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Wish information

SAYLE: George Albert Edward 1875 - 1964 (Sayle - 265). I have the birth cert (Portsea, Southampton, England UK) for George but cannot trace any marriage for his parents - stated on the cert as John SAYLE and Elizabeth Mary SAYLE nee PORTER.

There are too many people with these names and of an appropriate age.

George is not on the 1881 or 1891 censuses. In the 1901 census for Essex: West Ham: Canning Town he states he was born in Sandringham, Norfolk (England, UK). So I consider he was there in his childhood and thinks he was born there.

Without tracing either parent - John SAYLE for preference - I cannot trace this line further back.

All ideas and help much appreciated.

Profile: George Albert Edward Sayle

Conclusion

Working backwards, we definitely know that Elizabeth Mary Robbins is Elizabeth Mary Sayle, as her estate is handled by her half brother, JAS Parrish.

Elizabeth Mary Robbins was previously EM Andrews, see the 1903 marriage.^[1]

EM Andrews was previously EM Cottingham.^[2].

EM Cottingham was EM Sayle when she married.^[3], father's name Thomas Sayle.

EM Cottingham, in the 1891 census, is listed with two sons, Thomas and George.^[4]

Thomas Cottingham senior was listed as a bachelor on his marriage record, and there is no previous marriage for him. Additionally, the George Cottingham on this census is never seen again, including as a death record. There is another GAE Cottingham, but he is a different person, on his family's 1891 census, and could not be this one. George is a farrier, and was born in 1875. GAE Sayle was born in 1875 and is a farrier in all of his later records.^[5][6][7]

Back to Elizabeth Mary. Her birth family was reasonably well off--Robert Sayle of John Lewis was an uncle, and most of the rest of the family had multiple servants and large properties. It's quite likely a family of this level might have wanted a daughter pregnant outside of marriage to hide that fact. Porter was a common name in the neighboring areas, based on a look at other pages of the 1861 and 1871 census. Perhaps the father was a Porter, perhaps she went to stay with a porter family in portsea to have her baby (there were several in the Portsea area, who knows if any of them were related to the Norfolk families), or perhaps she just picked a name she was familiar with when she registered the baby's name.

There's nothing absolutely conclusive to link Elizabeth Mary Sayle with George Albert Edward Sayle. But there are a lot of coincidences that make this a very strong possibility.

Further Areas to Research

• There are detailed family trees on Family Search for the Sayle family. It may be possible to find living family members to ask for DNA tests.
• The newspaper article looking for heirs of GAE Sayle lists a law office that is still in operation today. It might be worth asking them about their records.

Information identified

George Albert Edward Sayle

In the 1901 census George (age 25), Farrier & Cattle Dealer, was the single head of household in West Ham, Essex, England, United Kingdom.^[5]

George A Sayle Head Single M 25 Farrier & Cattle Dealer Sandringham, Norfolk

In the 1911 census George (age 36), Farrier, was a married husband in Wandsworth, London, England, United Kingdom.^[6]

George Sayle Husband Married M 36 Farrier Lewisham, Kent

Maggie Sayle Wife Married F 31 Lewisham, Kent

Mark Sayle Son M 5 Streatham, Surrey

Frank Sayle Son M 3 Streatham, Surrey

Mildred Sayle Daughter F 1 Streatham, Surrey

• 1921 Census - 1921 Census: "1921 Census Of England & Wales"
  Archive: The National Archives; Series: RG 15; Piece number: 01251; District reference: RD 12 RS 1 ED 9
  FindMyPast Image - FindMyPast Transcription (accessed 24 December 2023)
  George E Sayle (47), married, Farrier, head of household at 3, Clarks Mews, St Giles in the Fields & St George Bloomsbury in St Giles registration district in London & Middlesex, England. Born in Portsmouth, Hampshire, England. Employed by Mr Follar Vetrinary Surgeon.

In the 1939 register George (age 66), Blacksmith, was recorded as married at 59, Penge, Kent, England.^[7]

George A Sayle Married M 10 Jun 1873 Blacksmith (year is wrong, but date is correct)

Margaret E Sayle Married F 11 Nov 1879 Unpaid Domestic Duties

John R Sayle Single M 28 Feb 1912 Fitter Loose Leaf Ledger

Edith M Sayle Single F 8 Nov 1914 Waitress

Walter L Sayle Single M 16 Feb 1916 Specialized Tool Maker in Loory Buttons

George T Sayle Single M 26 Sep 1921 Stores Keeper Grocers Shop

Elizabeth Mary Sayle

Given the total lack of information on both the parents listed on the birth certificate, we wondered if there was a possibility that George Albert Edward Sayle was illegitimate. Therefore we started looking for Elizabeth Mary Sayle.

Elizabeth, daughter of Thomas Sayle & Mary Anne, was baptized on 25 Feb 1849 in Hilgay, Norfolk, England.^[8]

Elizabeth's birth was registered in the Jan-Feb-Mar quarter of 1849 in the Downham Union district.^[9]

In the 1851 census Elizabeth (age 2) was the daughter of Thomas Sayle on Westgate Street, Southery, Norfolk, England.^[10]

Thomas Sayle Head Married M 31 Farmer Southery, Norfolk

Mary Ann Sayle Wife Married F 27 Tiverton, Devon

Thomas Henry Sayle Son Unmarried M 4 Scholar Hilgay, Norfolk

John Sayle Son M 3 Scholar Hilgay, Norfolk

Elizabeth Mary Sayle Daughter F 2 Hilgay, Norfolk

Elizabeth Johnson Servant Unmarried F 18 General Servant Hockwold, Norfolk

In the 1861 census Elizabeth (age 11) was the wife of James Parish in Southery, Norfolk, England, United Kingdom.^[11]

James Parish Head Married M 35 Farmer Gayton Marsh, Lincolnshire

Mary Ann Parish Wife Married F 36 Tiverton, Devonshire

Thomas Henry Sayle Wife Unmarried M 14 Hilgay, Norfolk

Elizabeth Mary Sayle Wife F 11 Hilgay, Norfolk

Robert Lee Sayle Wife Unmarried M 9 Southery, Norfolk

Susan Sayle Wife Unmarried F 7 Southery, Norfolk

George William Sayle Wife Unmarried M 5 Southery, Norfolk

Jane Porter Servant Unmarried F 23 House Servant Southery, Norfolk

In the 1871 census Elizabeth (age 22) was the daughter of James Parrish in Hilgay, Norfolk, England, United Kingdom.^[12]

James Parrish Head Widowed M 46 Farmer Gayton, Lincolnshire

Elizebeth M Sayle Daughter F 22 Hilgay, Norfolk

Susan Sayle Daughter F 16 Southery, Norfolk

Jas Au Sayle Parrish Son M 9 Scholar Southery, Norfolk

Martha Riches Servant F 16 Servant Southery, Norfolk

Elizabeth, daughter of Thomas Sayle, married Thomas James Cottingham (1852-bef.1885) on 16 May 1880 in Saint Matthew, Essex Road: Essex Road, Islington, England.^[13]

Elizabeth's marriage was registered in the Apr-May-Jun quarter of 1880 in the Islington district.^[14]

The two of them had a child Thomas James Sayle Cottingham (1881-).

There's no sign of the family in the 1881 census, and by 1885 Thomas Sr has died.

In the 1891 census Mary (age 41) was the widowed head of household in Hackney, London, England, United Kingdom.^[4]

Mary Cottingham Head Widowed F 41 Norfolk

George Cottingham Son Single M 16 Farrier Surrey

Thomas J Cottingham Son Single M 11 Scholar Surrey

Arthur Highes Boarder Single M 17 Milk Boy Wales

Elizabeth's marriage to Adam Andrews was registered in the Oct-Nov-Dec quarter of 1903 in the West Ham district.^[2]

In the 1911 census Mary (age 63), Assistant, was the wife of Adam Andrews in Burnham, Buckinghamshire, England, United Kingdom.^[15]

Adam Andrews Head Married M 75 Beer Retailer Folkstone, Kent

Mary Andrews Wife Married F 63 Assistant Lyn, Norfolk

T Cottingham Visitor Single M 30 Blacksmith Brixton, Surrey

Andrew Adams commited suicide in 1912:

• https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-viewer?issue=BL%2F0002104%2F19120706&page=7&article=128&stringtohighlight=elizabeth+mary+andrews+burnham
• https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-viewer?issue=BL%2F0001609%2F19120905&page=1&article=021&stringtohighlight=elizabeth+mary+andrews+burnham
• https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-viewer?issue=BL%2F0001609%2F19120718&page=7&article=128&stringtohighlight=elizabeth+mary+andrews+burnham
• https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-viewer?issue=BL%2F0001609%2F19120704&page=2&article=028&stringtohighlight=elizabeth+mary+andrews+burnham

Another Marriage:

Elizabeth M Andrews's marriage to William Robbins was registered in the Apr-May-Jun quarter of 1916 in the Wokingham district.^[1]

In the 1921 census Elizabeth Robbins (age 72), Needle Work (Retired), was a widowed inmate at Fulham Workhouse, Fulham Palace Road, Fulham, London & Middlesex, England.^[16]

Elizabeth died on 4 Jun 1927 in Huntingdonshire, England and their estate passed probate on 19 Aug 1927 in London, England.

ROBBINS Elizabeth Mary of West End Earith Huntingdonshire widow died 4 June 1927 Probate London 19 August to James Arthur Sayle Parrish retired butcher. Effects £428 35. 1ıd.^[17]

Profiles Set up

Mary Ann Lee (Parrish/Sayle) - Lee-47442
Thomas Sayle - Sayle-381 (and birth family)
Thomas James Cottingham - Cottingham-700
Thomas James Sayle Cottingham - Cottingham-701
Adam Andrews Andrews-23671

Other Avenues of Research Considered

Elizabeth Mary Porter (Unlikely)

Information found by NG Hill

Possible Birth Index for Mother: Elizabeth Mary Porter birth registered Apr-May-Jun 1860 in Stockbridge, Hampshire, England.

• "England & Wales, Civil Registration Birth Index, 1837-1915", Original data: England and Wales Civil Registration Indexes. London, England: General Register Office; Volume: 2c; Page: 59, Ancestry Sharing Link (free access)
  Ancestry au Record 8912 #28598163 (subscription required, accessed 24 December 2023), Elizabeth Mary Porter birth registered Apr-May-Jun 1860 in Stockbridge, Hampshire, England.

Information found by Hilary:

In the 1871 census Elizabeth Porter (age 12) was the daughter of Edmund Porter in Portsea, Hampshire, England. 1871 Census: "1871 England Census", database with images
The National Archives; Kew, London, England; 1871 England Census; Class: RG10; Piece: 1128; Folio: 71; Page: 36; GSU roll: 827775; ED, institution, or vessel: 11; Household schedule number: 155
Ancestry Sharing Link - Ancestry uk Record 7619 #10935624 (accessed 25 December 2023)
Elizabeth Porter (12) daughter in household of Edmund Porter (46) in Portsea in Portsea Island registration district in Hampshire, England. Born in Portsea, Hampshire, England.

Edmund Porter Head M 46 Portsea, Hampshire, England

Mary Porter Wife F 50 Havant, Hampshire, England

Henry Porter Son M 19 Titchfield, Hampshire, England

Hannah Porter Daughter F 16 Portsea, Hampshire, England

Elizabeth Porter Daughter F 12 Portsea, Hampshire, England

Jane Porter Daughter F 9 Portsea, Hampshire, England

John Sayle (Unlikely)

All information found by Hilary:

In the 1861 census John Sayle (age 20) was a ord (ordinary seaman), onboard the Mersey a Royal Navy ship, in Portsmouth Harbour, Vessels, Hampshire, England. 1861 Census: "1861 England Census", database with images
Class: Rg 9; Piece: 4483; Folio: 5; Page: 7; GSU roll: 543292; ED, institution, or vessel: Mersey; Household schedule number: 1
Ancestry Sharing Link - Ancestry uk Record 8767 #14007088 (accessed 25 December 2023)
John Sayle (20) ord (ordinary seaman) in household of William Bilton (31) in Portsmouth Harbour, Hampshire, England. Born in Liverpool, Lancashire, England.

John Sayle Ord (ordinary seaman) M 20 Liverpool, Lancashire, England

or

In the 1861 census John Sayle (age 20) was a ord 2nd class (ordinary seaman), onboard the Cossack a Royal Navy ship, in Portsmouth Harbour, Vessels, Hampshire, England. 1861 Census: "1861 England Census", database with images
Class: Rg 9; Piece: 4484; Folio: 28; Page: 5; GSU roll: 543292; ED, institution, or vessel: Cossack; Household schedule number: 1
Ancestry Sharing Link - Ancestry uk Record 8767 #14010249 (accessed 25 December 2023)
John Sayle (20) ord 2nd class (ordinary seaman) in household of Edward Jones (28) in Portsmouth Harbour, Vessels in Anglesey registration district in Hampshire, England. Born in Douglas, Isle of Man, Isle of Man.

John Sayle Ord 2nd class (ordinary seaman) M 20 Douglas, Isle of Man, Isle of Man

In the Hampshire Advertiser May 11th 1861 one John Sayle a sailor was reported to have been involved in an attempted break in to a house. He was discharged.

George Albert Edward Cottingham (Ruled Out)

Birth:

Birth for George Albert Edward Cottingham

Marriage:

• Marriage: "Nottinghamshire Marriages Index 1528-1929"
  FindMyPast Transcription (accessed 29 December 2023)
  George Albert Edward Cottingham marriage to Leah Haydock on 2 Jun 1906 in Bestwood Park, Nottinghamshire, England.

Things searched

• The birth Certificate obtained from PM states that the father is John Sayle and the mother is Elizabeth Mary Porter
• Birth registration on GRO as occasional copy A. Changed?
• Birth registration on FMP states - to mother's maiden name
• Marriage certificate: States the father is George Albert Edward Sayle.

Surnames to search: Sayle, Sayer

• Tried looking for another child born with the surname Sayle and mother maiden name Porter but not successfully

• Tried to find obituary and marriage confirmations on Newspapers. - not successful

• Tried looking at a porter that married a Sayle. Nothing that matches the names.

• Searched all Sayles in the census records of 1881 and 1891.

• Scoured the newspapers for Elizabeth Mary Porter/Sayles, John Sayles and George Sayles.

Things to consider

• why was the birth registration on the GRO noted as occasional copy A? (the FMP has a - for MMN however looking at some others around this time there was the same, so might not have been a change of MMN)
• Birth location from 1911 and 1921 differs.
• There is a comment on the profile about relation to Robert Sayle. - Wikipedia - If we have the right connection Robert Sayle would have been Elizabeth Mary Sayles uncle (Thomas' brother - see Robert Sayle)
• His father could have been a seaman in the Royal Navy if he was born in Portsmouth as the birth certificate states.
• There are Sayles in Norfolk, Liverpool/Birkenhead and the Isles of Man
• He was a Farrier did this require training an apprenticeship
• Did his father die before 1904 (the marriage) or alive - the name is presumed incorrect is the fact he dead correct?
• The father's name on the marriage was given as George so he probably didn't know his father or the birth was not correct.
• Following his career as a Farrier may provide some clues. Was he an apprentice blacksmith in 1891? Was he a member of The Worshipful Society of Farriers?

Elves that worked on wish

NG Hill Hilary Gadsby Steph Hill Heather Jenkinson Celia Marsh

Sources

1. ↑ ^{1.0 1.1} Marriage Registration: "England & Wales Marriage Index", database
   FreeBMD Entry Information (accessed 29 December 2023)
   Andrews, Elizabeth M.
   GRO Reference: 1916 Apr-May-Jun in Wokingham Volume 2c Page 937.
2. ↑ ^{2.0 2.1} Marriage Registration: "England and Wales Marriage Registration Index, 1837-2005"
   citing 1903, quarter 4, vol. 4A, p. 133, West Ham, Essex, England, General Register Office, Southport, England
   FamilySearch Record: 26QH-XN6 (accessed 29 December 2023)
3. ↑
4. ↑ ^{4.0 4.1} 1891 Census: "England and Wales Census, 1891"
   citing PRO RG 12, London county, subdistrict, The National Archives of the UK, Kew, Surrey
   FamilySearch Record: 3RGD-XPZ (accessed 29 December 2023)
   FindMyPast Image (subscription required).
5. ↑ ^{5.0 5.1} 1901 Census: "England and Wales Census, 1901"
   citing Canning Town subdistrict, PRO RG 13, The National Archives, Kew, Surrey
   FamilySearch Record: X9NZ-CFR (accessed 29 December 2023)
   FindMyPast Image (subscription required).
6. ↑ ^{6.0 6.1} > 1911 Census: "England and Wales Census, 1911"
   citing PRO RG 14, The National Archives of the UK, Kew, Surrey
   FamilySearch Record: XW5K-K12 (accessed 29 December 2023)
   FindMyPast Image (subscription required).
7. ↑ ^{7.0 7.1} 1939 Register: "1939 England and Wales Register"
   The National Archives; Kew, London, England; 1939 Register; Reference: Rg 101/1271h; Line Number: 21; Schedule Number: 269; Sub Schedule Number: 2
   Ancestry Record 61596 #13432325 (accessed 29 December 2023)
   George A Sayle (born 10 Jun 1873), married, Blacksmith, at 59, Penge, Kent, England.
8. ↑ Baptism: "England, Norfolk Bishop's Transcripts, 1685-1941"
   citing Digital film/folder number: 004033336; FHL microfilm: 1526658; Image number: 488; Packet letter: A; Indexing batch: C02366-6
   FamilySearch Record: 27HL-YMW (accessed 29 December 2023)
   FamilySearch Image: 939F-R682-8
9. ↑ Birth Registration: "England & Wales General Register Office"
   GRO Online Indexes - Birth (accessed 29 December 2023)
   Sayle, Elizabeth Mary (Mother's maiden name: Lee).
   GRO Reference: 1849 Jan-Feb-Mar in Downham Union Volume 13 Page 71. (Note: there is a Copy A as well, suggesting that something was corrected on the form.)
10. ↑ 1851 Census: "England and Wales Census, 1851"
    citing Southery, Norfolk, England, p. 39; citing PRO HO 107, The National Archives of the UK, Kew, Surrey
    FamilySearch Record: SGXD-HVM (accessed 29 December 2023)
    FindMyPast Image (subscription required).
11. ↑ 1861 Census: "England and Wales Census, 1861"
    citing PRO RG 9, The National Archives, Kew, Surrey
    FamilySearch Record: M7N2-B89 (accessed 29 December 2023)
    FindMyPast Image (subscription required).
12. ↑ 1871 Census: "England and Wales Census, 1871"
    citing The National Archives of the UK
    FamilySearch Record: VFNP-YCC (accessed 29 December 2023)
    FindMyPast Image (subscription required).
13. ↑ Marriage: "London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1938"
    London Metropolitan Archives; London, England, UK; London Church of England Parish Registers; Reference Number: P83/MTW/011
    Ancestry Record 1623 #7027036 (accessed 29 December 2023)
    Elizabeth Mary Sayle marriage to Thomas James Cottingham on 16 May 1880 in Saint Matthew, Essex Road: Essex Road, Islington, England.
14. ↑ Marriage Registration: "England and Wales Marriage Registration Index, 1837-2005"
    citing 1880, quarter 2, vol. 1B, p. 476, Islington, London, England, General Register Office, Southport, England
    FamilySearch Record: 2DRX-BV7 (accessed 29 December 2023)
15. ↑ 1911 Census: "England and Wales Census, 1911"
    citing PRO RG 14, The National Archives of the UK, Kew, Surrey
    FamilySearch Record: X7VG-3HM (accessed 29 December 2023)
    FindMyPast Image (subscription required).
16. ↑ 1921 Census: "1921 Census Of England & Wales", database with images
    Archive: The National Archives; Series: RG 15; Piece number: 00324; District reference: RD 3B RS 1 ED 38, 39
    FindMyPast Image - FindMyPast Transcription (accessed 29 December 2023)
    Elizabeth Robbins (72), widowed inmate, Needle Work (Retired), at Fulham Workhouse in Fulham registration district in London & Middlesex, England. Born in Norfolk, England.
17. ↑ Probate: "England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1995"
    Original data: Principal Probate Registry. Calendar of the Grants of Probate and Letters of Administration made in the Probate Registries of the High Court of Justice in England
    Ancestry Record 1904 #4162783 (accessed 29 December 2023)
    Elizabeth Mary Robbins probate on 19 Aug 1927 in London, England. Died 4 Jun 1927 in Huntingdonshire, England.