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copy of Oliver Saint John's profile as of 5 am, 21 December 2022

Magna Carta|No Trail

Contents

Biography

Oliver Saint John, Knt., of Fonmon and Penmark, Glamorgan, Wales, and Paulerspury, Northamptonshire[1]

Sir Oliver St. John of Bletneshoe in com. Bedfordshire. Knight, sonne and heire. Oliver married Margaret, daughter of John Beauchamp. He was father of Sir John St. John of Bletneshoe in com. Bedfordshire, Knight, sonne & heire who married Alice, dau of Sir Thomas Bradshawe in Hawe, com. Lancashire, Knight.[2]

Parents: John Saint John, Knt., and Isabel[1][3][4]
Born: "about 1398 (adult before 1428)"[1]
Married: Margaret Beauchamp, daughter of John Beauchamp, Knt., and his second wife, Edith Stourton[1]
Children:
  • John St John, K.B., married (1) Alice Bradshagh, (2) Elizabeth ferch William Mathew Fawr[1]
  • Oliver St John, Esq., married Elizabeth Scrope[1]
  • Edith St John, married Geoffrey Pole, Esq.[1]
  • Mary St John, married Richard Frogenhall, Knt.[1] (Sir Richard Tregonnell)[2]
  • Elizabeth St John, married (1) William Zouche, Knt., (2) John Scrope, K.G.[1]
  • Agnes St John, married (1) John Heron, Esq., (2) David Malpas, Esq.[1]
  • Margaret St John, Abess of Shaftesbury, Dorset[1]
Died: "in 1437, and was buried at the Church of the Jacobins at Rouen, Normandy"[1]
Church of St. Jacques des Jacobins, Rouen, Departement de la Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, France[5]
Oliver's widow Margaret married (2) John Beaufort, K.G., Duke of Somerset, after 2 August 1441; (3) Lionel (or Leo) Welles, K.G., 6th Lord Welles, as his second wife, by license dated 14 April 1447 (settlement dated 20 April 1447). Margaret died shortly before 3 June 1482.[1]

Titles

Earl of Bollingbrooke[citation needed]
Sheriff of Glamorganshire[citation needed]

Research Notes

Birth location: FindAGrave has "Bletsoe, Bedford Borough, Bedfordshire, England"[5] but his wife Margaret was "of Bletsoe". More likely he was born in Penmark, as both he and his father are "of Penmark, Glamorgan, Wales."[1] (FindAGrave also had birth as 8 July 1400.)[5]

Margaret Beauchamp "was heiress in 1420 to her brother, John Beauchamp, by which she inherited the manors of Bletsoe and Keysoe, Bedfordshire, Ashmore, Dorset, and Lydiard Tregoze, Wiltshire."[1]

Upon saving (5 April 2018), received the following automated message: "A father's death date (St John-68 died 1437) should not be more than nine months before one of his children's birth dates (St John-314 born 1438)."

resolved by changing birth for St John-314 from about 1438 to about 1437. ~ Noland-165 19:59, 5 April 2018 (EDT)

Barry Castle

Oliver, son of John St John and his wife Isabel, is said to have come into possession of Barry Castle by way of his mother.[citation needed] Comments on her profile include

  • She brought Barry Castle to the de Port-St. John family because her mother was the sister of Isabella de la Mare that married John de Barry.[6]
  • In the 1429 Beauchamp Survey of Glamorgan, her son Oliver de Port-St. John was holding Barry Castle.[7]
  • "Lucas de Barry fl. by 1322 when he deeded Barry to his son John de Barry when he married Isabella de la Mare. So John and Isabella were probably born circa 1304. Eleanor her sister would likely be an adult in this period too. I doubt she married William Paulet in 1398 while being born before 1322. In 1321, John de Barry became involved in the rebellion of the barons, as a result of which his lands and goods were confiscated so he was clearly an adult by then."

Information about Barry Castle:

  • Barry Castle (Welsh: Castell y Barri) is a small Grade II* listed ruined two-storey gatehouse with the adjacent walls of a hall located in the Romilly district of Barry, Vale of Glamorgan in south Wales.[8]
  • "In the second half of the fourteenth century, the next owner of the castle was Oliver St. John, Lord of Fonmon, and then members of the St. Johns of Bletsoe."[9]
  • "The stone East building was raised in the 13th century, possibly by Lucas de Barry, while the more extensive south range (which comprised a hall and a gatehouse) was probably the work of John de Barry who held the manor for most of the first half of the 14th century. (Glamorgan-Gwent Archaeological Trust HER)"[10][11][12]
  • … same period several other deeds relating to land in the neighbourhood. A Walter de Barry also appears. He witnessed a grant of land in Bonvilston to Margam Abbey, 20th July, 1281, and another, undated, of perhaps the same period or somewhat earlier. A Lucas de Barry took part in the Comitatus, 3rd August, 1299. About 1320 a person is described in a deed as John, son and heir of William de Barry, burgess… [13]
  • …As to Barry Castle, Mr. Clark considers it to have been built (at least as regards the gateway) in the time of Henry III or Edward I, and there is no reason to doubt that it was built by one of the de Barry family.… [14]
  • Possession of Barry, according to An Inventory of the Ancient Monuments in Glamorgan...[11]
    • Lucas de Barry (fl. 1287-1323), "before his departure on campaign in Scotland with Edward I, granted his manor of 'West Barry' to his son John on his marriage to Isabelle, daughter of Philip de la More.[11]"
    • John de Barry (fl. 1300-40), "the probable builder of the phase II stone castle, was numbered with those Glamorgan tenants who were involved in the baronial uprising of 1321 and, in consequence, his lands in the lordship were confiscated.[12] His position had been restored by 1327, when he sat on an inquisition at Cardiff. John and Isabelle had two sons, Richard and Thomas, and a daughter, Joan. Both sons died without issue ca. 1350 and the manor of Barry passed to Joan (fl. 1331-51), and on her death to her surviving younger son, Thomas Marshal (fl. 1340-86).[13]
    • "From Thomas Marshal, Barry seems to have passed to Oliver St. John (fl. 1339-73), lord of Fonmon... who settled it on his younger son, Alexander, who died without issue.[14]"
  • "...before his death in 1373, Oliver made provision for his trustees to settle Fonmon on his eldest son John, and Barry on his younger son Alexander.[10] John de St John III (1373-1424)... received a royal grant... in 1406, of William de la Mare's lands at Llangennydd, which were forfeited by rebellion;...[11] ... Around 1420, he obtained possession of Barry on the death without issue of his younger brother Alexander John de la Bere's manor[15]
  • Sir John's son and heir was Oliver. Sir John's younger son was named Alexander.[15]

A timeline on a Barry webpage says that the castle was sold to the St Johns. The following entries were included (among others):[16]

  • 1295 ~ Lucas strengthens his castle with the building of a new gatehouse due to the ongoing threat of Welsh rebellion led by the deposed Welsh lord Madogap Llywellyn. The revolt proves so serious that the Marcher lord Gilbert de Clare is unable to subdue and has to call on King Edward I for help.
  • 1321 ~ John de Barry joins rebellious barons against King Edward II and as a direct result later forfeits his castle and estates.
  • 1327 ~ Upon the murder of King Edward II in Berkeley Castle, John de Barry see's his castle and estates restored to him.
    The castle is however later sold to the St John's of Fonmon, Lord of Penmark. He in turn leases the castle to John Andrew of Rhoose for life.

Lucas's ancestors, from a 2016 blogpost about Barry Castle by Jonathan and Mark Lambert: "The first recorded member of the de Barry family was one William de Barry (1180–1234). In 1225 William saw military service in Ireland fighting for King Henry III and during the years 1232-4 William de Barry was involved in Richard Marshal’s rebellion. William also witnessed charters being granted at the comitatus at Cardiff in 1201 and again in 1208. William had a son named Lucas."[17]

From the same website: "There is recorded another William de Barry as resident of Barry castle during the mid-thirteenth century. This William is also recorded as being a witness to charters being granted at the comitatus at Cardiff in 1247 and again in 1249; William was also witness to a land grant relating to Cogan. By the end of the thirteenth century Barry was in the hands of a second Lucas de Barry (1287–1323), who was present on one of Edward I Scottish campaigns. The de Barry's during the thirteenth century were clearly busy people who not only lived up to their feudal obligations on a local level but were actively engaged in national affairs of consequence."[17]

And also: "The resident lord of Barry manor at the time the gatehouse was built was John de Barry (1300-40) whose father Lucas de Barry granted John the manor upon his marriage to Isabelle, daughter of Philip de la More, before he left to embark on Edward I Scottish campaign."[17]

The website notes John's loss of his holdings (1321) and their restoration (1327) and that he had two sons and a daughter, with his daughter Joan (1331-51) the surviving heir of Barry and, upon her death, it passed to her son Thomas Marshall (1340-86). "The manor of Barry upon Thomas's death became a possession of the St John's of Fonmon who were to retain ownership of the manor for centuries to come."[17]

The blogpost said this of the St John's stewardship:

"The transfer of ownership of the manor of Barry to the St John's saw the beginning of the decline of Barry Castle as a lordly residence as it seems that the St John's did not invest in its maintenance. It is likely that the disasters of the middle of the fourteenth century such as plague and famine contributed towards this decline.
"By the time John Leland visited Barry Castle in the 1530’s it had become ruinous as Leland records 'this castle stondith on a little hil, and most of it is in ruine. Master St John of Bedfordshire is lorde of it'. ... In the year 1666 the manor of Barry was sold by the St John's to Evan Says of Boverton for £1,740."[17]

Sources

  1. ↑ 1.00 1.01 1.02 1.03 1.04 1.05 1.06 1.07 1.08 1.09 1.10 1.11 1.12 1.13 1.14 Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, 5 vols., ed. Kimball G. Everingham (Salt Lake City, Utah: the author, 2013), Vol IV, pp 528-533 SAINT JOHN #15. Margaret Beauchamp
  2. ↑ 2.0 2.1 Frederick Augustus Blayden, Ed. St. John of Bletsoe; The Visitations of Bedfordshire, 1566, 1582, 1634 London, 1884. Pages 15 and 52 (accessed 2 September 2019).
  3. ↑ See Isabel's profile for details, but her married name - not her maiden name - was Paveley.
  4. ↑ Visitations of Bedfordshire, pp 51-52, describes arms with Paveley included, but not Paulet. Shows Paveley as a couple of generations up from where Richardson has her (as wife of Oliver/daughter of Paveley, rather than widow of Paveley). The Visitations does not give a surname for "Elizabeth", mother of Oliver who married Margaret Beauchamp.
  5. ↑ 5.0 5.1 5.2 Find A Grave: Memorial #82836439 for Oliver St John. Note: FindAGrave memorials are not considered reliable sources for pre-1700 profiles (see the Magna Carta Project's Reliable Sources entry on FindAGrave memorials).
  6. ↑ https://stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I11682&tree=OSA0001
  7. ↑ https://stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I104783382&tree=OSA0001
  8. ↑ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Castle
  9. ↑ https://medievalheritage.eu/en/main-page/heritage/wales/barry-castle/
  10. ↑ http://www.gatehouse-gazetteer.info/Welshsites/343.html
  11. ↑ 11.0 11.1 An Inventory of the Ancient Monuments in Glamorgan ..., page 24
  12. ↑ Search of BHO for Lucas de Barry had one result - viewing it requires a subscription, but the following was included in the results:
    • Devonia. Lucas de Barry attornavit coram rege Radulfum Barn' in loquela que est... ~ 'Close Rolls, June 1237', in Calendar of Close Rolls, Henry III: Volume 3, 1234-1237, ed. H C Maxwell Lyte (London, 1908), pp. 534-539. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/cal-close-rolls/hen3/vol3/pp534-539 [accessed 21 December 2022].
  13. ↑ Reports and transactions (Cardiff Naturalists' Society), 1900-1981, Vol. LVI, 1 Ionawr 1923, Tudalen: 232 (attempted to access 21 December 2022 - does not load to my computer).
  14. ↑ Reports and transactions (Cardiff Naturalists' Society), 1900-1981, Vol. LVI, 1 Ionawr 1923, Tudalen: 233 (does not load to my computer).
  15. ↑ 15.0 15.1 An Inventory of the Ancient Monuments in Glamorgan ..., page 148.
  16. ↑ https://castle-finders.co.uk/Wales/barry%20castle.html
  17. ↑ 17.0 17.1 17.2 17.3 17.4 Jonathan and Mark Lambert, Barry Castle blogpost, 12 July 2016 (accessed 21 December 2022).

Acknowledgements

Magna Carta Project

No Magna Carta trail
A descendant of this Oliver St John, with the same name, is documented by Richardson as having a trail to a Magna Carta surety baron. This Oliver ([St John-68]) is not (the trail goes through this Oliver's wife Margaret de Beauchamp). ~ Noland-165 14:53, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
See St_John-338#Magna Carta Project - that Oliver St John is this one's 3x-gr-grandfather & shows a potential trail between Gateway Ancestor Thomas Booth and Magna Carta Surety Baron Henry de Bohun. See the Magna Carta Project's base camp for more information about Magna Carta trails. ~ Noland-165 15:18, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

update, 20 December 2022 - the Magna Carta Project section was removed from St John-338, since the project will not be developing the trail it is in. The following, which was copied from the change details page for the other Oliver (St John-338), has been edited slightly to indicate that it is about a different Oliver, NOT St John-68:

The profile for the other Oliver (St John-338) is not part of a trail under review by the [[Project:Magna_Carta|Magna Carta Project] but was developed in accordance with project standards. ~ Liz Shifflett, 27 October 2017, 12:08 (EDT)
The trail for Oliver St John-338 (the other Oliver) runs from Magna Carta Surety Baron Henry de Bohun to Gateway Ancestor Thomas Booth.

copy of bio text for De_Thornden-2

Biography

The wife of Alexander de Besford (married 1294 in Thornden, Worcestershire, England) was born about 1276 in Thornden. She was the mother of John de Besford and died in 1340 in Besford, Worcestershire.[citation needed][18]

Name: FNU /de Thornden/[18]

Research Notes

From Isaac Taylor, 20x-gr-grandson, in response to a query about his comment that her given name is Beatrice:

Liz, here are some links that may help:
I haven't digged into this personally, but I have her as Beatrice on my Ancestry tree, and haven't seen contradictory info. Have you? I haven't seen anything at all about her - I adopted the profile based on WikiTree saying I'm a lineal descendant. ~ Liz
Following the multiple-widow links seems best. For confirmation or disproof.

Isaac also posted a second comment in reply to my query:

BTW fixing the Beatrice thing may require fixing the which-Besford thing, ie who's Agnes Throckmorton's father? It may also reveal a conflation we need to fix in a merge, not sure.

Which led me to find that it seems this couple (Alexander & unknown de Thornton) are the grandparents of another Alexander & de Thornton - that de Thornton's given name being Beatrice, and that couple the parents of Agnes (Besford) Throckmorton (whose husband Thomas and son John were both MPs, according to their WikiTree profiles, so add History of Parliament Online to links that may help!).

Sources

  1. ↑ 1.00 1.01 1.02 1.03 1.04 1.05 1.06 1.07 1.08 1.09 1.10 1.11 1.12 1.13 1.14 Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, 5 vols., ed. Kimball G. Everingham (Salt Lake City, Utah: the author, 2013), Vol IV, pp 528-533 SAINT JOHN #15. Margaret Beauchamp
  2. ↑ 2.0 2.1 Frederick Augustus Blayden, Ed. St. John of Bletsoe; The Visitations of Bedfordshire, 1566, 1582, 1634 London, 1884. Pages 15 and 52 (accessed 2 September 2019).
  3. ↑ See Isabel's profile for details, but her married name - not her maiden name - was Paveley.
  4. ↑ Visitations of Bedfordshire, pp 51-52, describes arms with Paveley included, but not Paulet. Shows Paveley as a couple of generations up from where Richardson has her (as wife of Oliver/daughter of Paveley, rather than widow of Paveley). The Visitations does not give a surname for "Elizabeth", mother of Oliver who married Margaret Beauchamp.
  5. ↑ 5.0 5.1 5.2 Find A Grave: Memorial #82836439 for Oliver St John. Note: FindAGrave memorials are not considered reliable sources for pre-1700 profiles (see the Magna Carta Project's Reliable Sources entry on FindAGrave memorials).
  6. ↑ https://stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I11682&tree=OSA0001
  7. ↑ https://stjohngenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I104783382&tree=OSA0001
  8. ↑ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Castle
  9. ↑ https://medievalheritage.eu/en/main-page/heritage/wales/barry-castle/
  10. ↑ http://www.gatehouse-gazetteer.info/Welshsites/343.html
  11. ↑ 11.0 11.1 An Inventory of the Ancient Monuments in Glamorgan ..., page 24
  12. ↑ Search of BHO for Lucas de Barry had one result - viewing it requires a subscription, but the following was included in the results:
    • Devonia. Lucas de Barry attornavit coram rege Radulfum Barn' in loquela que est... ~ 'Close Rolls, June 1237', in Calendar of Close Rolls, Henry III: Volume 3, 1234-1237, ed. H C Maxwell Lyte (London, 1908), pp. 534-539. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/cal-close-rolls/hen3/vol3/pp534-539 [accessed 21 December 2022].
  13. ↑ Reports and transactions (Cardiff Naturalists' Society), 1900-1981, Vol. LVI, 1 Ionawr 1923, Tudalen: 232 (attempted to access 21 December 2022 - does not load to my computer).
  14. ↑ Reports and transactions (Cardiff Naturalists' Society), 1900-1981, Vol. LVI, 1 Ionawr 1923, Tudalen: 233 (does not load to my computer).
  15. ↑ 15.0 15.1 An Inventory of the Ancient Monuments in Glamorgan ..., page 148.
  16. ↑ https://castle-finders.co.uk/Wales/barry%20castle.html
  17. ↑ 17.0 17.1 17.2 17.3 17.4 Jonathan and Mark Lambert, Barry Castle blogpost, 12 July 2016 (accessed 21 December 2022).
  18. ↑ 18.0 18.1 Ancestry Family Trees (Family Tree files submitted by Ancestry members, source citation for the WikiTree profile created through the import of LJ Pellman Consolidated Family_2011-03-21.ged on 21 March 2011): https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/6835128/person/-559215145/facts




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