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Workspace for sorting Thomas Winn/Wynne ...

Comment on Wynne-390 1 June 2021 by Mary Gresham:

Thomas Wynne (Wynne-390) was named in the Will of his father Thomas Wynne as receiving 200 acres of land in Dinwiddie County. The other Thomas Winn (Winn-455) lived and died in Lunenburg County. I believe these two Thomases both charted to be married to Elizabeth Bannister are conflated. DNA clearly shows that the descendants of the Wynne/Wingfield lines that go back to Robert of Canterbury Group M do not match the descendants of Richard and Phoebe Wilkes Winn of Middlesex who are part of the DNA Group K that descends from Puleston, Wales.

So... they shouldn't be merged but only one is married to Elizabeth Bannister-4.

Contents

Copy of Wynne-390

As of 12 December 2021.

datafields:

  • Thomas Wynne, born about 1720 in Lunenburg County, Virginia
  • Son of Thomas Wynne Jr and [mother unknown]
  • Brother of Joshua Wynne [half], Joseph Winn [half], John Winn [half] and Phebe (Wynne) Rainey [half]
  • Husband of Elizabeth (Bannister) Winn — married [date unknown] in Lunenburg County, Virginia
  • [no children attached]
  • Died about 1780 in Lunenburg County, Virginia (THIS IS THE WRONG DATE)

Category:Wynne {Estimated Date} {US Southern Colonist|Virginia} Note: Disputed Profile as to the Parents (Compare to Winn-455)

Marriage Thomas Wynne (1720-1780) Fact Details Lunenburg, Lunenburg, Virginia, United States Spouse Elizabeth Bannister (WRONG WIFE) 1720–

Research Note: This person may be the same as Thomas Winn b. 1720 (Winn-455) who married Elizabeth Bannister as first wife and Sarah Parke as 2nd wife.

Thomas Winn b. abt 1720 is believed to be the son of Richard Winn and Phoebe Wilkes not Thomas Wynne. DNA places his descendants into Group K which does not match with the descendants of the Wynne/Wingfield descendants. It is thought now that Thomas Winn who married Elizabeth Bannister is the grandson of Richard and Ann Cocke Winn of Middlesex County, and son of Richard Winn of Middlesex/Hanover who married Phoebe Wilkes.

Important Research Notes on Winn DNA at FTDNA

The Wynne-Winn Family that Daniel Winn descends from may be from the Puleston DNA Group which is a Welsh-origin group. This line descends from John Wynn of Trefechan ap Edward ap Howell ap Edward ap Madog Puleston (Trefechan, Dinhille Ucha, of Ruabon Parish is now called Penycae in Wrexham). The important revelation is that the descendants of Thomas Wynne and Martha Wingfield absolutely do not match the descendants of Daniel Winn.

(Important Note: There are no suggested dates for these proposed Welsh ancestors of Daniel Winn so connecting them to him at this time is not advised. What is needed is a documented descendant of the Welsh Puleston line still living in Wales or a documented Virginia Puleston descendant)

Within the proposed Winn/Puleston group there are six confirmed subgroups of Colonial Era Virginia families, which Y-DNA testing has determined to be one closely related group. These six Winn families are as follows and underlined:

1.Minor Winn b.1704 Northern Neck, VA d.1789 m]1726 Northern Neck, VA to Margaret Connor b.1708 Ireland d. Fauquier, VA. They lived in Fauquier Co. VA; No idea who his parents are. They had issue: a.John Winn b.1727 m1]1758 Alexandria, VA to Dorothea Wright m2]1784 to Penelope Kirkland b.James Winn c.Col. William Winn b.1732 Warrenton, Fauquier, VA d.1813 Rock Hill Farm, Fauquier, VA

2.Daniel Winn b.1715 Prince George, VA d.1799 Lunenburg, VA m]1739 Sarah Virginia Tench; they lived Lunenburg Co. VA; brother to Col. Thomas Winn, Sr. (This Daniel Winn, Sr. is currently listed as a descendant of Robert Winn, Mayor of Canterbury, England but recent Winn surname DNA evaluation at FTDNA has determined that Daniel is not a descendant of Robert of Canterbury, a. Unknown daughter b.1740 b.Capt. Joseph Winn b.1739/1740 c.Martisha Winn b.1743 d.John Winn, Sr. b.1745 e.Thomas Winn b.1747 f.William Winn b.1751 g.Alexander Winn, Sr. b.1754 h.Orsamus Winn b.1755 i.James Francis Winn [Rev War] b.1757 j.Elisha Winn b.1758 k.Daniel Winn [Rev War] b.1760 l.Gallaneous Winn [Rev War] b.1760 m.Francis Winn b.1762

3.John Winn, Sr. b.1726 Prince George, VA m]1744 Anne Stone and lived Cumberland Parish, Lunenburg Co. VA; He was the son of Col. William Winn & Mary Frances Reade who settled in Danville, Pittsylvania, VA. This John Winn, Sr. is also currently listed as a descendant of Robert Winn, Mayor of Canterbury, England. (Note: Recent evaluations just as in all the Winn Surname K dna Subgroup suggests that he may not be a descendant of Robert of Canterbury, but from the Welsh Puleston lines) They had issue: a.Millender Winn b.1744 b.Col. John Winn, Jr b.1746 c.Peter Winn b.1752 d.Lucretia Winn b.1753 e.Elizabeth Winn b.1756 f.Mary Ann Winn b.1760 g.Littleberry Winn b.1761 h.Jane 'Jincy' Winn b.1765 i.Mourning Winn b.1767 j.Jerusha Winn b.1769 ----------------------------

4.Col. Thomas Winn, Sr. b.1714 d.1780 m1]1739 Elizabeth Bannister, Lunenburg Co. VA; He is an assumed brother to Daniel Winn #2; This Thomas Winn, Sr. is currently listed as a descendant of Robert Winn, Mayor of Canterbury, England. (Note: Recent dna Winn Surname evaluations at FTDNA suggest that he is not a descendant of Robert of Canterbury, but possibly from the Welsh Puleston lines) Issue from Elizabeth: a.John Winn b.1740 b.Thomas Winn b.1741 c.Elizabeth Winn b.1745 d.William Winn b.1748 e.Richard Winn b.1749 f.Bannister Winn b.1752 g.Mourning Winn b.1754 h.Henrietta Maria b.1757 -------------------

5.Richard V Winn** b.1672 Westmoreland, VA d.1748. (He is currently charted as the son of John Wynne b.1627 d.1694, and the grandson of Thomas V Wynne b.1595 Plas Mawr, Conwy, Caernarvonshire, Wales d.1627 ,Westmoreland, VA ) Richard Winn Married 1]Sarah Ann Cocke b.1675 d. Aft 1716 and they lived in Middlesex Co. VA 1696 -1716 as recorded in the parish register of Christ Church, Middlesex...issue: a.Mary Winn b.1696 Middlesex, VA b.Sarah Winn b.1698 Middlesex, VA c.Richard Winn b.1701 Middlesex, VA d.1748 m]1720 Phoebe Wilkes, widow of Joseph Pledger), Hanover, VA; d.Elizabeth Winn b.1703 Middlesex, VA e.Capt John Quarles Winn, Sr. b.1705 Middlesex, VA m]Susannah Irby & he died at Jessamine Lawn Plantation, Hanover Co. VA;

The addition of children and dates was added by Laura Layton and comes from several sources. This is meant for you to site your own sources by documenting the information. I've just given it as a hint of where to search.

Stephanie Miller is the administrator to the DNA group at FTDNA and should be consulted in regards to these proposed lines. She states that #2 Daniel Winn was a resident of Prince George Co. VA prior to moving to Lunenburg in 1755, and his paper trail had been linked to Robert Wynne, Mayor of Canterbury, ENG; however Robert Wynne of Canterbury has been determined to definitely be a separate, unrelated Y-DNA group. The Winn Dna matches of the K Subgroup (Daniel's group) and the M Subgroup (Robert of Canterbury) are not closely matched. Caution is advised in determining the exact ancestry of the Colonial Winn lines totally from DNA. The Winn from Puleston group and the Canterbury, England lines have a confirmed haplogroup of R-M269 > R-P312 > R-DF99 > R-BY3447

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/winn/about/news

NEW RESEARCH: DANIEL'S PARENTS may be Richard Winn and Phoebe of Hanover/Middlesex, Virginia This placement has been thoroughly researched and documented on the Genealogical blog called http://digupdeadrelatives.com/2017/12/24/y-dna-facts-colonial-virginia-winn-families/ Begin with the oldest Winn article and read forward. Pay particular attention to the part about certain named enslaved persons and how their ownership is transferred. (Gresham-1033)

Daniel's son was named Orsamus not Orasmus according to later recorded documents in Alabama.

Sources

Winn - Daniel & His Nine Sons, 2nd Edition, 2009, by Warner Martin Winn et al is currently out of print. Copies are available in repositories at Library of Virginia, Richmond VA, and LDS Family History Center, Salt Lake City UT. LUNENBURG COUNTY, VIRGINIA - "Sunlight on the Southside", 1776 Tythables; page 384

  • Find A Grave 146815888

[edi

  • See research on from blog Digging Up Dead Relatives and the DNA study at FTDNA.

Copy of Winn-455

As of 12 December 2021:

datafields:

  • Colonel Thomas Winn, born about 1716 in Virginia [uncertain]
  • Son of Richard Winn and Phoebe (Wilkes) Winn
  • Brother of Samuel Winn, Daniel Winn, John Winn, Phoebe Winn and Susanna Winn
  • Husband of Elizabeth (Bannister) Winn — married [date unknown] [location unknown]
  • Father of Henrietta Maria Winn, Thomas Winn, Richard Winn, Elizabeth Winn, William Winn, John Winn, Bannister Winn, Mourning Winn, Washington Winn and Edmund Winn
  • Died before 12 Apr 1781 in Lunenburg, Virginia, United States

Category:Hanover County, Virginia Colony Category:Lunenburg, Virginia Category:Lunenburg County, Virginia

Biography

Colonel Thomas Winn Patriarch born circa 1718, died bef 12 April 1781 when his will was probated. [1]

Col. Thomas was the most prominent of the three “senior” Winns. He was a son of Richard Winn of Hanover County, Virginia. Hanover Richard’s wife by at least 1733 was Phoebe Wilkes Pledger Winn, the widow of Mr. Pledger. She was a daughter of Joseph and Elizabeth Wilkes. I don’t know whether Col. Thomas was Phoebe’s child or the son of an earlier wife, or whether Hanover Richard even had a marriage prior to Phoebe.

I first found Col. Thomas mentioned in 1743 as “Page’s overseer” in Hanover County. He appeared in Lunenburg records for the first time in a 1746 deed executed when he was still residing in Hanover.

He lived a high-profile public life in Lunenburg. He was a surveyor of a road in his area and was appointed to take tax lists, both positions of trust in the community. In 1751, he was sworn as a justice of the Lunenburg county court with the honorific “gentleman.” In 1755, he was sworn a “Captain of Foot” of the Lunenburg militia. He was a wealthy landowner; by 1761, he had amassed over 3,500 acres. In 1765, a commission appointed him Colonel and he was recommended by the Governor as a “fit person to be added to the Commission of the Peace” for Lunenburg. In 1772, the Governor of Virginia appointed him county coroner. He was a vestryman of Cumberland Parish from 1766 through 1780. [1]

Marriage

Married Elizabeth Bannister

  • Thomas Winn 1740–1796
  • John Winn 1741–1768
  • Richard Winn 1743–1816
  • Mourning Winn 1745–1797 m. John Hix
  • Elizabeth Winn 1750–D. m. Joseph Winn, son of Daniel
  • Bannister Winn 1751–Deceased
  • William Winn 1753–Deceased

Married 2nd Sarah (possibly Bacon)

  • Keturah Winn 1756–1796 m. John Hardy
  • Henrietta Maria Winn 1757–1796 m. Edmund P. Bacon
  • Washington Winn 1758–1794
  • Edmund Wynne 1758–1825

Research Notes

Excerpt from Digging up Dead Relatives blog that contains extensive research with documented sources on Winns of early Virginia[1]

"The subjects are three Winns who were born in the first quarter of the 18th century and died in the last quarter in Lunenburg. Y-DNA establishes they were genetic relatives. Here they are:

1. Thomas Winn, the grantor in that baffling 1762 deed. Let’s call him Col. Thomas because he was a Lunenburg militia colonel. 2. Daniel Winn, the grantee in the 1762 deed. Daniel, bless his heart, has a reasonably unique name and doesn’t require a nickname to distinguish him from other men having the same name. Daniel and Col. Thomas were brothers. 3. John Winn of Lunenburg, as opposed to John Winn of Amelia. Amelia John was a brother of Col. Thomas and Daniel. Lunenburg John was not their brother, although Y-DNA testing proves a genetic relationship. The three patriarchs are also connected in many Lunenburg records. Lunenburg John is surely at least a distant cousin of Daniel and Col. Thomas, although I can’t figure out the family relationship. This begins by briefly discussing each patriarch and identifying their children. That is also where it ends, because the three men had thirty-one children among them. Information about grandchildren is therefore limited, so far. In fact, I now find this article is so long that I must break it up into two and perhaps three or more parts….

… this Part I, about the persistent Winn error and Col. Thomas Winn. "[1]

  • See Winn Surname Project at Family Tree DNA news
  • DNA results at the Winn Surname Project at FTDNA have grouped the Wynne/Winn lines into SubGroups. The largest group Winn from Puleston Group is a Welsh-origin group containing six confirmed subgroups of Colonial Era Virginia families, which Y-DNA testing has determined to be one group sharing a common paternal Winn/Wynn ancestor in Wales.
  • Winn Surname Project at Family Tree DNA news from Stephanie and not copyrighted.
  • We have two YDNA groups with origins in Wales identified. We want to find participants still living in Wales to join and participate. The hope is that we will identify a group or groups who have a connection to the groups we have identified in USA...
  • Y-DNA Group K. The Winn from Puleston Group is a Welsh-origin group. It is the largest group in Winn Surname Project. Within this group there are six confirmed subgroups of Colonial Era Virginia families, which Y-DNA testing has determined to be one group sharing a common paternal Winn/Wynn ancestor in Wales.
  • In this group, the immigrant ancestors from Wales are thought to be Thomas, Robert, and John Wynn, sons of Gruffydd Wynn of Trefechen, Denbighshire, descendant of a Wynn paternal line stemming from Madog Puleston....if you have a tree that you've linked back to Robert Wynne, Mayor of Canterbury, you must disconnect those generations from your tree because Robert Wynne, Mayor of Canterbury, is an entirely different YDNA Group.
  • The YDNA results between Group K and Group M do not match, and the haplogroups do NOT match. Project co-administrator, Stephanie Winn Miller, is contact for the Winn/Puleston group at Family Tree DNA https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/winn/about/news

Within the proposed Winn/Puleston group there are six confirmed subgroups of Colonial Era Virginia families, which Y-DNA testing has determined to be one closely related group. These six Winn families are as follows:

1. Minor Winn b.1704 Northern Neck, VA d.1789 m]1726 Northern Neck, VA to Margaret Connor b.1708 Ireland d. Fauquier, VA. They lived in Fauquier Co. VA; No idea who his parents are. They had issue: a.John Winn b.1727 m1]1758 Alexandria, VA to Dorothea Wright m2]1784 to Penelope Kirkland b.James Winn c.Col. William Winn b.1732 Warrenton, Fauquier, VA d.1813 Rock Hill Farm, Fauquier, VA

2. Daniel Winn b.1715 Prince George, VA d.1799 Lunenburg, VA m]1739 Sarah Virginia Tench; they lived Lunenburg Co. VA; brother to Col. Thomas Winn, Sr. (This Daniel Winn, Sr. is currently listed as a descendant of Robert Winn, Mayor of Canterbury, England but recent Winn surname DNA evaluation at FTDNA has determined that Daniel is not a descendant of Robert of Canterbury, a. Unknown daughter b.1740 b.Capt. Joseph Winn b.1739/1740 c.Martisha Winn b.1743 d.John Winn, Sr. b.1745 e.Thomas Winn b.1747 f.William Winn b.1751 g.Alexander Winn, Sr. b.1754 h.Orsamus Winn b.1755 i.James Francis Winn [Rev War] b.1757 j.Elisha Winn b.1758 k.Daniel Winn [Rev War] b.1760 l.Gallaneous Winn [Rev War] b.1760 m.Francis Winn b.1762

3. John Winn, Sr. b.1726 Prince George, VA m1744 Anne Stone and lived Cumberland Parish, Lunenburg Co. VA; He was the son of Col. William Winn & Mary Frances Reade who settled in Danville, Pittsylvania, VA. This John Winn, Sr. is also currently listed as a descendant of Robert Winn, Mayor of Canterbury, England. (Note: Recent evaluations just as in all the Winn Surname K dna Subgroup suggests that he may not be a descendant of Robert of Canterbury, but from the Welsh Puleston lines) They had issue: a.Millender Winn b.1744 b.Col. John Winn, Jr b.1746 c.Peter Winn b.1752 d.Lucretia Winn b.1753 e.Elizabeth Winn b.1756 f.Mary Ann Winn b.1760 g.Littleberry Winn b.1761 h.Jane 'Jincy' Winn b.1765 i.Mourning Winn b.1767 j.Jerusha Winn b.1769. He also has a descendant named Minor which might point to John Winn and Elizabeth Minor as progenitors.

4. Col. Thomas Winn, Sr. b.1714 d.1780 m1]1739 Elizabeth Bannister, Lunenburg Co. VA; He is an assumed brother to Daniel Winn #2; This Thomas Winn, Sr. is currently listed as a descendant of Robert Winn, Mayor of Canterbury, England. (Note: Recent dna Winn Surname evaluations at FTDNA suggest that he is not a descendant of Robert of Canterbury, but possibly from the Welsh Puleston lines) Issue from Elizabeth: a.John Winn b.1740 b.Thomas Winn b.1741 c.Elizabeth Winn b.1745 d.William Winn b.1748 e.Richard Winn b.1749 f.Bannister Winn b.1752 g.Mourning Winn b.1754 h.Henrietta Maria b.1757

5. Richard V Winn** b.1672 Westmoreland, VA d.1748. (He is currently charted as the son of John Wynne b.1627 d.1694, and the grandson of Thomas V Wynne b.1595 Plas Mawr, Conwy, Caernarvonshire, Wales d.1627 ,Westmoreland, VA ) Richard Winn Married 1]Sarah Ann Cocke b.1675 d. Aft 1716 and they lived in Middlesex Co. VA 1696 -1716 as recorded in the parish register of Christ Church, Middlesex...issue: a.Mary Winn b.1696 Middlesex, VA b.Sarah Winn b.1698 Middlesex, VA c.Richard Winn b.1701 Middlesex, VA d.1748 m]1720 Phoebe Wilkes, widow of Joseph Pledger), Hanover, VA; d.Elizabeth Winn b.1703 Middlesex, VA e.Capt John Quarles Winn, Sr. b.1705 Middlesex, VA m]Susannah Irby & he died at Jessamine Lawn Plantation, Hanover Co. VA;

Tag: Col. Thomas Winn
This appears to be a well researched and documented site with many articles on the Winns of Virginia by Gary Noble Willis & Robin Rankin Willis, a pair of serious amateur genealogists who loosely follow the Chicago Style for citations supporting their assertions of fact. This article has hyperlinks to other articles spotlighting Col Thomas Winn.

Sources

  1. ↑ 1.0 1.1 1.2 1.3 All documented Sources listed at http://digupdeadrelatives.com/2021/10/15/lunenburg-winns-part-i-of/

Acknowledgements

Bannisters

A comment posted on Wynne-390 by Mary Gresham posted Apr 14, 2020:

"There is a big discrepancy on these Thomas Wynnes. There is a Col Thomas Winn b. 1716 d. 1780 Winn-455 with wife Elizabeth Bannister. His parents are Richard and Phoebe Wilkes Winn. Research by Robin Willis, descendant of Daniel Winn on her blog "Digging up Dead Relatives" gives convincing evidence with sources that Col. Thomas Winn d. 1780 married Elizabeth Bannister and was the son of Richard and Phoebe not Thomas Winn. There are two Elizabeth Bannisters married to two different Thomas Wynne/Winns. Bannister-138 & Bannister-4. The other Thomas Wynne married to Elizabeth Bannister is Wynne-390...."

Copy of Bannister-4

as of 12 December 2021
datafields:
  • Elizabeth Winn formerly Bannister, born about 1722 in Lunenburg, Colony of Virginia
  • [no profiles for parents or siblings attached]
  • Wife of Thomas Wynne — married [date unknown] in Lunenburg County, Virginia
  • Wife of Thomas Winn — married [date unknown] [location unknown]
  • Mother of Henrietta Maria Winn, Thomas Winn, Richard Winn, Elizabeth Winn, William Winn, John Winn, Bannister Winn, Mourning Winn, Washington Winn and Edmund Winn
  • Died about 1822 in Lunenburg, Virginia, United States

Biography

  • Please see lengthy biography for Thomas Winn (Winn-455) which discusses the FTDNA Winn DNA Surname Group that prove his descendant's DNA match descendants of Richard Winn and Phoebe Wilkes. Thomas and Elizabeth Bannisters descendants also match the descendants of Daniel Winn who is considered to be his brother.
  • Thomas Wynne (Wynne-390) has been proven to not be from the Wynne royal line back to England. See link to the DNA studies at FTDNA link.
  • See Winn Surname Project at Family Tree DNA news

YTDNA is a pay-to-play web site with excellent staffing and resources. DNA results at the Winn Surname Project at FTDNA have grouped the Wynne/Winn lines into SubGroups. The largest group Winn from Puleston Group is a Welsh-origin group containing six confirmed subgroups of Colonial Era Virginia families, which Y-DNA testing has determined to be one group sharing a common paternal Winn/Wynn ancestor in Wales. Genealogical Blog Digging Up Dead Relatives: -- Legends, Outright Lies, and Useful Facts About Our Ancestors Tag: Col. Thomas Winn This appears to be a well researched and documented site with many articles on the Winns of Virginia by Gary Noble Willis & Robin Rankin Willis, a pair of serious amateur genealogists who loosely follow the Chicago Style for citations supporting their assertions of fact. This article has hyperlinks to other articles spotlighting Col Thomas Winn.

SOURCE Ancestry World Tree Project Marriage Thomas Wynne (1699-1780) Fact Details Lunenburg, Lunenburg, Virginia, United States Spouse Elizabeth Bannister 1720–

Note: some researchers believe that Elizabeth Bannister and Sarah Elizabeth Bannister are the same person.

Biography

FamilySearch ID: L63L-GKK[2]

Name

Elizabeth Bannister[3]

Birth

1722 in Lunenburg Co, Virginia

Death

11 September 1820 in Lunenburg Co, Virginia, United States

Burial

unknown

Marriage

Married Thomas Wynne .ca 1740 in Lunenburg Co, Virginia
Issue:
Thomas Winn[4] 1740–1796 • MM9G-THQ
John Winn 1741–1768 • LX97-JWC
Richard Winn 1743–1816 • LHCC-RZD
Mourning Winn 1745–1797 • LX97-J6H
Elizabeth Winn 1750–Deceased • LX97-V7B
Bannister Winn 1751–Deceased • 9466-2RR
William Winn 1753–Deceased • LX97-V8J

References

Sources

  1. ↑ 1.0 1.1 1.2 1.3 All documented Sources listed at http://digupdeadrelatives.com/2021/10/15/lunenburg-winns-part-i-of/
  2. ↑ Source: #S1 FamilySearch Family Tree
  3. ↑ Source: #ENBC England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
  4. ↑ Source: #ENBC England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975


  • Repository: R01 Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 1300 West Traverse Parkway, Lehi, UT, USA 84043; Ph: 801-705-7000
  • Repository: R02 FamilySearch.org, Intellectual Reserve, Inc (IRI); Location: 50 East North Temple Street, Salt Lake City, UT 84150-0018
  • Source: ENBC <i>England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975<i>, database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NYN6-W1S : 11 February 2018, Elizabeth in entry for Thomas Wynn, 27 Feb 1740); citing , index based upon data collected by the Genealogical Society of Utah, Salt Lake City; FHL microfilm 380,206, 380,207

Acknowledgements

  • WikiTree profile Bannister-138 created through the import of The Tuter and Bunch Families_family line_2012-08-23_01.ged on Aug 23, 2012 by Rick Tuter. See the Changes page for the details of edits by Rick and others.




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