Richard Thayer Sr.

Richard Thayer Sr. (1562 - 1625)

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Richard Thayer Sr.
Born in Thornbury, Gloucestershire, Englandmap
Ancestors ancestors
Husband of — married in Thornbury, Gloucester, Englandmap
Descendants descendants
Died in Thornbury, Gloucester, Englandmap
Profile last modified | Created 14 Sep 2010
This page has been accessed 4,303 times.

Contents

Biography

Name

Name: Richard Thayer[1][2]
of Thornbury, Gloucestershire, England.
Orthographic variations: Thayer, Tayer, Tawier, Tawyer, Tawer, Taire, Tayre. The most common spelling in this early period was Tayer followed by Tawier. A standarized spelling of Thayer will be used in the biography of this profile for convenience and to avoid confusion.
He is the son of John Thayer of Thornbury (d. 1585) and his wife Mary. See the analysis on the page of his grandfather for how this was deduced.
This Richard Thayer is generally believed to be the father the New England immigrants Richard Thayer and Thomas Thayer.[3][4] Because the parish records in Thornbury do not record the names of parents but rather only the names of godparents/witnesses, it is almost impossible to be certain of which child belongs which Thayer parent. This is also complicated by the fact that initial published extracts of the Thornbury parish register made numerous errors. This made the initial attempts at reconstructing the family to also contain errors. Ojeda should not used at all, and Holman should be used with some caution.

Birth

Baptized: 2 August 1562 at Thornbury, Gloucestershire, England.
"Ricardus Tawier baptizatus erat secunda die Augustij Anno pd [1562] Richard Cheyne et Walterius Fookes et Elizabeth Picher compatrini" [1][2]

Marriages and Children

None of the wives and most of the presumed children cannot be known with certainty. The parish registers of Thornbury do not record the names of parents, but rather only the names of godparents/witnesses. This makes the construction of Thayer families a little bit of guess work and deductive reasoning.
Married: 1st - Anne Unknown by 1585. On 10 November 1590, below the burial record of her mother, is recorded the baptism of Ann Thayer: "An Tawier daughter of the aforenamed An Tawier baptized the same day and hour that the mother was buried."[1] This is generally thought to be the record which gives us the name of Richard Thayer's first wife as Ann, though there is no way to connect either the child or the mother to Richard. At least one well researched and recent work call her Ann Gibbs - it is not clear what the evidence is to support this LNAB.[5]
Married: 2nd - Ursula Dimery about 1590. Again this marriage is guesswork. There is no marriage record, or primary record of any kind that tells us that Richard Thayer's wife was named Ursula or that she was a Dimery. This is apparently based on the fact that Richard Dymery named in his will John Tayer, Richard Tayer and Ursula Tayer.[6] When John Tayer was baptized in 1593 his godfathers were John Tayer and Richard Dimry; if Richard Thayer's wife was a Dimery then these would both be his uncles (presumably). Additionally, William Dimery was a godfather to Thomas Thayer in 1596, Richard Dimery was a godfather to Richard Thayer in 1601, and Thomas Dimery was godfather to Catherine Thayer in 1604. It would seem highly likely that there is a connection between the Thayer and Dimery family, but it is a real leap to assume that the connection is that Richard married a Dimery and that she was the Ursula Thayer named in the 1598 will of Richard Dimery.

Children

The parish register of Thornbury does not name the parents of those baptized so it is almost impossible to say for certain that the children below are the children of this Richard Thayer. Also, almost no wills have been found which would help sort the children out. Several attempts have been made at reconstructing the family Richard Thayer. "The Thayer Family of Thornbury" by Tomas Thayer Ojeda in 1906 should not be used; unable to sort the children he essentially made every child baptized at Thornbury a child of this Richard.[7] It was also based on parish register extracts which contained multiple errors. A more reasonable attempt was made Mary Lovering Holman in her "Ancestry of Charles Stinson Pillsbury", but it should be noted that it was also based the flawed parish register transcripts.[4] More recently, "The Ancestry of Eva Belle Kempton" also attempted to reconstruct the family.[5] In all cases, the children assigned to Richard Thayer are presumptions based on dates and the names of godparents.


Probable children of Richard Thayer and first wife (Ann Unknown/Gibbs?):
  1. Margaret Thayer. Baptized 23 December 1589 at Thornbury (Thomas Gibes godfather Margaret Griffin & Mary Mer­ryat godmothers). One of her godparents was Thomas Gibbs, which might support the theory that her mother's name was Ann Gibbs.
  2. Ann Thayer. Baptized 10 November 1590 at Thornbury (Richard Pullen godfather Sicely Jones & Margaret Griffing godmother[s]). She was baptized in the "same day and hour that her mother was buried." This is the record which is taken to mean that her mother's name was Ann, and that Richard had a second wife.
Probable children of Richard Thayer and second wife (Ursula Dimery?):
  1. John Tayer. Baptized 17 April 1593 at Thornbury .


Rejected children:
These children may be found on the internet and/or in Ojeda.
  1. Mary Thayer. Baptized 1 March 1594/5 at Thornbury (godparents: Thomas Holdbrook, Als Hilpe, gentlewom[an], Agnes Jones). From these godparents, she is a daughter of John Thayer and Joan Lawrence.[2]
Old Ojeda Error Children
  1. Catherine b. d. 1586
  2. Alice b. Oct 23 1587 d. Nov 15 1612


Children by. Dinery(sic., prob. Ursula Alice Dimery)[8]
  1. Joane b. d. 1592-3
  2. John b. April 17 1593 d. May 15 1606-7
  3. Mary b. March 1595-6, unm. 1636
  4. Thomas b. Aug 16 1596
  5. Wilfrey b. Jan 1 1599-1600 d. Jun 12 1622
  6. Richard b. April 5 1601
  7. Catherine b. Feb 24 1603 m. John Dawnee July 4 1631
  8. William b. May 5 1605
  9. Margaret b. Jun 10 1606, unm. 1632
  10. Agnes Taire(?) b. Mar 15 1607-8
  11. John b. d. 1610
  12. John b. Dec 26 1611 d. Feb 20 1627-8.


these need confirming and citing

By Ursula Dimery:

  1. Joanne Thayer
  2. Wilfrey Thayer
  3. Sicely Thayer
  4. Catherine Thayer
  5. John II Thayer

Notes

Immigrant children: Based on chronology, he is believed to be the father of the New England immigrants, Thomas and Richard Thayer. This is a point which is not conclusively proven.
Old Notes which need researching

He died there in 1625, and was buried at Brockworth, Gloucestershire, England.[9][10][11][12]

Common Errors to Avoid

Date of second marriage: This profile previously gave as the marriage date to Ursula Dimery as 11 Feb 1592 in Thornbury. No such marriage exists in the Thornbury parish records.
Name of second wife: She is often found on the internet as Ursula Alice Dimery. This name is an amalgamation of different theories. She is sometimes called Ursula and she is sometimes called Alice, so the name was made as "Ursula Alice." There is some very small reason to think her name might be Ursula; there is no reason to think her name was Alice. Alice was removed from her name as an error. It should also be noted that there is no primary evidence that her first name was Ursula or that her LNAB was Dimery. The circumstantial evidence for both of these names is not very convincing, and her proper name should probably be Unknown Unknown.

Sources

Footnotes and citations:
  1. 1.0 1.1 1.2 The American Genealogist. (April 1998): 81-90, see page 84. Gloucestershire T(h)ayer Ancestry, by Clifford L. Stott.
  2. 2.0 2.1 2.2 The American Genealogist. (July 1998): 209-219. Gloucestershire T(h)ayer Ancestry, by Clifford L. Stott.
  3. The American Genealogist, vol. 59 (1983): 81-90. The English Origins of John Briggs of Taunton, Mass., by Douglas Richardson.
  4. 4.0 4.1 Holman, Mary Lovering. Ancestry of Charles Stinson Pillsbury and John Sargent Pillsbury, vol. 1. (1938): pages 443-449.
  5. 5.0 5.1 Smith, Dean Crawford and Melinde Lutz Sanborn. The Ancestry of Eva Belle Kempton, 1878-1908: Part 3, The Ancestry of Henry Clay Bartlett, 1832-1892. (Boston, MA: NEHGS, 2004): page 370.
  6. "Gloucestershire, England, Wills and Inventories, 1541-1858", Online database, Ancestry.com. Will and inventory of Richard Dymery 4 October 1598. Ancestry.co.uk image link.
  7. Ojeda, Tomas Thayer , The Thayer Family of Thornbury: A Study Trying its Reconstitution. (Santiago, Chili, 1907): 16-17. Archive.org LINK Do not use this source. It contains many errors.
  8. Tomas Thayer Ojeda, The Thayer Family of Thornbury: A Study Trying its Reconstitution, p. 17-18.
  9. S-109338244 Find-A-Grave Index, Ancestry.com Operations. WHAT MEMORIAL #/URL?
  10. Ancestry Family Trees, Provo, UT, USA: The Generations Network. Family Lines
  11. Godfrey Memorial Library, comp., American Genealogical-Biographical Index (AGBI), Middletown, CT, USA: Godfrey Memorial Library. AGBI
  12. S-1793132743 UK, Extracted Probate Records, Provo, UT: Ancestry.com Operations Inc. 2009. URL??
Source list:
  • Holman, Mary Lovering. Ancestry of Charles Stinson Pillsbury and John Sargent Pillsbury, vol. 1. (1938): pages 443-449. HathiTrust.org LINK
  • Ojeda, Tomas Thayer , The Thayer Family of Thornbury: A Study Trying its Reconstitution. (Santiago, Chili, 1907): 16-17. Archive.org LINK Do not use this source. It contains many errors.
  • Muno, Patricia Thayer, The Thayer - Tayer - Theyer Families of Gloucestershire, England, 1500-1600 (1995).
  • Smith, Dean Crawford and Melinde Lutz Sanborn. The Ancestry of Eva Belle Kempton, 1878-1908: Part 3, The Ancestry of Henry Clay Bartlett, 1832-1892. (Boston, MA: NEHGS, 2004): page 370.
  • New England Historical and Genealogical Register [NEHGR] vol. 60 no. 4 (October 1906):281-88. Tayer (Thayer) Family Entries in the Parish Register of Thornbury, Gloucestershire, England, by Walter Faxon, Edward Henry Whorf, and Henry Ernest Woods. Caution: contains errors, compare to TAG (1998): 81-90. Books.Google.com LINK
  • NEHGR vol. 60 no. 4 (October 1906): 289-91. Abstracts of Wills Relating to the Tayer (Thayer) Family of Thornbury, Gloucestershire, England, by Walter Faxon, Edward Henry Whorf, and Henry Ernest Woods. Books.Google.com LINK
  • The American Genealogist, vol. 59 (1983): 81-90. The English Origins of John Briggs of Taunton, Mass., by Douglas Richardson.


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Images: 1
1625 Brockworth, Gloucestershire parish register
1625 Brockworth, Gloucestershire parish register

Collaboration

On 10 Feb 2019 at 17:12 GMT M Cole wrote:

Thayer-4482 and Thayer-39 appear to represent the same person because: Not sure why this match was previously rejected, as they are clearly intended to be the same person. Please provide a reason before rejecting.

On 24 Jan 2019 at 22:35 GMT Brad Stauf wrote:

I uploaded the Brockworth 1625 parish register page (the year is hard to read but the preceding original title page also seems to say 1625, the year is listed in the index and is in the right place given the preceding and following pages). It might not be 1625, but it does seem to be. There are 2 burials listed, neither are Richard Thayer. He does not appear (that I can tell) on any other page of the register, nor on freereg.org.uk so I would not consider the 1625 death year as certain or even particularly likely.

On 23 Jan 2019 at 18:55 GMT Brad Stauf wrote:

The maiden name of "Gibbs" for Richard's proposed first wife Ann in the 1996 "Eva Belle Kempton" work is not explicitly sourced but seems likely to come from Ojeda's 1907 work on page 16/17 where he lists it with a question mark and, though he does not say so, may be making this connection by virtue of the name of the godfather of Richard & Ann's child (Margaret) i.e. Thomas Gibbs following the same logic as Richard's "Dimry" children who had 3 Dimry godparents. Since "E.B. Kempton" was published before Stott's 1998 TAG vol 73 that identified many Ojeda & Holman errors, the authors probably still relied heavily on Ojeda. Holman made no claim as to the last name of Richard's first wife, nor did Linzee (Parker/Ruggles history, published 1913) so it seems that Ojeda has place of primacy for the (unsourced) source of "Gibbs".

On 23 Jan 2019 at 16:34 GMT Brad Stauf wrote:

Removed image of "The ancestry of Eva Belle Kempton, 1878-1908 by Smith, Dean Crawford; Sanborn, Melinde Lutz Volume 3 Publication date 1996" to avoid copyright violations. Original text available free at https://archive.org/details/ancestryofevabel03smit/page/368

On 19 Nov 2018 at 00:53 GMT M Cole wrote:

There's an article in the March 2007 Thayer Families Assn Newsletter that has some info. Not sure I entirely follow the logic. I can send a copy is someone sends me a pm.

Acknowledges no marriage record. Relies on the 1598 will of Richard Dimery of Oldbury (neighboring parish) names John and Usrula Tayer. In 1598 Richard Thayer's oldest son was John (bp 1593). John's godparents were his uncle John Tayer and Richard Dimery. Godfathers who died before their godson usually made a bequest to that person & parents. "I believe this is adequate to determine that Ursula was the name of Richard Thayer's wife and is reinforced by the fact that Thomas Thayer's first born daughter was named Ursula."

On 18 Nov 2018 at 11:19 GMT Jillaine Smith wrote:

We need to find better source for his marriages; US & Int'l Marriages is a highly questionable Ancestry.com compilation.

On 18 Nov 2018 at 11:14 GMT Jillaine Smith wrote:

Never mind; found it. Brad, you should probably take it down; it's a copyrighted item; the good news is that it seems to be accessible here: https://archive.org/details/ancestryofevabel03smit/page/368

On 18 Nov 2018 at 11:12 GMT Jillaine Smith wrote:

Brad, thanks; where have you uploaded this 1996 work?

On 18 Nov 2018 at 03:21 GMT Brad Stauf wrote:

Uploaded a 1996 work that included Thayer information listing primary sources and secondary sources. I haven't done deep research on the Thayers but the author proposes that Richard's wife was Ann Gibbs. Hopefully this is helpful.

On 20 Sep 2018 at 17:41 GMT Joe Cochoit wrote:

I believe a great deal of incorrect information was added to the is profile based on the work of Ojeda which has been shown to contain numerous errors. I was going to revert all the changes but maybe the PMs would like to take a look. The marriage and the children all need looking at.

more comments


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Categories: Thornbury, Gloucestershire