no image

THE EARLY AUBREY/AWBREY FAMILY IN WALES FROM 1060 TO 1350

Privacy Level: Public (Green)
Date: [unknown] [unknown]
Location: Walesmap
Surnames/tags: Aubrey Awbrey
Profile manager: Stuart Awbrey private message [send private message]
This page has been accessed 1,873 times.
THE EARLY AUBREY/AWBREY FAMILY IN WALES
FROM 1060 TO 1350

Prepared by Stuart Awbrey November, 2017


The pedigree of the Early Aubrey/Awbreys in Wales – 1060 to 1350 – is described in several sources. They generate some confusion regarding the number of people and their names in the direct line during this period. The same applies to their calculated dates of birth. Often the Aubrey/Awbrey line is determined by the separate genealogies/histories of the women they married.

This page provides an explanation of these Aubrey/Awbrey line based on information provided by specific sources and information based on a preponderance of evidence.

To The Reader: If you have sourced information to add to these Aubrey/Awbrey profiles, or to this page, please send a message to Stuart Awbrey.


Contents

Primary Sources

Heraldic Visitations of Wales and Part of Marches Between the Years 1586 and 1613, Vol. II by Lewys Dwnn. Dwnn does not include dates. Circa birth dates listed below and on the profiles come from other sources and calculations.

Center for the Study of Ancient Wales – Darrell Wolcott. There are many articles at this site. Wolcott specializes in pre-1300 Wales. Wolcott's research quoted in this page was prepared for Stuart Awbrey.

This source page is in two parts:

Part 1 – List of Early Aubrey/Awbrey Individuals in Wales and How They Were Determined
Part 2 – Explanation of Darrell Wolcott's Genealogical Research

A primary source of this group of Awbreys is continuing genealogical research prepared by Darrell Wolcott – Center for the Study of Ancient Wales

Part 1 – List of Early Aubrey/Awbrey Individuals in Wales and How They Were Determined

Sir Reginald Awbrey born c. 1060. This individual is listed in Dwnn – "Sr Rinalt his sonne mared Isable do to Richard earle of Clare and Priany." He is the son of Saunder de Sancto Alberico aka Awbrey born c. 1030. This individual is listed in Dwnn – "Stiant Awbrey, a second brother to the L. Awbrey earlle of Bullen and earle Marchall of Ffraunce cã: to England with Wm y Conqueror in Anno Dom 1033."

Wolcott's research:
"Sir Reginald Awbrey born c. 1060; married Isabel (c. 1070) daughter of Richard de Clare (c. 1035); son of Gilbert (c.1000) son of Godfrey (c. 970); son of Richard I (de Clare) (c. 942-996). This Richard I had another son, Richard II, whose son Robert was the father of William the Conqueror.
The father of Sir Reginald is cited as Siant Awbrey who is described by Lewys Dwnn as a brother of "Lord Awbrey, Earl of Boulogne." One or both brothers came to England with William the Conqueror. There is the name of "Aybeuare" listed among the dead on a tablet at Battle Abbey at Hastings (1066).
He had a sister, Joan, born c. 1070 who was married to Sir Peter Gunter, another of Newmarche's knights.
They had a daughter, Anne (c. 1095) who married Sir John son of Sir Walter Havard, the latter being yet another of Newmarche's knights; and a son, Reginald."

Reginald Awbrey born c. 1095.

Wolcott's research:
"According to the Gunter family (records), Sir William was a son of Sir Peter Gunter and that Sir Peter was another of Newmarch's knights. It seems reasonable to assume that Sir Peter Gunter and Sir Reginald Awbrey were near the same age (both 25-35 years old in 1090). This then requires that we date Joan Gunter in the 2nd generation following Sir Reginald Awbrey. If she married a man named William Awbrey whose father was named Reginald, there must have been a Reginald Awbrey born c. 1095 who was the father of the William Awbrey in Dwnn's pedigree." Source for Gunter family records is Protheroe MS IV, page 227.

William Awbrey born c. 1125. This individual is listed in Dwnn – "William Awbrey of Aberkynfrig Esq mared Juhan doughter to Sr Wm Gunter, knight."

Wolcott's research:
"born c. 1125 who married Joan, daughter of Sir William Gunter, the son of Sir Peter Gunter listed above.
They had a son, William."

William Awbrey born c. 1160.

Wolcott's research:
"Joan ferch Sir William Gunter was born c. 1130 and married a William ap Reginald Aubrey born about 1125. Then a daughter of John Carew born c. 1205 married a Thomas ap William Aubrey born c. 1190. Thus, there must have been a William Aubrey born c. 1160."

Thomas Awbrey born c. 1190 - This individual is listed in Dwnn - "Thomas Awbrey of Aberkynfrig Esq mared Anne do to John Cayraw baron of Cayrowe."

Wolcott's research:
"born c. 1190 who married Joan, daughter of John Carew of Dyfed (Pembrokeshire).
Joan ferch Sir William Gunter was born c. 1130 and married a William ap Reginald Aubrey born about 1125. Then a daughter of John Carew born c. 1205 married a Thomas ap William Aubrey born c. 1190. Thus, there must have been a William Aubrey born c. 1160."

Thomas Awbrey born c. 1220. This individual is listed in Dwnn – "Thomas Awbrey of Aberkynfrig surnamed Counstable, mared Johan doughter to Trahaerne ab Eignon lord of Comond."

Wolcott's research:
"born c. 1220 who married Sian ferch Trahaearn (c. 1230) ap Einion (c. 1170) ap Gwalter (c. 1135) ap Trahaearn Fawr (c. 1095), Lord of Commote, ap Einion (c. 1065) ap Madog (c. 1035) ap Rhiwallon (c. 1000) who descended from the Irish Deisi tribe that included the 6th century Vortepir ap Aircol Lawhir, one of the 5 "evil" kings denounced by Gildas in his c. 540 work The Ruin of Britain. The Deisi came to South Wales about 343 A.D."

Thomas Awbrey born c. 1255.

Wolcott's research:
"Dwnn Vol II, page 57 lists 3 consecutive Thomas Aubreys who married, respectively, ladies born c. 1205, 1230 and 1300. There must have been a Thomas Aubrey born c. 1255 since Nest ferch Owain Gethin married a Thomas ap Thomas born c. 1285. Likewise, there must have been a Thomas Aubrey born c. 1315 since Crisly ferch Philip born c. 1360 married a Richard ap Thomas Aubrey born c. 1350. It is just a matter of keeping the pedigree both chronologically stable as well as maintaining the exact sequence of Aubrey male names cited in these marriages. Each citation gives the name of the Aubrey groom and his father's name, but that ancestry is carried no further."

Thomas Awbrey born c. 1285. This individual is listed in Dwnn – " Thomas Awbrey of Aberkunfrig Esg mared Neast do to Owain gethyn of Glyn Taway Esg."

Wolcott's research:
"born c. 1285 who married Nest (c. 1300) ferch Owain Gethin (c. 1265) ap Owain (c. 1235) ap Caradog (c. 1205) ap Gwilym (c. 1170) ap Meurig (c. 1140) ap Cadifor (c. 1110) ap Gwgan Blaidd Bwydd (c. 1075) ap Bleddyn (c. 1045) ap Maenyrch (c. 1015)."

Sir Thomas Awbrey born c. 1315.

Wolcott's research:
"Dwnn Vol II, page 57 lists 3 consecutive Thomas Aubreys who married, respectively, ladies born c. 1205, 1230 and 1300. There must have been a Thomas Aubrey born c. 1255 since Nest ferch Owain Gethin married a Thomas ap Thomas born c. 1285. Likewise, there must have been a Thomas Aubrey born c. 1315 since Crisly ferch Philip born c. 1360 married a Richard ap Thomas Aubrey born c. 1350. It is just a matter of keeping the pedigree both chronologically stable as well as maintaining the exact sequence of Aubrey male names cited in these marriages. Each citation gives the name of the Aubrey groom and his father's name, but that ancestry is carried no further."

Richard Awbrey born c. 1350. This individual is specifically named in Dwnn – "Richard Awbrey of Aberkunfrig Esg mared Crislie doughter to Phe ab Elidr Esg."

See Wolcott's research above regarding birth date.

Part 2 – Explanation of Darrell Wolcott's Genealogical Research

Pedigree Based on Welsh Practices

Wolcott's information on how the Welsh determined their ancestry in the absence of written records:

"For many centuries, the Welshmen had carefully memorized their ancestry to at least 9 generations because that was their basis for laying claim to ancestral lands. When various antiquarians began assembling pedigree data from family bibles, church notations, bardic scrolls, etc (mostly in the 13th to 16th centuries), a wealth of information was preserved for us modern researchers."

Date of Birth Calculations and Names of Individuals

Wolcott writes the following regarding a guideline for calculating dates of birth:

"There was no official recording of births in Wales prior to its integration into England. We do have obits of some of the more important men which were recorded in either the Welsh Annals or in the Bruts i.e. Chronicles of the Princes."
"Our approach has been to construct a timeline into which each succeeding generation must fit and which must closely parallel that of other families where marriage matches are claimed. And where persons can be securely identified, to choose a timeline which also accommodates Brut entries, extant grant and charter documents and official governmental records."
For example, Wolcott uses the family histories of the Gunters and Havards who were associates of Sir Reginald Awbrey. Other family histories used in his work are those of the Celtic Welsh families that are intertwined with Awbreys through marriage. The first of several is Thomas Awbrey born c. 1220.

Wolcott further states:

"Our work has disclosed a multitude of omitted generations in extant pedigrees, more than a few men who have been confused with men of the same patronymic name and some who have clearly been attached to the wrong ancestors. Although the "emendments" we suggest are not always supported by any prior authority, they are supported by logical reasoning and the resulting pedigrees are chronologically stable. In most cases, the reasons why those errors crept into the pedigrees can be seen and understood.
One of the most frequent errors historians and genealogists have made is the dating of men based on occurrences in such official documents. The vast majority of such "occurrences" give, at most, the patronymic name, i.e. A ap B. Unless the record further identifies the man with other data which could only fit a single A ap B, any conclusion that he is the same man as the A ap B ap C ap D in a pedigree is just a guess which, if wrong, can seriously distort one's timeline for the family in the pedigree."

Wolcott advises that when a missing generation is to be added, the given name selected is that of the father following the custom of the times. An example: Reginald Awbrey

Wolcott provides this background regarding the age difference for a married couple:

"In the 11th century, a man did not normally take a wife before age 25 or so, and then chose a lady about age 14/15. A typical "first wife" was normally 10/15 years younger than her husband. The c. 1035 Richard de Clare should be expected to choose a wife born c. 1045/50 and bear children born 1060x1080."

Regarding Other Sources

Wolcott on Peter C. Bartrum:

Wolcott writes the following regarding the valuable work done by Peter C. Bartrum in Welsh Genealogies – AD 300 – 1400. His complete analysis of Bartrum's work can be seen at The Bartrum "Welsh Genealogies" by Darrell Wolcott

"It is our belief the single most important shortcoming of the Bartrum charts was his decision not to estimate birthdates any nearer than within a 33 1/3 year window...his "generation" dating scheme. That much "wiggle room" allows the acceptance of a lady born, say c. 1180, marrying a man born c. 1130, on the grounds they appear only a single generation apart (he falls into Bartrum's generation 4 and she into generation 5). Perhaps he began, then abandoned, a more precise dating scheme when it disclosed too many mismatches. We have had much success with a dating scheme in which each person is assigned a birth date within a 5 year window, but recognize when several generations in a row pass with no cited marriages, the intermediate men may be dated less precisely until a marriage is found to restore the near-precision of our estimates.
Like Bartrum, we have found the more ancient pedigrees contain much less problematical material than those compiled in the 16th century and thereafter. The works of Gruffudd Hiraethog, Gutyn Owain, Ieuan Brechfa, Robert Vaughan and others of the medieval period have kept extant much material which would have been otherwise lost. But none of those genealogists thought it important to adhere to a chronological timeline, resulting in endless repetition of material with patently impossible family constructions.
So long as today's researchers understand that Bartrum was NOT attempting to portray actual and feasible family charts, but limited his purpose to summarizing the material found in other manuscripts, his work can be very helpful. It should not, however, be cited as the principle source to "prove" any asserted facts. We have seen many cases where he linked unrelated men to the wrong same-named father. The citations were correct, their compilation into a chart was not.
One final observation: the charts and indexes are not a self-contained work. Lines and sources are carried back only until they connect to one of his two earlier works: Early Welsh Genealogical Tracts published in book form in 1966, and Pedigrees of the Welsh Tribal Patriarchs published in the National Library of Wales Journal, vol xiii, in 1963. Both those works must be at hand to complete the pedigrees which are continued in the 1974 Welsh Genealogies AD 300-1400."

Wolcott on Lewys Dwnn, Rev. Jones-Davies, Theophilus Jones:

"Dwnn is one of the sources for Welsh pedigrees, but ranks only as modestly credible. While none of his material is deliberately falsified, he does repeat some fictions created by earlier men. His biggest problem, however, is the failure to consider chronology in his family trees. Thus, he leaves some large time gaps in many of his pedigrees.
I have found that the very early manuscripts (say prior to 1200) contain a lot less doubtful material than those which date from the 1600's. To the extent that any source appears to be influenced by the writings of men like Geoffrey of Monmouth or Iolo Morgannwg, that influence must be discounted when using that source.
Mostly, my sources are exactly the same ones used by Peter Bartrum. His major errors come NOT from bad sources, but from his compiling many separate citations into a single cohesive family. Most of the individual citations extend a man's ancestry only 4 or 5 generations; to assemble a family covering several hundred years, one must connect several of these limited citations. And every time you connect two citations from separate sources, there is the opportunity for error. Many families had several cousin lines, all living in the same general area in Wales, who repeated long strings of names where the identically named men lived one or more generations apart. While it seems tempting to connect an A ap B ap C an D ap E from one source to a C ap D ap E ap F ap G found in another source, the second is not necessarily an extension of the first. One must be able to establish a timeline for each separate citation BEFORE you connect them together. In this, Bartrum failed literally hundreds of times in creating his charts.
The Rev Jones-Davies appears to be a sincere researcher, but his opinions are no better nor worse than the opinions of others. One must "accept with extreme caution" the words of ANY historian. Sure there is some doubtful material in Theophilius Jones' work, but also much that is widely accepted as authentic.
The belief that a 13th century "burgess" of Brecon could not also be a landowner is a misleading concept. Other men who appear on a List of Burgesses for a city were young sons of quite wealthy lords/landowners who merely had not yet inherited their father's lands because that father was yet living. Burgess means citizen; these men took up residence in a town but may have been heir to much land elsewhere. In the case of one such list (Welshpool in 1406), many of the men on the list were deemed "citizens" of the town, but are described as men of other places. These "other places" clearly identify their family as some of the best-known Lords of that part of Powys.
If one is going to offer the opinion that Abercynrig did not exist "at the time of Newmarche", why not also add that perhaps Newmarche did not exist either. Why accept one and reject the other? I wasn't there personally to observe, and neither was Jones-Davies."




Collaboration
Comments: 1

Leave a message for others who see this profile.
There are no comments yet.
Login to post a comment.
Thank you for all your work. It has paved the way for those of us who are not as experienced to glean from your knowledge and work.
posted by Briana (Dean) Nei