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Noland-165 Wales Work

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Copy of ferch Llywelyn-18... victim of a bad merge (or more than one). Developed as a hybrid. Coming clearer now that the only source for a given name of the grandmother of Dafydd Gam is "Ales", who is, apparently, the daughter of Llywelyn ap Hywel Hên, while Gwerful - apparently not the wife of Hywel Fychan nor the mother of Dafydd Gam's father Llywelyn - is said to be the daughter of "Llywelyn ab Hywel Felyn ap Gruffudd ap Rhys ap Gruffudd". BUT the only Gwerfuls who sound anything like the woman described was born a century or more earlier.

This page preserves (for now) the state of the profile for ferch Llywelyn-18 as of 8 pm (Eastern Time), 21 May 2023, before work on "deconflating" the profile for the grandmother of Dafydd Gam begins. ~ Noland-165 23:49, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Gwerful ferch Llywelyn (abt.1315-1406)

Contents

Vitals

Born about 1315 [uncertain] in Castell Madog, Llnfhngl Fchn, Breconshire, Wales

Daughter of Llywelyn (Hywel) ap Hywel and [mother?]

Sister of Catrin ferch Llewellyn

Wife of Hywel (ap Hywel) ap Hywel ap Einion — married [marriage date?] [marriage location?]

Mother of Llewelyn ap Hywel Fychan and Gwenllian (Howel) gwraig Gwilym ap Jenkin

Died 1406 at about age 91 in England

Biography

"Howell ychan ab Hoell ab Eynon Sais" married "one of ye do and heires" of "Llenñ [Llewellyn] ab Hoell hen".[1]

Hywel was the grandson of Einion Sais and grandfather of Dafydd Gam.[2]

Their son Llenñ (Llewelyn) married Mallt, daughter and heiress of Ieuan ap Rees ap Ieuan Ifor.[1]

Research Notes

Birth: Castell, Breconshire, Wales[3][citation needed]
Estimated Date: c1315, based on birth year of c1330 listed for their son Llywelyn on his profile (as of 21 May 2023). For first marriages in Wales at the time, the bride would have been about half the age of her husband, as women were expected to marry and start a family quite young by today's standards and the men did not marry until they were established. See Darrell Wolcott's article, "Generational Gaps and the Welsh Laws".[4] Previously, the profile had birth c1302[3] and 1306 in the text, with a death date of 1406 (which it still has, as of 21 May 2023, although most women in this time/place would be dead long before reaching the age of 91).

Names: Her "Last Name at Birth" was changed to "ferch Llywelyn"[5] and removed other names from namefields, except for Gwerful (although no source for it).

The many names may have evolved through merges.[6] The following names were in the name fields prior to 20 May 2023.

Proper First Name: Gwerful [uncertain]
  • "Gwerful verch Leuan"[7]
Preferred First Name: Alice[8][9] [uncertain]
  • Alice ferch Llywelyn ap Hywel Hên ap Cadwgon ap Trahaearn[10]
Last Name at Birth: Llewelyn[6]
  • her father's given name[11]
Current Last Name: Lleun
  • Maybe a misspelling of "Leun" (old French for lion). The name is said to be of "Judeo-Anglo-Norman" origin, "a cognate of Leon".[12]
  • perhaps a misspelling of "Leuan", which was probably meant as "Ieuan"[13] - "Gwerful verch Leuan"[7]
Other Last Name: Llanñ
  • Apparently from the Visitations of Wales - from profile's text (prior to 20 May 2023): Hywel "married daughter and heiress of Llenñ (aka Llewellyn)..."[1]

Daughter

The profile for Gwenllian, wife of Gwilym ap Jenkin, attached as their daughter (as of 20 May 2023) does not appear to be their daughter. This Gwerful ferch Llywelyn ab Hywel Felyn ap Gruffudd ap Rhys ap Gruffudd (born after c1315) is the wife of Hywel ap Hywel ab Einion Sais. So is Alice ferch Llywelyn ap Hywel Hên ap Cadwgon ap Trahaearn.[14]
  • Gwenllian was the daughter of Hywel Fychan ap Hywel ab Iowerth Fychan ab Iowerthy ap Gwarin of Llan-ffwyst ap Caradog ab Ynyr Fychan ap Meurig ab Ynyr Gwent.[15] She was born after 1300 and was "of, Llan-ffwyst, Monmouthshire, Wales."[16]
Also, the text on the profile for Gwenllian says that she was a sole heir, yet according to the profiles for Hywel ap Hywel ab Einion Sais and his son Llywelyn, his son outlived him (and so would have been heir or at least co-heir). From the text on her profile (as of 21 May 2023):
  • Gwenllian was daughter and sole heir of Howel Vychan ap Howel ap Ioworth of Cerf-Y-Ddwy-Gwlyd, of Monmouth, a direct descendant of the early Welsh kings of Monmouth and Glamorgan.[citation needed]
Although the source cited is unreliable, Marlyn Lewis's database entry for Gwenllian[17] does not have Gwerful (or Ales) and Hywell Fychan as her parents:
  • The mother of Gwenllian ferch Hywel "Felyn" ap Gruffudd was Sarah le Sore[1] b. c 1170.[17]
  • Gwenllian was born circa 1190 at of Senghennydd Cantref, Glamorganshire, Wales, England.[1][17]
  • She married Dafydd ap Rhys, son of Rhys ap Hywel and Catrin ferch Gruffudd, circa 1209 at England.[1][17]
  • She and Dafydd ap Rhys (b. c 1190)[17] had the following children:
    • Gwenllian ferch Dafydd b. c 1210[17]
    • Hywel ap Dafydd b. c 1230[17]

Attached Profiles

Her family, according to WikiTree as of 20 May 2023:
The Visitations of Wales gives her husband's lineage, with her as an unnamed daughter of "Llenñ ab Hoell hen", and their son: "Llenñ ab Howell Esge mared Mallt do and one of ye heires of leuñ ab Rees ab leuñ Ivor of Elvell[4] Esge".[1]
[4] In Radnorshire.[1]
The son of Llywelyn (Llenñ ab Howell in the Visitations ) was Dafydd "Gam" (abt.1351-1415) of Agincourt fame.
Another pedigree in the Visitations appears to name the wife of Hywel, father of Dafydd, as Alice:[18]
Etifeddes gwraig Dd ab Hoell ichan oedd Yngharad vh Rs Lloid ab Robert Grh ab Dd Holl [Hoell] y Vwell ab Grh ab Ednyved lichan o Wynedd.[6]
Etifeddes gwraig Hoell ichan oedd Ales vh Llnñ ab Hoell hen o'r Kwmwd.[7]
Etifeddes gwraig Hoell ab Eigno Sais oedd Lettis vh Kadwalader ab Grh ab Kadwalader Seisyllt ab Dyfnwall arglwydd Gwent.
Etifeddes gwraig Eignon Sais ab Rs ab Hoell ab Trahaern ab Gwgan ab Blegwryd ab Bleddyn ab Maenarch oedd un ferch.
[6] North Wales.
[7] In Brecknockshire.
Still trying to figure out the given name of Hywel's wife/mother of Llywelyn/grandmother of Dafydd Gam. Not sure where Gwerful came from, but found "Ales" [Alice] in the Visitations, page 46, as just noted: "Ales vh Llnñ ab Hoell hen o'r KwmwdIn [in Brecknockshire]."[18] This matches with the mention on page 57, that says the wife of Hywell was "one of ye do and heires of Llenñ ab Hoell hen".[1]

Not Her?

This profile is attached as the daughter of Llywellyn ab Hywel Felyn ap Gruffudd ap Rhys ap Gruffudd.[19] The Visitations of Wales says the wife of Hywell was "one of ye do and heires of Llenñ ab Hoell hen".[1]
WikiTree gave a "Hint" of a possible mother for Llywelyn, based on wikidata's page for "Alice ferch Llywelyn ap Hywel Hên ap Cadwgon ap Trahaearn",[10] which diverges from Gwerful's ancestry as connected in WikiTree.
It seems that the sole source for the wikidata page is the Genealogics entry for Alice ferch Llywelyn ap Hywel Hên (no dates), which lists her father as "Llywelyn ap Hywel Hên ap Cadwgan ap Trahaearn o'r Cwmwd (no dates)" but has the disconcerting note: "may be NN ferch Dafydd Llwyd ap Cadwaladyr of Abergavenny".[14] The Genealogics entry for her father cites Bartrum's Trahaearn Fawr 11 & Boyer for his name.[20]
Her husband is shown in Genealogics as "Hywel Fychan ap Hywel ab Einion Sais ap Rhys"[14] (wikidata didn't list a husband).[10] Genealogics has his 2nd wife as "NN ferch Dafydd Llwyd ap Cadwaladyr" (recall that Genealogics suggested maybe Alice was that NN daughter).[21]
The wikidata page, citing Genealogics, lists six children,[10] omitting the first child listed by Genealogics[14] (wikidata also has them listed in a different order; the following list is from Genealogics):
  1. NN ferch Hywel Fychan ap Hywel ab Einion Sais[14]
  2. Gwenllian ferch Hywel Fychan ap Hywel ab Einion[14]
  3. Ieuan ap Hywel Fychan ap Hywel ab Einion Sais[14]
  4. Llywelyn ap Hywel Fychan ap Hywel ab Einion Sais[14]
  5. Gwilym ap Hywel Fychan ap Hywel[14]
  6. Elsbeth ferch Hywel Fychan ap Hywel ab Einion Sais[14]
  7. Dafydd ap Hywel Fychan ap Hywel ab Einion Sais of Parc Letis[14]
Checking wikidata and Genealogics entries for the children (looking for sources):
  1. NN married Dafydd Fychan ap Dafydd Rhingyll Ddû ap Gronwy Foel ap Robert, citing Bartrum's Bleddyn ap Maenrych 17[22]
  2. Gwenllian married Gruffudd ab Iorwerth ap Dafydd 'y Hen' ap Gronwy of Burton, citing Archaeologia Cambrensis, s4 v7-1 [1876] 22 (and with the note: "probable parents").[23]
  3. Ieuan (no wife named)[24]
  4. Llywelyn married Mawd ferch Ieuan ap Rhys ab Ifor Gôch of Glangwy[25]
  5. Gwilym (no wife named)[26]
  6. Elsbeth married Iorwerth ap Gronwy ap Dafydd ap Seisyll of Pont-glas[27]
  7. Dafydd married twice:[28]
    1. Elsbeth ferch Dafydd Fychan ap Dafydd Rhingyll Ddû[28]
    2. Angharad (2) ferch Rhys ap Robert ap Gruffudd[28]

Dates

Estimating dates for medieval Welsh families is a challenge, since many sources do not give a date at all. For example, looking at the family given for Alice (see "Not Her", above), wikidata gives a 1330 birth date for her son Llywelyn (citing his WikiTree profile) but no other dates.[29] The first date found in Genealogics is for her grandson, Dafydd Gam (by Llywelyn), who was born in 1351.[30] This is apparently the basis for her son Llywelyn's birth, c1330, although he may have been older than 21 when he married (and his wife would have probably been 14, give or take a year).[4]

Sources

  1. ↑ 1.0 1.1 1.2 1.3 1.4 1.5 1.6 Llyfr Achau Heraldic visitations of Wales and part of the Marches; between the years 1586 and 1613, pp. 56-7 (1846). See the bottom of the first left-hand column on page 57 (accessed 21 May 2023).
  2. ↑ "Dafydd Gam ap Llywelyn ap Hywel Fychan ap Hywel ap Einion Sais, per the Wikipedia article for Dafydd Gam (accessed 29 April 2021) - information copied from her husband's profile 20 May 2023.
  3. ↑ 3.0 3.1 Heritage Consulting, Millennium File. Birth date: 1302 (but also cited as source for a birth year of 1306). From an Ancestry Family Tree for "Alice Verch /Llewelyn/": http://trees.ancestry.com/pt/AMTCitationRedir.aspx?tid=13078823&pid=472793907
  4. ↑ 4.0 4.1 Darrell Wolcott, "Generational Gaps and the Welsh Laws" (accessed 21 May 2023).
  5. ↑ For an explanation of why her last name at birth was changed to "ferch Llywelyn", see this Project page for "ferch" (about Welsh patronymics) and this page for spelling of Llywelyn (which shows other spellings as variations).
  6. ↑ 6.0 6.1 Previous profiles included Llewelyn-25 & Llewelyn-30. Originally created as Verch Leuan-1 on 5 Sep 13 by Richard Ragland (see this Changes page).
  7. ↑ 7.0 7.1 Entered by Richard Ragland, Thursday, September 5, 2013.
  8. ↑ Hamilton, Rosanna, comp. British Chancery Records, 1386-1558 (Ancestry Online Publication : 2004). Original data: "Lists of Early Chancery Proceedings. Public Record Office Lists and Indexes Volumes. APID 7919::216818: http://trees.ancestry.com/rd?f=sse&db=britchancery_ga&h=216818&ti=0&indiv=try&gss=pt (for "Alice Verch /LLEWELYN/").
  9. ↑ Ancestry Family Trees (Family Tree files submitted by Ancestry members): http://trees.ancestry.com/pt/AMTCitationRedir.aspx?tid=9639887&pid=647952324 (for "Alice Verch /LLEWELYN/").
  10. ↑ 10.0 10.1 10.2 10.3 Wikidata: Item Q99080690 help.gif for Alice ferch Llywelyn (accessed 21 May 2023).
  11. ↑ According to WikiTree as of 20 May 2023, per the profile attached as her father - Hywel-54 - which spells his given name "Llywelyn".
  12. ↑ Behind the Name: Leun (accessed 20 May 2023).
  13. ↑ Behind the Name: Ieuan (accessed 20 May 2023).
  14. ↑ 14.00 14.01 14.02 14.03 14.04 14.05 14.06 14.07 14.08 14.09 14.10 Genealogics: Alice ferch Llywelyn ap Hywel Hên entry (no sources, accessed 21 May 2023).
  15. ↑ Carl Boyer, 3rd. Medieval Welsh Ancestors of Certain Americans (Santa Clarita, CA: n.p., 2004). Page 167.
  16. ↑ From the profile text of Gwenllian (Howel) gwraig Gwilym ap Jenkin (abt.1340-1440), as of 21 May 2023.
  17. ↑ 17.0 17.1 17.2 17.3 17.4 17.5 17.6 ORTNACA: Gwenllian ferch Hywel "Felyn" (one source citation: [1] "Unknown author, Family Group Sheets, Family History Archives, SLC.", accessed 21 May 2023)
  18. ↑ 18.0 18.1 Park Lettis Heraldic visitations of Wales and part of the Marches; between the years 1586 and 1613 under the authority of Clarencieux and Norroy, two kings at arms, p.46 (1846), retrieved 2014-05-19, amb
  19. ↑ Per WikiTree connections as of 21 May 2023.
  20. ↑ Genealogics: Llywelyn ap Hywel Hên ap Cadwgan ap Trahaearn o'r Cwmwd (accessed 21 May 2023).
  21. ↑ Genealogics: Hywel Fychan ap Hywel ab Einion Sais ap Rhys, citing Bartrum's Bleddyn ap Maenyrch 17 and Boyer (accessed 21 May 2023).
  22. ↑ Genealogics: NN ferch Hywel Fychan (accessed 21 May 2023).
  23. ↑ Genealogics: Gwenllian ferch Hywel Fychan ap Hywel ab Einion (accessed 21 May 2023).
  24. ↑ Genealogics: Ieuan ap Hywel Fychan ap Hywel ab Einion Sais, citing Bartrum's Bleddyn ap Maenyrch 17 (accessed 21 May 2023).
  25. ↑ Genealogics: Llywelyn ap Hywel Fychan ap Hywel ab Einion Sais, citing Bartrum's Bleddyn ap Maenyrch 18, Boyer, and "The Wallop Family and Their Ancestry 1928 , Watney, Vernon James." (accessed 21 May 2023).
  26. ↑ Genealogics: Gwilym ap Hywel Fychan ap Hywel (accessed 21 May 2023).
  27. ↑ Genealogics: Elsbeth ferch Hywel Fychan ap Hywel ab Einion Sais, citing Bartrum's Wynston 2; Bleddyn ap Maenrych 17 (accessed 21 May 2023).
  28. ↑ 28.0 28.1 28.2 Genealogics: Dafydd ap Hywel Fychan ap Hywel ab Einion Sais of Parc Letis, citing Bleddyn ap Maenyrch 22 (accessed 21 May 2023).
  29. ↑ Wikidata: Item Q99080671 help.gif for Llywelyn ap Hywel (accessed 21 May 2023).
  30. ↑ Genealogics: Sir David 'Gam' (accessed 21 May 2023), citing Bartrum's Bleddyn ap Maenrych 20 and several reliable sources: Complete Peerage, 10:400; Oxford Dictionary of National Biography; and Dictionary of Welsh Biography. Note that Bartrum has just a death year (1415) for Dafydd Gam, citing DWB.






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