Surnames/tags: Palatine_Migration German_Roots
Categories: Palatine Migration Project.
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This is just intended to be a space where folks can communicate about our project. With Privacy set at Open, anyone can join the conversation.
Just a recommendation - but possibly we could use the "messages" on the right hand side for general announcements and for introducing new topics for discussion. And then any followup discussion could take place here in the space pages text.
I have added all active project members as profile managers, so announcements at the right should show up in our email feeds, while comments in this feed should show up in our activity feeds.
Palatines from Ireland to Canada?
WikiTree member P Shunk asks: Just wondering about the Palatines from Ireland to Canada? Were they first Germans who migrated to Ireland?
Yes, the Irish Palatines were German families that were settled there by the British at the same time that others were settled in the American colonies, particularly New York. These original migrants to Ireland are within the scope of this project.
However, the Irish Palatines to Canada were part of a later migration and are outside the scope of our project. - Dave Rutherford
- im not familiar with the Irish Palatines to Canada, so this may or may not be relevant...
- The first wave of Palatine refugees were supposed to be settled in England and Ireland, but the numbers overwhelmed the ability of Britain to accommodate them, so many were sent on to North America instead. I think some of the people who were initially settled in England and Ireland also went to North America. Many of those early Palatine migrants went through a multi-year migration, first to Rotterdam, where they waited months to go to England; then to England and Ireland; and then to North America.
- There are immigrants to Canada in the mid-1700s who were identified as Palatines and would be part of this project. - Ellen Smith
I was not aware of any Palatines who came directly to Canada. At the time of the first wave in the very early 1700's, Canada was French and not open to settlement by the Palatines.
There may be a few of the German immigrants who came over after the first wave, and joined in the American Revolution on the Royal side, and subsequently migrated to Canada as Loyalists.
But any Irish Palatines would have been settled in Ireland by 1710 and Canada was not British until the 1760's and not really open for settlement until after the American Revolution. So any Irish Palatines who made it to Canada would have been descendants of the original Irish Palatines. My 3X great grandmother Barbara (Young) Bowles was from the Palatine road in Tipperary. She came to Canada in the 1820's but is outside the scope of our project as she is at least 3rd or 4th generation Irish Palatine, not one of the original settlers there. She wasn't born until 1776. - Dave Rutherford
Interesting about your Irish Palatine ancestor -- and her origin on the Palatine road in Tipperary, Dave!
Some time ago I ran across a compilation of passenger lists for Palatine ships arriving in Nova Scotia (I think they arrived in Lunenburg) around 1749-1752. Links to the material I found are compiled on the page Space:Palatine Ships to Nova Scotia. That material (which I didn't investigate much) is the source of my information about Palatines arriving in Canada in that time period. It wasn't Canada yet, of course, but Nova Scotia was later to become part of Canada. - Smith-62120 02:31, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
Nice catch Ellen!
I was not aware of these folks, but yes they definitely would qualify for our project & Nova Scotia is definitely Canada! You caught me being Ontario-centric. Showing some of the gaps of my knowledge of early Maritime history.
It still holds that the Irish Palatines that came later would not be part of the project though. - Rutherford-448 18:01, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
See Category: Germanna Colonies in Virginia. I propose that the project scope be revised to explicitly exclude these settlements in Virginia, as they seem be distinct from Palatine migrations. -- Ellen, 9 February 2017
OK Ellen. I am not sure where to add this. I see that the Germanna page is already linked under a "WikiTree Links" heading. Don't know if it should be mentioned there, or if the link and accompanying comment should be placed at the top under "Palatine Migration Project". Do whatever you think is best. -- Dave, 9 February 2017
For the most part, these colonies can be kept separate from Palatine migrants, since the colonies were apparently the destination for the emigrants who first settled there. However, I found that some immigrants arrived in Philadelphia, settled in Pennsylvania, then later moved to the Germanna colonies, so I guess there will be some people who fit in both categories. I edited the Palatine Migrants category description to explain that. -- Ellen, 13 February 2017
Overlap with "Swiss-German and Mennonite Immigrants to Pennsylvania"?
Category:Swiss-German and Mennonite Immigrants to Pennsylvania contains people who may (with my limited imagination, anyway) be indistinguishable from Palatine migrants -- they arrived after 1709 (and often a good bit later) and I don't believe they were all attracted to William Penn's lands (nor Mennonites). Is there a good basis for demarcating a scope boundary between these subprojects, or do we need to treat this as an area of overlap to be discussed with the other project? -- Ellen, 23 January 2017
Yes, it looks like a clear overlap. But is this page really a sub-project? It calls itself this, but I think it is only a category. It is impossible to track activity on the "project" and find out if anyone is even active with it right now. And the William Penn project, of which it is supposed to be a sub-project, defines itself rather narrowly as dealing with 23 ships in 1681 and 1682. So, perhaps those that didn't contract with and settle on Penn's grants should be part of our project. This category looks like it was set up with fairly narrow parameters, but soon became a catch-all destination for anything German & Pennsylvania. -- Dave, 24 January 2017
- Further examination of the history of that category and some of the profiles in that category leads me to think that there might be some misconceptions and confusion surrounding that category, but there also are some distinctions to be drawn between Palatines and other groups. The earliest settlers of Lancaster County do appear to have been Mennonites who arrived in the decade of the 1710s, and other Anabaptists followed, but Palatines also started arriving in Pennsylvania not long after the Mennonites. And us modern people can have difficulty identifying our ancestors' religions. I found one German immigrant identified on his WikiTree profile as a Quaker, apparently because he was a member of a [German] Reformed congregation; that may indicate a misunderstanding of the terminology of Protestant denominations. There also were some Huguenots settling in Pennsylvania in that same time period, including some who had been living in Germany or Alsace (and speaking German, apparently) for some time before emigrating. -- Ellen, 24 January 2017
- Further to the above, this webpage presents a lightweight capsule summary of Pennsylvania German immigration that seems consistent with what I've read elsewhere. That page (which I've lightly supplemented with info from other sources) indicates that beginning in 1683 and until before 1710, Germans arrived in direct or indirect response to invitation from William Penn. In 1710, Swiss Mennonites began to arrive, and Hans Herr and Martin Kündig took out a patent for ten thousand acres of land on Pequea Creek, Conestogoe (subsequently Lancaster county, organized 1729). The page doesn't indicate how long the influx of Swiss Mennonites continued. 1723 was the year when Palatines from New York removed to the Tulpehocken Valley, and members of the Kocherthal party (Palatines) had arrived in Pennsylvania earlier. Systematic recording of passenger lists from German ships arriving at Philadelphia (typically identified as "Palatines") began in 1727. Interestingly, sources identify several members of the Kocherthal party as Huguenots.
- It seems to me that (1) we need to consult with the leadership of the William Penn project regarding their project scope and interfaces with this project, (2) it probably would make sense to offer to take the Swiss Mennonites of 1710 under the umbrella of this subproject, since their time and geography closely overlap with the time and geography of the first Palatine migrants, and (3) we might need to have special subcategories for Mennonites, other Anabaptists, and Palatine Huguenots as subcomponents of this subproject. -- Ellen, 24 January 2017
- Here's an example of a profile that's currently in the William Penn project and that might possibly fit this project, but probably doesn't. It doesn't fit the William Penn project's defined pre-1700 chronological scope, but there's some indication the father visited Philadelphia before 1700 and the family went to Philadelphia before the Palatine migration began. -- Ellen, 13 February 2017
Kelly Dazet is asking whether the Germans who migrated to the east should be part of the project. They were known as the Donauschwabens or Danube-Swabians. Doing a quick check online I found the following articles:
Perhaps the biggest thing that struck me about this eastward migration was the lengthy time period involved, from c.1683 right up to the Napoleonic era. This is a longer stretch of time than we have envisaged for our project, although much of the migration did take place in the same time frame. My own two cents - I think it should probably be a separate sub-project under German Roots. But - open for discussion....
- I agree that the Donauschwaben would be more effectively treated as a separate subproject. The time period does coincide with the Palatine Migration, but the destination of emigration was different, and subsequent history is very different. I think both the Palatine and Donauschwabe immigrant groups would be better served by their own focused subprojects. -- Ellen, 23 Jan 2017
It turns out that there is a sub-project of German Roots already proposed for the Donauschwaben, with Rose Nunez as coordinator. It is listed under "Current Sub-Projects" here: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Project:German_Roots There is an associated category which already has 65 profiles attached to it: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Donauschwaben I will let Kelly know. -- Dave, 25 Jan 2017
Jenny asks an interesting question regarding the Hessian soldiers who fought as mercenaries on the British side in the American Revolution. Until seeing her question and researching the subject, i didn't realize that many of them stayed in America. (There were Hessian soldiers hired to fight in other wars in other places, but not much indication that they stayed behind in the places where they served.) Here are a few Internet links for information that I read in my quick research:
Reasons in favor of including Hessians in this project include:
- They were Germans, from essentially the same regions that Palatine immigrants came from.
- They also arrived in the 18th century.
- At least some of the Hessians who stayed in America had been prisoners of war in German communities in America during their military service and had blended into a local population that probably had a large component of Palatine immigrants.
- It may be hard to tell Hessians apart from Palatine immigrants, and it's likely that some of the ancestors whom people think of as Palatine immigrants were actually Hessian soldiers.
- Some of the Hessians who remained in America apparently are rather well documented (for example, see http://jsha.org/jshacomb.htm ), so adding them to the project scope might not be particularly burdensome.
Reasons against including Hessians in this project include:
- The project has a lot on its plate already; I think the Palatine migration to America was much larger than any other colonial migration.
- Hessian immigration occurred for very different reasons and under very different circumstances than the "Palatines." The Palatines left Germany voluntarily, mainly in response to economic circumstances, and arrived in America on immigration ships. In contrast, the Hessians were mostly involuntary conscripts who were shipped to America on some form of military transport.
- Hessians also could fall in the scope of the 1776 project.
- Hessians who immigrated to America could be successfully treated by a small, separate focused subproject of German Roots, benefiting from resources like http://jsha.org/jshacomb.htm
I think I'm leaning toward that small focused subproject of German Roots. - Ellen, 20 January 2017
--- I agree with you Ellen. I think it would work better as a separate sub-project of German roots. This is both because of the "different reasons and different circumstances" that you mention, and also because I think that technically, any Hessian soldiers that 'settled' in North America did so after the conclusion of the American Revolution. And I thought we were going to concentrate on folks who settled here before that event. - Dave, 20 January 2017
What's the odds of a group of 4 people including two April fools? - Ellen
Yeah, that is funny. Skeeter said he had not come across another April fool on WikiTree before me. I have half a dozen in my tree! - Dave
My grand aunt, Hulda Prideaux, was born on 1 Apr 1906. Does that make her an "April Fool" according to this conversation? Her parents were German immigrants from Baden-Württemberg (Richard Hollenbeck 09:21, 15 May 2017 (EDT) ).
It sure does !! She's a member of the club! Dave Rutherford 10:52 PM EDT 15 May 2017
- PDF file of A Genealogical History of the Fenstermacher Family, 1936 manuscript by Clarence Eberman Beckel Aug 20, 2017.
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On 29 Jul 2018 at 14:16 GMT P Shunk wrote:
On 23 Jan 2018 at 06:25 GMT Ellen Smith wrote:
The profile messages on the old page are no longer visible, but you can still see them (and other content that didn't get moved) at this link.
On 4 Jan 2018 at 11:22 GMT Harold Lansing wrote:
On 4 Jan 2018 at 05:14 GMT Dave Rutherford wrote:
One of our members, Ellen Smith, was recently named a WikiTree Leader.
This means we can upgrade our little project and we will eventually be getting a Project Account and probably a Google group for messages, which will likely render this page obsolete. We will keep you all posted on this.
And congrats to Ellen!
On 18 Dec 2017 at 04:54 GMT Dave Rutherford wrote:
I have added you to our project and sent you a note about how to get on the trusted list for our bulletin board.
Welcome to the project!
On 18 Dec 2017 at 03:45 GMT William Boyer wrote:
On 6 May 2017 at 00:32 GMT Dave Rutherford wrote:
One thing that we could work on, if anyone has the time, is to straighten out some of the early Palatine lines. Many of them have numerous duplicates (often compounded by variations in spelling) and questionable entries.
I have decided to start with the Haus line (https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Haus-7) Not the worst problem, but he does have a grandson listed as married at 14, with 28 children b. from 1751 to 1817 among other issues!
Can always use help with this line, or you can jump in with a different family. Lots of problems to sort out, such as the Chryler/Kreussler etc. or Wintemute's of New Jersey.
I expect that fixing these lines will be a never-ending challenge!
On 30 Mar 2017 at 21:08 GMT Dave Rutherford wrote:
Now I have Internet Archive (https://archive.org/web/) on my Bookmarks ToolBar, right next to my Email and WikiTree logins.
On 30 Mar 2017 at 15:24 GMT Harold Lansing wrote:
Thanks for the heads up on the source going dark. I wonder if the info can be scraped and saved elsewhere?
On 30 Mar 2017 at 15:04 GMT Ellen Smith wrote:
Fortunately, most or all of the content seems to be at archive.org (e.g., https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20150623014659/http://www.threerivershms.com/TOCschaffer.htm ). It will continue to be available on Archive.org.