Wales Profile Improvement Teams

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Wales Project Page | Profile Improvement Teams

Project Coordinator: Steve Bartlett

The Profile Improvement Teams are for those wishing to work on specific aspects of profiles across the whole of Wales, organised into the following teams:

Wales Project Profile Improvement Teams Administrative Guidelines

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Thanks. Liz, for your prompt response. Thanks to strict confinement I have had a lot of time on my hands! I have looked at, although not absorbed because there is just too much, Darrel Wolcott's work about Bartrum. His individual's analysis, grows each month.

In no way should we belittle Bartrum's work, done before the age of computers, presumably with massive card indexes. I cannot imagine how this lifetime's work ever came to fruition. Nevertheless, with current technical support we can do in hours what he must have taken weeks to do. What I find extraordinary is his 33 and 1/3 generation gap. I call it the "vinyl LP" decision. On my own Family Tree maker database of over 14,000 individuals, none verified before 1400, my average is 24 and a bit. When I estimate a birthdate from the marriage date I go back 23 years, or 24 years from the firstborn date. The only justification I can surmise is that he made a fundamental but understandable error in taking the average age of the mother over her child-bearing age. If we then mix in the common situation in medieval times the first-born being to a mother of about 17, his figuring becomes worse and worse. Indeed it is not outside the bounds of possibility that there were almost 2 generations in Bartrum's vinyl LP Enough of that, Thanks again for your response. I am now looking at the Gwentian Chronicles with my beady eye. There have been several suggestions that it was written in the 16th century and was, at very least, imaginative. That puts a whole new slant on things. Steve

posted by Steve Bartlett
Hi! Just wanted to share a couple of points about the Bartrum Project, which you may find as a source on many profiles.

The Bartrum Project (digitization of "Welsh Genealogies AD 300- 1500" by Peter C. Bartrum)

First, the server that hosts the project is frequently down for maintenance and/or overwhelmed by traffic. Please do not delete the link if you get the message that the server is unavailable (and I have sometimes gotten that message for an entire weekend or longer!).

Second, Aberystwyth University, which hosts the project, recently moved from http:// to https:// - all of the http:// links will not go where they should, but if you add an s to http, the link is restored & will go to the correct page (provided the server is available).

Cheers, Liz

posted by Liz (Noland) Shifflett
Thanks Liz. I have been having problems with old links to NLW. It may be the same situation.
posted by Stuart Awbrey
Hi there Liz,

As this extraordinary work is examined in more detail particularly by Centre for the Study for Ancient Wales, the less likely I see it as a reliable source. I think extreme care should be used when using it as the sole verifiable source. From the Centre's impeccably referenced studies it is clear that Bartrum conjoined generations from time to time, I am not suggesting wilfully. I would be interested in your views

posted by Steve Bartlett
Speaking of the Center for the Study of Ancient Wales - see its home page at

Please see Darrell Wolcott's article, 'The Bartrum "Welsh Genealogies"', at

To quote from that article: "So long as today's researchers understand that Bartrum was NOT attempting to portray actual and feasible family charts, but limited his purpose to summarizing the material found in other manuscripts, his work can be very helpful."

Another of Wolcott's articles is worth mentioning here, as he mentions in his Bartrum article that he believes 'the single most important shortcoming of the Bartrum charts was his decision not to estimate birthdates any nearer than within a 33 1/3 year window...his "generation" dating scheme.'

The article: 'Generational Gaps and the Welsh Laws' at

edit - forgot to add the link to the home page

posted by Liz (Noland) Shifflett
edited by Liz (Noland) Shifflett
Hi Liz,

Steve's post reminded me I had not included Bartrum on the new research page -

I added it today along with the link to Wolcott's paper that describes the problem with the span between generations that Steve described.

Next, I need to revise the Sourcerers Team page to link in some way to the sources on the Research page.

Liz, Steve, let me know if the Bartrum link needs revision.

Regards, Stuart

posted by Stuart Awbrey