre-1500 Reasonable to Iffy Date Ranges 3 Rhys-77 3.1 Biography 3.2 Research Notes 3.2.1 Estimated Date 3.3 Sources

My Lineage

dates as of 4 January 2023

1. Liz is the daughter of Peyton Noland DNA confirmed
2. Peyton is the son of Henry Peyton Noland (1896-1935) [confident]
3. Henry is the son of Thomas Vaughan Noland (1864-1914) [confident]
4. Thomas is the son of Henry Peyton Noland (1841-1893) [confident]
5. Henry is the son of Pearce Noland (1789-1857) [confident]
6. Pearce is the son of George Noland (abt.1763-1800) [confident]
7. George is the son of Sarah (Awbrey) Noland (abt.1720-aft.1763)]] [unknown confidence]
8. Sarah is the daughter of Francis Awbrey (aft.1676-bef.1742) [confident]
9. Francis is the son of John Awbrey (abt.1623-1692) [confident]
10. John is the son of Elizabeth (Johnes) Awbrey (aft.1576-1650) [confident]
11. Elizabeth is the daughter of Thomas (Johnes) Jones (abt.1555-bef.1605) [confident]
12. Thomas is the son of Elizabeth (Herbert) Jones (abt.1540-1571) [confident]
13. Elizabeth is the daughter of Mary (Gamage) Herbert (abt.1520-) [confident]
14. Mary is the daughter of Thomas Gamage (abt.1476-bef.1543) [confident]
15. Thomas is the son of Morgan Gamage (abt.1447-aft.1488) [confident]
16. Morgan is the son of Margaret (ferch Morgan) Gamage (abt.1427-abt.1468) [confident]
17. Margaret is the daughter of Efa ferch Ieuan (abt.1400-) [unknown confidence]
18. Efa is the daughter of Ieuan Gethin ap Ieuan (1376-) [unknown confidence]
19. Ieuan Gethin is the son of Ieuan ap Lleision (abt.1300-) [unknown confidence]
20. Ieuan is the son of Lleison ap Rhys (1214- & Efa ferch Ieuan — married 1259 in Baglan, Glamorgan, Wales
21. Lleison is the son of Rhys ap Morgan (1167-) and Nest ferch Cynwrig (1182-, married 1207 in Baglan
22. Rhys ap Morgan (1167-), son of Morgan Fychan - shown by WikiTree to have been born in 1140, which is not possible if this is the same Morgan Fychan who died in 1288.^[1]

The Dictionary of Welsh Biography article about Morgan Fychan - who was the son of Morgan Gam and died in 1288 - says that Morgan Fychan's younger son Rhys "succeeded to his father's lands in Baglan". It also says that Morgan Fychan's son Lleision died in 1328, and that Lleision was "the first of the family to adopt the surname 'de Avene,' was certainly lord of Avan, being succeeded there in turn by his son and grandson, John and Thomas de Avene." Morgan Fychan, according to the article, "may for a time have been deprived of Avan, for in 1282 he is described merely as lord of a half commote in Baglan."^[1]

The WikITree profile attached as son of Morgan Fychan (born 1140) is Rhys ap Morgan (1167-).

Pre-1500 Reasonable to Iffy Date Ranges

As just noted, the WikiTree dates don't work at all by the time they get to Rhys (born 1167), son of Morgan Fychan (born 1140), when DWB says that Morgan Fychan died in 1288 and was succeeded by his son Rhys.^[1] But where did they go wrong? That's what this section was created for.

Profiles, as of 4 January 2023, have the following dates -

• Thomas Gamage, born about 1476, was father of Mary (born c1520) and son of Morgan (born c1447), which seems reasonable:
  • daughter born (c1520) when he was 44
  • he was born (c1476) when his father was 29
• Morgan (born c1447), Thomas's father, was the son of Margaret (born c1427) - when she was c20 (seems reasonable too)
• Margaret (born c1427) was the daughter of Efa (born c1400) - still reasonable
• Efa (born c1400) was the daughter of Ieuan Gethin, born c1376... when he was 24 (which is actually a bit young, but not unreasonable)
• BUT ... dates get weird from there... Ieuan, born c1376, could have been born when his father Ieuan was 76 years old, but unlikely that his mother was 61-year-old Efa ferch Llewelyn (born about 1315)
• Ieuan's birth c1300 cannot really be moved closer to his son's 1376 birth, considering the profiles for the parents that he is attached to were born c1214 and c1233
  • Ieuan's father, Lleison ap Rhys, born c1214 (86 when Ieuan was born... which _would_ explain why Ieuan married younger than usual)
  • Ieuan's mother, Efa ferch Ieuan, born c1233 (67 when Ieuan was born)
• Lleison, born about 1214, is back on track with his parents -
  • father Rhys ap Morgan (1167-) 47 when Lleison was born
  • mother Nest ferch Cynwrig (1182-, 32 when Lleison was born

Things went awry from there, however, when attempting to source the profile for Lleison ap Rhys, born about 1214. See the following attempt to update his profile (not left "live" on the profile).

Rhys-77

Biography

Lleison ap Rhys, born 1214 in Baglan, Glamorgan, Wales, son of Rhys ap Morgan and Nest ferch Cynwrig. He married Efa ferch Ieuan in 1259 in Baglan, Glamorgan, Wales. They had at least one child: Ieuan ap Lleision.^[2]

Research Notes

"Rhys" as LNAB is not correct (per Wales Project guidelines). According to the image attached (Dwnn, pp 238-9),^[3] his father is "Rys L. off Afan", son of Morgan. Going backwards from the only date in the pedigree (1609) lands at this in the early to mid-1300s. But WikiTree's profile for Rhys ap Morgan (Morgan-4960) has Rhys's birth 1167 (which is, presumably, why this profile's birth year was changed from 1320 to 1214).

The source that was listed for this profile - Dwnn, page 265^[4] - does not mention a Rhys, born either 1214 or 1320. From the profile attached as father (as of 4 January 2023):

Removed Rhys ap Morgan (1170) as husband of Nest verch Cynwrig (1300) and father of Lleison ap Rhys (1320) until further info is found.

Removed Lleison ap Rhys (1320) as son of Rhys ap Morgan (1167) and Nest verch (Kynvrig) Cynwrig (1182)

That profile - Rhys (Morgan) ap Morgan (1167-) - also listed Dwnn, page 265 as source.^[5]

When this profile had a birth year of 1320, he was detached as husband of Efa verch Ieuan (1233).

Estimated Date

As mentioned above, a rough estimate going backward from the only date in the pedigree of the attached image (from Dwnn), hit early/mid-1300s. But a less rough estimate, using 30 for father's age at birth & 15 for mother's, puts the birth of this "Leison ap Rhys" ([Rhys-77]) at about 1400:^[3]

• 1609 - David Lloyd, m Ellen ferch David Lloyd - "David Lloyd o Faes y Krygie 1609"
• c1580 - David Lloyd ap Howel o Faes y krugie, m Sioned
• c1565 - Eva ferch "ag aeres Rys ap David ap Howel ap Kydwgan", m "Howel ap David ap Howel vychan..."
• c1550 - Dyddgu , m Rys ap David Ap Howel... ap Tewdwr"
• c1520 - Gruffydd ap Llewelyn
• c1490 - Llewellyn ap "Ieuan las"
• c1460 - Ieuan las ap Ieuan Esg
• c1430 - Ieuan ap Lleission Esg, m Eva ferch "Llewelyn ap Rys ap Gronw"
• c1400 - Lleission ap Rys Esg, m Gwladys ferch "Ieuan ap Einion..."

Also note that the pedigree shows Gwladys ferch Ieuan, not Efa ferch Ieuan.^[3]

Sources

1. ↑ ^{1.0 1.1 1.2} Dictionary of Welsh Biography: MORGAN FYCHAN (died 1288), lord of the Welsh barony of Avan Wallia (or Nedd-Afan) in the honour of Glamorgan, by Professor Thomas Jones Pierce (accessed 4 January 2023).
2. ↑ Bio based on datafield info as of 4 January 2023.
3. ↑ ^{3.0 3.1 3.2} Attached image (Dwnn, pp 238-9).
4. ↑ As listed on this profile, as of 3 January 2023:
   • Lewys Dwnn, Heraldic Visitations Of Wales And Part Of The Marches Between The Years 1586 And 1613, volume 1, page 265.
5. ↑ As listed on the profile attached as father 3 January 2023, Morgan-4960:
   • Lewys Dwnn, Heraldic Visitations Of Wales And Part Of The Marches Between The Years 1586 And 1613.