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Pre-1500 Resource Page

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Purpose and Scope: This page is for collecting and sharing reliable resources for pre-1500 research. The information is for everyone, however the page is only editable by members who have pre-1500 certification.

Contents

Compilations

These are modern secondary sources with a high level of scholarship. They should be followed unless proven incorrect by other modern sources.
  • The Prosopography of Anglo-Saxon England (PASE), The Department of History and the Centre for Computing in the Humanities, at King’s College, London, The Department of Anglo-Saxon, Norse, and Celtic Studies, University of Cambridge, August, 2010 (searchable database). (Note: This is a well sourced relational database claimed by the authors to contain all the recorded inhabitants of England from the late sixth to the late eleventh century.)
  • Medieval Lands by Charles Cawley. A study which attempts to provide a narrative biography of all of the noble houses of Europe cross-referenced to some original sources. Valuable because of the broad scope of the study but mostly doesn't have the in-depth investigation of individuals as some other resources in this list. Searchable.[1]
  • Complete Peerage, by G.E. Cokayne is a comprehensive and authoritative source for the peerage of England. Originally published in 8 volumes between 1887 and 1898, the high level of scholarship generally holds up well until today. Though, like all works of its kind, improvements and corrections to CP are constantly being made.
From 1910 to 1959, 'revised and expanded' versions were published. This stretched the original 8 volumes to 13. Finally, in 1998 a 14th volume of 'Additions and Corrections' was published. Many additional corrections, most of which were first noted on the SGM newsgroup, have been collected by Chris Phillips on his Medieval Genealogy site. All 14 volumes are available for download at FamilySearch.org [2]
  • Royal Ancestry, by Douglas Richardson. [3]

Resource Sites Online

Places to help you find primary records.
  • English Regnal Calendar - Most medieval documents did not state the actual year but referred to the reign of the king. This online calendar will allow you to quickly convert to the correct year.
  • British History Online "British History Online is a digital library of key printed primary and secondary sources for the history of Britain and Ireland, with a primary focus on the period between 1300 and 1800."

English Medieval Primary Records

  • Domesday Book Online, searchable by county, Domesday Book images kindly made available by Professor J.J.N. Palmer. Images may be reused under a Creative Commons BY-SA licence - please credit Professor J.J.N. Palmer and George Slater, Site by Anna Powell-Smith. Domesday data created by Professor J.J.N. Palmer, University of Hull, (open source): PostgreSQL, PostGIS, GeoDjango, and OpenStreetMap.
  • Fine Rolls: Fine Rolls are records relating to the financial affairs of the king. They frequently touch on issues of genealogical interest as they can record transfers of property which were held of the king. Also, writs of Diem Clausit Extremum were recorded in the Fine Rolls making this a key source for dates of death for medieval persons.
  • Wills - Index A downloadable spreadsheet of over 28000 testators mentioned in some wills of the period 1399-1540: this is derived from works published up to the year 2000. Where all this information is available, the main spreadsheet gives the name of the testator, the date of the will, the date it was proved and where, and the source (abbreviated name) from which the information was obtained. The spreadsheet and key to sources can be found at http://www.ricardianresources.online/2_testatorsindex.php.

British Isles: Scotland

  • Records of the Parliaments of Scotland to 1707 http://www.rps.ac.uk/ Records from 1235, show records in original Latin, French, Scots, and Modern English translation, or both side by side. Browse by reign or use Advanced Search.

British Isles: Ireland

British Isles: England

  • Gildas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gildas best known for De Excidio et Conquestu Britanniae, history of Britain, the only widely accepted source for history of the post-Roman period written by a near-contemporary
  • Anglo-Saxon Chronicle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_Chronicle Organized by year; the earliest dated at 60 BC (the annals' date for Caesar's invasions of Britain), and historical material follows up to the year in which the chronicle was written, at which point contemporary records begin. These manuscripts collectively are known as the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle. Written in 9th Century in Old English. Many copies made and dispersed throughout England each being updated independently. 1154 is latest update known. Written from perspective of the invaders. 9 Surviving manuscripts are known about.

European Continent

  • Monumenta Germaniae Historica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monumenta_Germaniae_Historica "carefully edited and published primary sources (mostly in Latin, no translations)... for the study of German history, but includes other areas - Britain, Czech lands, Poland, Austria, France, Low Countries, Italy, Spain etc" Often see them used as sources with abbreviation MGH in The Henry Project or Medieval Lands etc. Online version containing all volumes up to 2010 here http://www.dmgh.de
  • Genealogie Mittelalter website in German by Manfred Hiebl, with information about German dynasties from medieval period. Usually has a separate profile page for each individual, and cites mostly recent secondary sources, including excerpts from some of these. However where these sources differ, it's not always clear why one date/relationship is emphasised over another. Often this website is the only way to access recent secondary sources that might not otherwise be readily available. http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/genealogie-mittelalter/ Note - Has links to similar sites centred on Frankish/Byzantine/Plantagenet families and others, but these are sometimes not as detailed and other sources may be preferable.
  • Das Haus Brabant: Genealogie der Herzoge von Brabant und der Landgrafen von Hessen, vol. 1 900s to Philipp the Great by Carl Knetsch - https://archiv.ub.uni-marburg.de/ubfind/Record/urn:nbn:de:hebis:04-eb2015-0060 In German but genealogical information is relatively easy to understand. Although published in 1917 this is still a recommended genealogy of the family of the Dukes of Brabant and Landgraves of Hesse. Each person has a mini-biography citing sources including primary sources.
  • http://www.genverre.com access only for paid members. This site is specific to glass and crystal makers and their craft. Multiple databases. User donated ones are reviewed and notes made by review group. Other databases from physical acts and other official documents. Laura Bozzay is an officer in the Organization and can access all databases.
  • http://jeanjacques.villemag.free.fr/ généalogie des rois de France arbre généalogique des rois de France, mérovingiens, carolingiens, robertiens, capétiens, valois, bourbons, orlé...
  • Histoire Généalogique de la Maison Royale de France, des pairs, grands officiers de la Couronne... by Père Anselme. USE WITH CAUTION for medieval genealogies. Whole collection available here.
  • Savoy (Savoie, Savoia) Previté-Orton, Charles William. 1912. The early history of the House of Savoy (1000-1233). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press" Digital image: Internet Archive. https://archive.org/details/earlyhistoryofho00prevuoft Appears to be really well-researched using primary and secondary sources. Perhaps a bit dated?
  • Spain - Codice de Roda - one of the early genealogies of Spanish rulers written from a 'Christian' perspective. The article is in Spanish and Codice in Latin. Lacarra, José M., "Textos navarros del códice de Roda", Estudios de Edad Media de la Corona de Aragón, I (1945) : 194-283. Online , Universidad Zaragoza, http://www.unizar.es/cema/recursos/193_284.pdf
  • Spain - Las dinastías reales de España en la Edad Media - A modern version of genealogies of all the medieval rulers of countries that eventually made up Spain and Portugal, written by Jamie de Salazar y Acha, a respected Spanish historian and genealogist, published in 2021 but appears free to download. In Spanish but relatively easy to understand with some help from an online translation service. (Madrid : Real Academia de la Historia, 2021). Electronic edition, Agencia Estatal Boletín Oficial del Estado, https://www.boe.es/biblioteca_juridica/publicacion.php?id=PUB-DH-2021-233

Quality Websites - Use with Caution

Best used as a guide to further research.
  • The Bartrum Project presents Peter C. Bartrum's "Welsh Genealogies AD 300- 1500". This work was a continuation of earlier publications. As described in 'The Bartrum "Welsh Genealogies"' by Darrell Wolcott (accessed September 15, 2017 at Center for the Study of Ancient Wales): 'So long as today's researchers understand that Bartrum was NOT attempting to portray actual and feasible family charts, but limited his purpose to summarizing the material found in other manuscripts, his work can be very helpful. It should not, however, be cited as the principle source to "prove" any asserted facts.'
  • Genealogics.org - Personal website of Leo van de Pas. Large database generally created with quality secondary sources. It has the advantage frequent error correction by contributors to SGM newsgroup. Like all sites of its kind, some errors are inevitable and it is best to confirm the information directly from quality secondary and primary sources.
  • Our Royal, Titled, Noble, & Commoner Ancestors and Cousins, Personal website of Marlyn Lewis. Large database generally created with a mix of quality secondary sources and from sources of lesser quality. While often useful as a guide, it is also known to contain numerous errors. All data derived from this website needs to be confirmed by quality secondary and primary sources.

Sources to Avoid / Known Frauds

  • WikiTree category compiling known fraudulent family trees and the genealogists that fabricated them.
  • Royalty for Commoners, by Roderick W. Stuart. Seemingly authoritative and similar in structure to Magna Carta Sureties and Ancestral Roots, this publication is filled with unproven speculation, and disproved lines. Do not use.
  • Nicolas Viton de Saint-Allais (author of Nobiliaire Universel de France and numerous other genealogy books): Viton de Saint-Allais's genealogy work is considered "of poor value", and should only be accepted with extreme caution. Contains approximations and some artificial connections. Do not use for pre-1500 profiles.
  • Jean-Baptiste-Pierre Jullien de Courcelles (Dictionnaire Universel de la Noblesse de France), while his reputation is not as bad Nicolas Viton de Saint-Allais's, Jullien de Courcelles bought Saint-Allais's practice and continued his work, and for this reason should be used with caution. Do not use for pre-1500 profiles.

Other WikiTree Links and Resources

Full Citations

Formatted full references for your copy-paste ease of use.
  1. Cawley, Charles. Medieval Lands: A Prosopography of Medieval European Noble and Royal Families, Online at Foundation for Medieval Genealogy Website (accessed 20xx).
  2. Cokayne, George Edward ed. Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the United Kingdom, 2nd edition in 14 volumes. (London,1910-1998).
  3. Richardson, Douglas. Royal Ancestry: A Study In Colonial And Medieval Families, in 5 vols. (Salt Lake City, Utah, 2013).

Pre-1500 Help Aids

Translation Tools
Calendar Tools
  • A medieval English calendar, version of the Julian calendar, as used in England, covering the 11th to 16th centuries, "SOME NOTES ON MEDIEVAL ENGLISH GENEALOGY" (Website)
Maps




Collaboration
  • Login to request to the join the Trusted List so that you can edit and add images.
  • Private Messages: Contact the Profile Managers privately: John Atkinson, Joe Cochoit, and Laura Bozzay. (Best when privacy is an issue.)
  • Public Comments: Login to post. (Best for messages specifically directed to those editing this profile. Limit 20 per day.)
  • Public Q&A: These will appear above and in the Genealogist-to-Genealogist (G2G) Forum. (Best for anything directed to the wider genealogy community.)


Comments: 102

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Hi all,

Should History of Parliament be included?

Cheers, Susie

posted by Susie (Potter) Officer
I made some edits. Nothing definitive or final. Just trying to help.

Should we talk about the section headings? I'm confused about them. How do we expect the reader will use this page? Would it make sense to organize headers by region and time period?

posted by Chris Whitten
edited by Chris Whitten
Thanks Chris

Maybe there needs to be a wider discussion about how all the source lists fit together. Currently there are project sources lists, pre-1700 source lists, and all the Source Space Pages started by Rick Pierpont and maybe others as well. Particularly as Kay points out in the comment below, that the same source can be mentioned in different lists but with different ideas about the value or reliability.

Just off the top of my head, perhaps this list reverts to just being where to find Pre-1500 primary or original sources online, and any secondary sources are left for the other lists? Definitely then headers could be via region/country with maybe some further organised into time periods.

posted by John Atkinson
Thanks, John. I agree.

Thinking about the pre-1700 source lists at the same time is a good idea, especially because this page is categorized with them. https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Reliable_Sources_for_Pre-1700_Profiles

The lists in that category have a clear purpose and intended usage. Members are supposed to check the lists to see if a source they plan to use for a pre-1700 profile is on the list.

Most of them also have a standard format with three subsections:

  • Reliable Sources
  • Reliable Sources with Conditions
  • Unreliable Sources

To throw this out there ... maybe the Medieval Project should create Space:Medieval Project Reliable Sources and use these three sections, with subsections for regions as John describes. Then see whatever is left on this page and think about whether to integrate it elsewhere or create a new page with a specific intended usage, and then merge this page into the Medieval Project Reliable Sources list.

If this page was converted into a straight-forward list of what sources are considered reliable and unreliable, it might then be easier to reference in instructions on https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Pre-1500_Work_without_a_Badge

That is, we might be able to more simply say that if someone wants to add or remove something on a pre-1500 profile and is asking for a Pre-1500 Certified member to do it, they should first check this list to see if their source is reliable.

???

posted by Chris Whitten
Hi Chris,

I, with Laura, originally created this page primarily as a finding aid, and as a way to demonstrate the types of resources which should be used for medieval profiles. Most of it is based on the list of Medieval Genealogy Resources I keep on google groups. When I joined WikiTree the vast majority of medieval profiles were unsourced or sourced to low quality secondary sources. These sources are meant to get people closer to the primary source. How do we know the parents of someone born in the 14th century? How do we know birth dates? If I say someone was born before 13 August 1325, where does that date come from? The level of scholarship on WikiTree has increased tremendously in the last 7 years, and pages like this probably help.

I am still very protective of this page. It is not meant to be edited by anyone with a pre-1500 badge (I am sort of surprised at how many people have been added to the trusted list). We take suggestions from people, the majority of which are either inappropriate or too narrowly focused to be added to this page.

I do not see much value in dividing this page into Reliable Sources and Unreliable Sources. That is not really the purpose of the page, which is to help people do medieval research by pointing them to primary sources and high quality secondary sources. If I was to create a Reliable Sources page for the Medieval Project, it would look very different than this and not list the vast majority of resources on this page (something closer to the Magna Carta Project Reliable Sources).

"That is, we might be able to more simply say that if someone wants to add or remove something on a pre-1500 profile and is asking for a Pre-1500 Certified member to do it, they should first check this list to see if their source is reliable." I don't think this will ever be possible. There are thousands of acceptable sources and there is no way to list them all. A list of common unreliable sources does have some utility by making it easy to point someone to a reason their source is not being accepted for making a change to a profile.

posted by Joe Cochoit
It may be worth recording that, as someone who regularly consults this page, I find its current form and content very helpful. I would be reluctant to see the information divided between separate pages. I may disagree on one or two things - I would prefer much heavier caveats for Marlyn Lewis's Our Royal, Titled, Noble and Commoner Ancestors, which both the England and Magna Carta Projects regards as unreliable - but that is a detail.

It would not make sense to organise the page by period: many of the sources straddle periods. There is already quite a bit of organisation by geographical area, but a number of the sources are not region-specific.

As Joe has said, this is not a "reliable sources" page of the kind developed by some other Projects, with a distinction between Reliable and Use-with-a-degree-of-caution. Its audience is pre-1500-badged members who are experienced genealogists, and who are expected to be able to discriminate between reliable sources and helpful sources to be used with some care: unlike Project pages on reliable sources which are designed largely to help less experienced members. And for the medieval period, even primary sources often need to be used with care - obvious examples are ages given in Inquisitions Post Mortem and allegations made in medieval court cases.

As a user, I would very much prefer not to see the structure of this page undergo substantial change. I am just grateful to Joe and Laura for putting this together.

posted by Michael Cayley
edited by Michael Cayley
To add that Projects' reliable source pages are in very varying states of development. Many European Projects either do not attempt to cover the medieval period in their source guidance (eg France, Czech Roots, Denmark and the Netherlands) or else explicitly piggyback on this page to some extent - as is the case with Germany. Some geographical Projects do not yet have developed reliable source pages - eg Spain and Italy.

And for continental Europe, modern country divisions anyway do not make sense for the medieval period.

posted by Michael Cayley
edited by Michael Cayley
Joe, thank you for creating this page with Laura, and for contributing so much to our mission. I am told that your work is widely admired in the Medieval genealogy community.

Joe and Michael, I'm not trying to take a useful page away from anyone. :-) The main reason I'm getting involved is that I think we should clarify and simplify things for WikiTreers who aren't Pre-1500 Certified.

I also have an interest in distinguishing between these three types of pages on WikiTree:

1.) Community-wide style rules and policies. These are agreed-upon by the community and documented on help pages.

2.) Project-specific style rules. These are managed under the authority of projects. (The pages in Category:Reliable_Sources_for_Pre-1700_Profiles should be of this type.)

3.) Privately-managed pages.

If the audience for this page is "pre-1500-badged members who are experienced genealogists" it could be kept as-is, and type #3, privately-managed. I could also envision it being used to train members who want to become pre-1500 certified, perhaps even as part of a WikiTree Academy course.

Back to non-badged WikiTreers. Right now, we are sending them mixed messages regarding what to do when they think they have something to contribute to a pre-1500 profile. Unsourced RNBs, for example, ask them to add sources. Various pages instruct them to post comments on the profiles. They're told elsewhere that comments are a bad way to do it. The instructions on https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Pre-1500_Work_without_a_Badge are hard to follow and point people here. I'd like to simplify those instructions and unify the messages on RNBs and elsewhere.

P.S. I just realized how I got to this page in the first place. The second paragraph on Help:Pre-1500_Profiles says "Please review our page on reliable resources for pre-1500 research" and points here. That implies that this is a type #1 help page, or at least a type #2 project style page. This is the sort of thing I need to fix.

posted by Chris Whitten
edited by Chris Whitten
Thanks, Chris. It would certainly be useful to make sure the help guidance on pre-1500 profiles is consistent, and we will definitely want to tell people without the pre-1500 badge that one way they can contribute to pre-1500 profiles is to add comments to profiles if they have well-sourced information that could usefully be taken into account, or spot a clear slip that has been overlooked. We do get quite a bit of valuable (mostly minor) improvement to profiles that way.

That is probably off topic for this conversation. Coming back to topic, one "constitutional" option for this page might be to make the Medieval Project one of the managers, with Joe Cochoit (a Project Co-ordinator of the Project) taking lead responsibility for maintaining it, perhaps in conjunction with John Atkinson (one of the Leaders of the Project) who is another of the current managers of the page. I don't know how Joe and John would feel about that. But it would help "fix" the issue of what type of page it is.

posted by Michael Cayley
edited by Michael Cayley
Question re Bartrum, Genealogics, and Our Royal, Titled, Noble, & Commoner Ancestors and Cousins... If the BioCheck app considers each of these as "not a valid source" for a Pre-1500 profile then the profile would be reported as possibly unsourced only if no other possibly valid source was found. In other words, if that were the only source on the profile, then it would reported. Please let me know, and I can add these to the app.

Also note that the England project lists Our Royal, Titled.... as an unreliable source rather than use with caution https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:England_Project_Reliable_Sources#Unreliable_Sources_or_.27Actually_Not_Sources_At_All.27

posted by Kay (Sands) Knight
edited by Kay (Sands) Knight
As Joe Cochoit has said in a comment today in response to Chris Whitten, this page does not set out to be a Reliable Sources page of the kind Projects have created.

FYI The Magna Carta Project also regards Our Royal, Titled… as unreliable.

The Magna Carta Project regards Bartrum as a source with lots of good information, but to be used with care. The position for Bartrum is the same for the Wales Project - see https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Wales_Pre_1500_Resources - and it is the Wales Project which takes the lead on medieval Welsh profiles. This means that Bartrum should not be seen as in the class of "unreliable sources". Used sensibly, it is a valid source.

posted by Michael Cayley
edited by Michael Cayley
I have strengthened the warning on this website. I am not ready to move it to the Sources to Avoid / Known Frauds section as it is better than that. Marlyn Lewis at least provides sources and much of it is based Complete Peerage, Richardson, Europaische Stammtafeln, etc. (helpful), but he also accepts random emails for additions (bad). If anything, it would be best to delete it and let it be among the thousands of other personal websites of unknown and questionable quality.
posted by Joe Cochoit
It's probably worth adding that both Leo van der Pas and Marlyn Lewis are now deceased and although there are people keeping their respective databases open, there are limited updates or corrections made to any errors.
posted by John Atkinson
Re: The Bartrum Project

The website cited here is more user friendly - https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/1587574/bartrum-welsh-genealogies-online-at-geni-com?show=1589257#a1589257

posted by Stuart Awbrey
sorry but geni.com is a copyrightd website and we can't use this link in our published list
posted by Laura (Pennie) Bozzay
Laura, that something is copyrighted shouldn't prevent it from being on this list. MANY items included on this resource page are copyrighted. Is there some other reason to exclude it ?

Edited to add: it's also not on geni.com.

posted by Jillaine Smith
edited by Jillaine Smith
We have the project on our list but not going through geni.com Quality Websites - Use with Caution

Best used as a guide to further research. The Bartrum Project presents Peter C. Bartrum's "Welsh Genealogies AD 300- 1500". This work was a continuation of earlier publications. As described in 'The Bartrum "Welsh Genealogies"' by Darrell Wolcott (accessed September 15, 2017 at Center for the Study of Ancient Wales): 'So long as today's researchers understand that Bartrum was NOT attempting to portray actual and feasible family charts, but limited his purpose to summarizing the material found in other manuscripts, his work can be very helpful. It should not, however, be cited as the principle source to "prove" any asserted facts.' Our version comes with much needed caution the geni version does not and without doing a lot of research not sure it is faithful to the original work. We defer to primary sources and the genie url does not appear to be that. i will sk John and Joe what they think

posted by Laura (Pennie) Bozzay
I still don't see any reference to geni.com.

But I did click through to http://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id139.html which appears to be doing a good job of checking and correcting the Bartrum Project's list. Seems like it should be checked out to see if it's worthy of its own listing here. At a minimum, the section on Bartrum's project should include a link to this Ancient Wales Studies project *about* Bartrum's project.

posted by Jillaine Smith
the geni reference came from the comment posted to which I originally replied. It just seems odd to use a non-primary source when we have the original source already on our list. I would ask why push so hard to add it? What is wrong with what we have?

the source we were asked to add clearly shows it is on geni.com Re: The Bartrum Project The website cited here is more user friendly - https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/1587574/bartrum-welsh-genealogies-online-at-geni-com?show=1589257#a1589257

posted 3 days ago by Stuart Awbrey

posted by Laura (Pennie) Bozzay
edited by Laura (Pennie) Bozzay
Unless I'm misunderstanding, we list Bartrum Project; others have pointed out that Bartam has errors. The newly offered source is an effort to correct Bartrum's errors.
posted by Jillaine Smith
Thanks Laura, Jillaine, and Stuart, and my apologies that I've been unable to comment until now.

I think we should add the link to the Geni version of Bartrum's tables as an alternative way to access them, but retaining the current link to the University version and the warning from Darrell Wolcott.

Bartrum published genealogical tables of Welsh families from 300-1500, then later volumes from 1500-1600 and then maybe there were also corrections. I'm not a member of Geni, but my understanding is they have simply re-published the tables but in such a way that families, indexes etc that might have been in different volumes are listed together. They are presenting exactly what is in the University version just in a different arrangement. There is no correcting of whatever errors Bartrum's work may contain, which is why they should remain under the Use with Caution section.

posted by John Atkinson
edited by John Atkinson
John - your understanding is correct. Geni has republished - with the University's permission - what had been available on the University's Cadair website (which was retired). Same pages/charts, from both publications. When on Cadair, the pages were accessed after searching for them. The Geni page lists them all and you can search using "Ctrl+f". See Geni's "Bartrum Genealogical Project" (free login is required to access the pages listed).

edit - changed "300-1500 and 1500-1600" to just "publications". From the Geni page: "...Welsh Genealogies AD 300-1400, in 8 volumes, and in 1983 he published Welsh Genealogies AD 1400-1500, in a further 18 volumes...."

posted by Liz (Noland) Shifflett
edited by Liz (Noland) Shifflett
my biggest concern is we are a genealogy site and so are they.. a competitor so I worry about conflict of interest and taking over their intellectual property on our list. That is deeper than simple copyright. If we were a non prifit group I would fel differently. But we are not
posted by Laura (Pennie) Bozzay
Thanks Laura, but I don't see how just having a link on our page to one of their pages is a conflict of interest, besides the fact that Geni.com are now owned by MyHeritage, which is much more of a 'for profit' organisation than WikiTree.
posted by John Atkinson
Wow, did not know so much was being written. I had not checked back waiting for a response from Geni.com. I got a response from them yesterday advising their Bartrum material is not copyrighted.

Rationale would be they are using the Aberystwyth material by permission and the original material carries the CC BY 4.0 designation which allows free use and modification.

I agree with John. There is not an issue of comparing family trees between the sites. It is simply a source to access the Bartrum material in a hugely more user friendly format.

posted by Stuart Awbrey
I am looking to create a pre-1500 profile for M. Thomas Otto (otto-3281). Born in the late 1480's or early 1490's. I was going to apply for a pre- 1500 certification. Is the enclosed link to the source acceptable? Link is available on otto-3281.

https://www.wkgo.de/personen/suchedetail?sw=gnd:GNDPFB6085

Regards,

Kevin

posted by Kevin Otto
Hi Kevin,

I saw you created Otto-3281. I don't know exactly if the source is credible, but I'm asking myself where's the point in creating such a profile, if there's basically nothing to tell which could not have been mentioned in the son's profile?

Kind regards from Black Forest

Flo
posted by Florian Straub
edited by Florian Straub
Can we please choose a more meaningful name for the paragraph "Resource Sites Online". Because most of the entries in the subsequent sections would also qualify with his headline. Any suggestions?
posted by Florian Straub
I’ve been contacted by a newish member who wants to create pre-1500 , in fact pre-100!, profiles for King Herod and his descendants. Do we have any policy or guidelines on the use of Biblical-era profiles or sources? Herod’s Wikipedia has many references/sources, but I know nothing about their value.
posted by Robert Hvitfeldt
WikiTree has a hard cutoff date of 1AD. The system can't handle negative numbers. We also do not enter in any of the biblical genealogy. Fact is, there are no genealogical lines which can be traced to antiquity. I believe the oldest line which can be documented is to about the year 500, which is the ancestry of Charlemagne (and even this has problems).
posted by Joe Cochoit
Added a couple of Spanish sources that I have been using to try to clean up many of the medieval Spanish and Portuguese profiles
posted by John Atkinson
Bit puzzled by the absence of a Wales section under the British Isles heading. The Wales Project pre-1500 resource page is linked lower down but surely its complete contents should feature separately along with Scotland, Ireand & England sub sections. (The Bartum project listed under Quality Websites now been extended by Michael Siddons as WG3 btw.)
posted by Anne Rees
edited by Anne Rees
GEDBAS should not be listed here. In the end it's only a collection of user generated family trees, often without sources!
posted by Florian Straub
Thanks Florian - is the other link http://ofb.genealogy.net/ worth retaining under a separate heading?
posted by John Atkinson
Hi John, sorry for the delay. Since ofb.genealogy.net has family books that mostly hopefully were created by transcribing whole church books, I would say "keep".
posted by Florian Straub
edited by Florian Straub
The Bartrum Project: https://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/handle/2160/4026 is a dead link. According to the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine it's been dead for a few years.
I have updated the link to what I think it was originally pointed to.
posted by Joe Cochoit
No, that is already linked to later in the same paragraph "As described in 'The Bartrum "Welsh Genealogies"' by Darrell Wolcott".
Perhaps this one then.

https://pure.aber.ac.uk/portal/en/datasets/bartrum-genealogical-project(40837b6f-1887-4afd-9c6e-9b7e3a122693).html

Since I didn't put that resource there, I am not sure what was originally intended. It would not be a very easy to use source.

posted by Joe Cochoit
Thanks for finding that link Joe!

A couple of years ago, the university switched from http to https and all the URLs with http broke. Then they took the entire Bartrum Project offline. Stuart Awbrey of the Wales Project contacted them & if I recall, the reason given was to make higher quality images. The link you found appears to be the result of that.

posted by Liz (Noland) Shifflett
Yes, thank you. I agree not very easy to use.
Thanks for the terrific list of resources--it should keep me off-focus for weeks!

What is the policy/your advice on creating profiles for pre-1500 historical people whom we know exist but for whom we know we won't get genealogical sources the way we would like them, but we want them as an historical lynchpin in an hypothesis we're working on?

Example: Guillaume Tirel, well-known chef to the Valois Kings 1310-1395.

Wikipedia provides references to wine expert Hugh Johnson and Tirel's own works in translation, &c.--not genealogically sourced, but a good-enough surety to get to paper. As voiced elsewhere, better a name than no name.

I would like to create the profile, but I want to reference it with Wikipedia, knowing that the sources may not even be out there.

What's your recommendations?

Thanks

Mike

posted by Michael Moriarty
There are many pre-1500 pages which aren't sourced to primary documents, so we can certainly make profiles based on secondary sources.

I guess my question is, do we know his ancestry or descendants? WikiTree is after all a genealogy website with a goal of connecting everyone to a single tree. If the profile is only meant to provide a wikipedia style biography with no genealogical detail, it would be better to link to the wikipedia page.

posted by Joe Cochoit
Hi Michael, as you don't appear to have the pre-1500 badge, you won't be able to create the profile anyway.

Even if you could, as you state you are working on an hypothesis, it might be better to start on a free-space page. Then you could have that reviewed and once you can create or have someone else create the profile/s it should be easier enough to copy/paste from a free-space page to a profile page.

posted by John Atkinson
What is your advice on adding a Chinese section for pre-1500? yes? no? perhaps?
posted by [Living ye]
Sue,

I would think that pre-1500 Chinese resources are so out of our experience, having access to, and ability to interpret that it would be best if it was its own separate free-space page. If you or anyone else creates such a page we can certainly link to it.

posted by Joe Cochoit
Is this site reliable? http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk

I found a reference for a pre-1500 profile here http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_193_5.shtml and shows image of original here http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT7/CP25(1)/CP25_1_193_5/IMG_0602.htm

Profile is Le_Woodward-1 in Warwickshire, England. The record and matches up well with sources and information for the profile.

posted by Allen (Woodard) Jensen
edited by Allen (Woodard) Jensen
Yes, it is an exceptionally fine source of information. Chris Philips is doing a remarkable service by translating and transcribing all of those Feets of Fines.
posted by Joe Cochoit
Someone should add it as a note or something on ancestor as I am not pre-1500 certified yet? It looks like an ancestor from years earlier - 20 June 1283. I added a comment to ancestor here https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Woodward-8017 - that may be sufficient.
posted by Allen (Woodard) Jensen
edited by Allen (Woodard) Jensen
It actually already is under the section:

Resource Sites Online "Some Notes On Medieval English Genealogy, by Chris Phillips. "

posted by Joe Cochoit
ScotsPeople have extensive parish records. Why are they not shown here?
posted by [Living Morton]
Thanks Bruce, but the parish records on the ScotlandsPeople website don't start until 1553 and are not appropriate for this list of pre-1500 sources. In fact no records on ScotlandsPeople that I can see are pre-1500.

ScotlandsPeople is on the list of reliable sources for Scotland https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Scotland_-_Reliable_Sources

posted by John Atkinson
edited by John Atkinson
John is correct. Scotland’s People is a wonderful resource after 1500 but this page is pre1500
posted by Laura (Pennie) Bozzay
Is it possible to add a section for Spanish sources? Thanks.
posted by Maria Castro
Sure Maria. I probably wont be able to evaluate them. We are looking for primary sources or high quality secondary sources which use primary sources.
posted by Joe Cochoit
I will be able to add some over time. There is a very lively Spanish genealogy community, but they don't function in English, so they are less likely to want to participate in WikiTree.
posted by Maria Castro
Would be glad for your help in assessing how we can best help the Spanish community. We look for things like vital records, birth, marriage, and death in both church records like vellums and in civil records once those kicked in. Enlistment papers and discharge papers for military. Tax and voter rolls. Cemetery records (not Find A Grave or transcriptions). Land deeds and charters. That kind of thing. If you find a really good secondary source we will need help from the Spanish Project to tell us if it is any good. Preferably from people who have the pre-1500 badge.
posted by Laura (Pennie) Bozzay
Since this is a pre-1500 resource page, I didn't think civil registration would be relevant? Church records in Spain are problematic because only some are digitized. I think each diocese can make its own decision about whether to allow it. There are some on FamilySearch.

Government controlled archives at every level and universities have been digitizing massive amounts of records in the past decade. There are also some private archives that have done it, like the archive of the Dukes of Alba (I think it is officially a foundation now.) There are lots of military records, land transactions, legal documents of all kinds, wills etc etc. If your family were "hildalgos" (kinda like the untitled landed gentry in England) there are lots of records pertaining to people proving the right to claim this, which was important because hidalgos were exempt from certain taxes. Military orders are also a great source of records. Because of the Spanish history of the "reconquista" a regular requirement was to prove that you were from an "old Christian" family, e.g. to enter the military, government jobs, the church, university..... Many of these records contain contemporary copies (handwritten) of parish registers. Those are mostly post medieval, but many provide pedigrees that allow you to track back.

This is a Spanish Government on-line guide to genealogical resources: http://www.bne.es/es/Micrositios/Guias/Genealogia/

There were a lot of very serious historians in Spain working on family history. I think the trend now is away from it, but all those publications are still available. The Spanish Association for Hidalgos has been publishing a very serious journal called "Hidalguía" since 1953. Pre-digitization there were also a lot of printed catalogues of archival holdings, much like in the UK.

I am happy to slowly start entering some of the resources I am familiar with if there is a place to put them. However, most of them will only be accessible for people with some command of Spanish.

posted by Maria Castro
If you are thinking very ambitiously of a lot of Spanish language sources, the best route may be to create a separate free space page that we can link to directly. If there are just a handful of the main sources used by Spanish researchers, we could add those here.
posted by Joe Cochoit
Ok so following Joe's suggestion below I can create a Free Space Page and make all of us PMs on it. That way you can add directly to it. We need to do some annotations like Joe did on the Pre-1500 page. We will create a Sub Head on the Pre 1500 page and link the Free Space Page to It. Maria you and I can brainstorm some section heads for the Free Space Page and we will privacy lock it so only we can add or substract to it.
posted by Laura (Pennie) Bozzay
Ok So I started to create the page. The only thing I can't change is the title. So let me know if this is ok. Pre-1500 Spanish Resource Page
posted by Laura (Pennie) Bozzay
Thanks Laura and Maria for doing this. You might like to add a link to Dialnet https://dialnet.unirioja.es/ where you can gain access to some of the recent Spanish research, mostly journal articles, some of which are available in full-text.

I hesitate to say this but some of the Spanish (and English) language Wikipedia articles for pre-1500 Spanish nobles are very well researched using recent sources, some of which again are in full-text. If nothing else they can provide a guide as to where to find further information. See for instance the article for Gonzalo Nunez https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzalo_N%C3%BA%C3%B1ez_de_Lara

You need to be careful of some of the Spanish nobility articles in Charles Cawley's Medieval Lands, he often uses out dated sources.

posted by John Atkinson
Just need to press the button to create the page... can you all let me know if the title

Pre-1500 Spanish Resource Page is ok as it is the only thing I can't change after creating it.

posted by Laura (Pennie) Bozzay
Hi Laura,

I was actually thinking about the title. Most of the resources I am aware of are not specific to pre-1500. Like I said, they are mostly databases like the National Archives. You can find pre-1500 primary resources within them, but you can find lots of other stuff as well. I am not aware of many exclusively pre-1500 resources for Spain. (They may exist, I just don't know them.) So perhaps this has to be just a "Spanish" resources page???

Maria

posted by Maria Castro
Our page is specific to Pre-1500 or to resources that span from pre-1500 on.

It is a specific focus not a general resource page.

posted by Laura (Pennie) Bozzay
Yes, I am aware. Well, as long as everyone is ok that the resources will almost all be the "span from pre-1500 on" kind, then we are good.
posted by Maria Castro
I can also do the title as Spanish Pre-1500 Resource Page then in the free space content area say: This is a place to gather primary sources for pre-1500 research. Many of these sources span the pre-1500 time period to later time periods so some of the resources listed may also be useful for anyone working on a Spanish profile. Languages the documents use may be Latin, Spanish, or even some other languages.
posted by Laura (Pennie) Bozzay
Sounds perfect to me, Laura! Once the page is up, I'll start plugging in some content when I have time.
posted by Maria Castro
The Spain project also maintains information on Resources specific to Spanish profiles.....
posted by Robin Lee
Maria, I would suggest that you contact Mindy Silva who leads the Spanish Project. She may also have a list of sources the project has already qualified. I have created the Spanish Pre-1500 page because our focus is specific to that time period. I noticed that you do not have the Pre-1500 certification. So we will need to get someone in the project to also work with us on it. She is a wonderful resource and a very nice person. I have worked with her on a number of things here on WikiTree. Right now I have the page privacy locked as I need to make sure Mindy is OK with us doing this.
posted by Laura (Pennie) Bozzay
Maria I don't read Spanish. Can you see if these are actual records from the time period? Not transcriptions but the handwritten records?

https://eudocs.lib.byu.edu/index.php/Spain:_Historical_Collections

posted by Laura (Pennie) Bozzay
This is an extensive list of databases. Some, like PARES, are like the British National Archives database, others are databases of organisations, universities etc etc. Like most databases they may contain both primary and secondary sources, e.g. PARES has digitized images of original documents in their archives, but may also have books etc. Certainly there are many many primary sources that can be accessed through these databases. I've use PARES a lot for my family research. There are also many similar databases at regional, provincial and municipal levels that are not even included there.
posted by Maria Castro
If you can let us know which ones are primary links we can add those.
posted by Laura (Pennie) Bozzay
The link to France moselle-genealogie is not working.

Please find here the correct link http://www.moselle-genealogie.net

With kind regards, Carolina

Thanks Carolina! There was a space before "net" in the URL. It should work now.

Cheers, Liz

posted by Liz (Noland) Shifflett
Suggestion: It might be helpful to add a link at the top of the page, something to the effect: Click here for information on how to get pre-1500 certification.
posted by Traci Thiessen
Hi Traci, Thanks for the suggestion. If you look under tthe Purposes you will see: Purpose and Scope

This page is for collecting and sharing reliable resources for pre-1500 research. The information presented is available to all Wikitree members, however the page is only editable by members who have qualified for the pre-1500 badge. Click here for information on how to get pre-1500 certification.

There is a link on the page that does not show up when I posted what I copied here. I think that does what you suggested. Let me know if that is not what you wanted

posted by Laura (Pennie) Bozzay
I have found the wife of John Wade, Margaret Gasccoigne b. 1455 d. 1521. Both from Yorkshire, East Riding, England.

Sources: These are the sources I am using: London Metropolitan Archives and Guildhall Library Manuscripts Section, Clerkenwell, London, England. Reference # M59172/1A; will # 120.

Hamilton, Rosanna, comp. British Chancery Records, 1386-1558 [database on line]. Provo, UT. Original source: List of Chancery Proceedings. Public Records Office Lists and Indees Volumes. Date 1515-1518, Vol 5 pg 82 bundle 410.

It is all very good but I have been researching the Tyndale family for a few years. I can say that primary sources do not exist in a few cases. Names and dates are difficult to put together in various resource materials but names that are constant throughout and should be included noting what secondary source is available. ONE NAME IS BETTER THAN NO NAME. I have from many hours of looking.. looking...& looking the father of Hugh Tyndale. I wish for some body to enter the name as I have it.

Donald McDonald

posted by Donald McDonald
Donald we need a place and a time frame. Is this perhaps your man? Tyndale-173 (abt. 1360 - bef. 1410)? I did find in the POMs of Scotland in the 1200s a Simon Tendal (and they have a note that says translation of Tyndale). I also found reference to John the younger and John the Elder, Alan, Adam Henry and Robert de Tyndale all in York 1319 so before the profile I found that you manage. These from Calendar Rolls published by the British govt. https://books.google.com/books?id=qA0KAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA359&lpg=PA359&dq=hugh+de+tyndale&source=bl&ots=VZFmqE4icV&sig=ACfU3U1eNgXUUqFxdhE3m64pb_0-BetSsQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi_o978toXoAhVERa0KHZ7hAJo4ChDoATABegQICxAB#v=onepage&q=%20tyndale&f=false Then a deed in 1335 names several Tyndales called de Tyndale including William and John , Bartholomew, Thomas and Robert. https://books.google.com/books?id=8dpAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA366&lpg=PA366&dq=hugh+de+tyndale&source=bl&ots=OzzRUbuqgY&sig=ACfU3U1eoUyRf9bMifMith9jkaKkDGUsaA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi_o978toXoAhVERa0KHZ7hAJo4ChDoATACegQIBBAB#v=onepage&q=hugh%20de%20tyndale&f=false now this next book is somewhat hard to decifer. This is in a foot note in Latin and it mentions a female Tyndale and then mentions a brother named Hugh. This is around 1375. See page 60 and 61 of https://books.google.com/books?id=lG_HJwJjMsUC&pg=PA60&lpg=PA60&dq=hugh+de+tyndale&source=bl&ots=kK3Abac1SN&sig=ACfU3U2ZgZjUeqLqEuQRBFKcxWq5C7RvTw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi_o978toXoAhVERa0KHZ7hAJo4ChDoATADegQICBAB#v=onepage&q=hugh%20de%20tyndale&f=false but by the 1400s the Tyndale line appears to have died out with Walter? Or maybe just the lands were transferred to a Claxton family. That is what I could find.
posted by Laura (Pennie) Bozzay
I've added Genealogie Mittelalter a German website about medieval German noble families to list.
posted by John Atkinson
I've added the link. Thanks, Jillaine.
Thanks so much.

1234567890 1234567890

posted by Jillaine Smith
This page should really be linked to from Help:Pre-1500. That page doesn't sufficiently stress the importance of high quality sources for pre-1500 profiles.
posted by Jillaine Smith
Citation for Cawley should be changed - EE says the database should be in quotes & the web host italicized. This was discussed at length in G2G with the following result:
  • Cawley, Charles. "Medieval Lands": A prosopography of medieval European noble and royal families © by Charles Cawley, hosted by Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (FMG). See also WikiTree's source page for MedLands.

(Coding is in green on the source page at Space:Medieval_Lands#Bibliography.)

posted by Liz (Noland) Shifflett
Under British Isles: could you add British Isles:Wales and a link to Space:Cymru_Project_Resources
posted by Richard Devlin
I added them under English Medieval Primary Records.
posted by Joe Cochoit
Here are some primary English records that you could include.

Anglo-American Legal Tradition: Ten million images of original documents http://aalt.law.uh.edu/

Searchable databases:

Common Pleas http://aalt.law.uh.edu/Indices/CP40Indices/CP40_Indices.html

Kings/Queens Bench http://aalt.law.uh.edu/Indices/KB27Indices/KB27Indices.html

WAALT http://www.uh.edu/waalt/index.php/Main_Page

posted by Vance Mead
I would be OK with that John. They are in a section labeled "Use with Caution".
posted by Joe Cochoit
I see Our Royal, Titled, Noble, & Commoner Ancestors and Cousins is under "Quality Websites - Use with Caution." Is it a "quality website"?

This morning I came across a profile using Our Royal, Titled, Noble, & Commoner Ancestors and Cousins as their source. When I checked the information on that website against its cited source, I found, yet again, that the information they were attributing to that source was nowhere to be found.

Unreliable Sources says "Marlyn Lewis also gives information, with Richardson as an apparent source, which is not actually in Richardson, especially on dates and places. ... Avoid giving Marlyn Lewis as a source so far as possible."

Perhaps as John Atkinson suggested some time ago, it needs to be removed or moved to an Unreliable Sources section?

posted by Maryann (Thompson) Hurt
edited by Maryann (Thompson) Hurt
Along the same lines, I notice that Magna Carta project have a much stricter policy as to when to use Marlyn Lewis's website and wonder if we should be consistent.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Magna_Carta_Project_Reliable_Sources

posted by John Atkinson
I'd like to remove the.Peerage website by Darryl Lundy from our list. The main quality secondary source is probably The Complete Peerage and if all those volumes are still accessible then people should really be using that as a source rather than an intermediary. The only other source he uses often is a later version of Burke's Peerage, but I think we are all agreed that it isn't suitable for pre-1500.

I've just noticed lately that Darryl is using more sources that are debatable such as Clan Macfarlane website https://www.clanmacfarlanegenealogy.info/ and even though we do say to use Peerage.com with caution I think it is better to delete it altogether?

posted by John Atkinson
The site Peerage.com should be on the prohibited list. I just came across a pre-1500 profile that has the Peerge.com listed and the source that the site has is a family tree. It seems that the Peerge.com website is no better than a family tree in that we should suggest to Treers that they can use it as a place to find a primary source but should not use it for pre-1500 profiles (in all actuality, probably shouldn't even be used for pre-1700 profiles).
posted by SJ Baty
Thank, Joe, I'll see what else I can find that works as well. It sure is ideal getting an overall view of a family, instead of a few people at a time.
posted by Michael Thomas