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Ida (Toeni) le Bigod (aft. 1160 - 1204)

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Ida "Countess of Norfolk" le Bigod formerly Toeni aka de Tosny [uncertain]
Born after in Flamstead, Hertfordshire, Englandmap
Ancestors ancestors
Wife of — married [location unknown]
Descendants descendants
Died in Ripon, Yorkshire, Englandmap
Profile last modified | Created 8 May 2012
This page has been accessed 9,309 times.


Contents

Biography

Name

Different spelling of surname Tony, Toeni, de Toeni, Tosny
A source for spelling surname, "Royal Ancestry" Douglas Richardson 2013 Vol. V. page 171

Ida de Tosny, Countess of Norfolk[1]

House of Tosny or Tosney[1]

Alice's husband's DNB [www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/2378/?back=,2376 article] also has de Tosny, as well as her son's [www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/2376?docPos=2 article].

Note, some sources do not have parents or a surname for her, e.g. "Ida, daughter of ---"[2]

Royal Mistress

ward and mistress of Henry II[1]
Prior to her marriage with Roger Bigod, Ida Toeni was a mistress of Henry II of England. Allegedly, their son is William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury.

Perhaps the most important correction included in this book is the maternity of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury, a well known illegitimate son of King Henry II of England. William has long been thought to have been the product of his father’s illicit affair with “Fair” Rosamond Clifford. In 1979 Vera London published charter evidence which proved that William was actually the son of an unidentified “Countess Ida.” In 1993 Douglas Richardson identified William’s mother as Ida, wife of Roger Bigod, Earl of Norfolk. This identification has been confirmed in recent time by the research of Ray Phair. [3]

1181 Marriage

m. 1181 Roger Bigod, 2nd Earl of Norfolk[1]

Issue

Ida de Tony as mistress to Henry II had one son:

  1. William Longspee

Ida de Tony and her husband Roger le Bigod had five sons and three daughters: [4]

  1. Hugh (5th Earl of Norfolk)[4]Hugh Bigod, 3rd Earl of Norfolk m. 1206 or 1207 Maud Marshal dau. William Marshal[1]
  2. William[4]William Bigod[1]
  3. Roger[4]Roger Bigod[1]
  4. John[4]
  5. Ralph[4]Ralph Bigod[1]
  6. Mary[4]Mary Bigod m. Ralph FitzRobert[1]
  7. Margaret[4]Margery Bigod m. William de Hastings[1]
  8. Ida[4]

Children currently linked in WikiTree who are not verified by Richardson [4]

  1. Thomas
  2. Alice/Adeliza
  3. Unknown Bigod married Basset

Sources

  1. 1.0 1.1 1.2 1.3 1.4 1.5 1.6 1.7 1.8 1.9 Wikipedia: Ida de Tosny
  2. Cawley, Charles, Medieval Lands Project on Roger Bigod, 2nd Earl of Norfolk, Medieval Lands database, Foundation for Medieval Genealogy
  3. Douglas Richardson, Introduction to Plantagenet Ancestry www.royalancestry.net
  4. 4.0 4.1 4.2 4.3 4.4 4.5 4.6 4.7 4.8 4.9 Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry, Volume I, page 362
  • "Royal Ancestry" 2013 by Douglas Richardson Vol. I page 40

Illegitimate child of Henry II, by a mistress, Ida de Tony, daughter of Ralph de Tony (died 1162), by Margaret, daughter of Robert, 2nd Earl of Leicester. Ida later became the wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk (died 1221).

  • Royal Ancestry 2013 D. Richardson Vol. I p. 362-364
  • Magna Carta Ancestry 2011 2nd ed. Vol. I p. 197-200
  • "Royal Ancestry" 2013 by Douglas Richardson Vol. V. page 171

See also:

  • Henry II of England
Illegitimate children:

by Ida, wife of Roger Bigod, Earl of Norfolk: While it had been known for some time that the mother of William was a "countess" Ida, her identity was only recently proven. As one of two known contemporary English countesses named Ida, the wife of Roger Bigod had already been a prime candidate [see Reed (2002), which was going to press just as the crucial discovery was made]. Convincing proof of her identity as the wife of Roger Bigod was only recently discovered by Raymond W. Phair, who announced his discovery in the soc.genealogy.medieval newsgroup on 3 July 2002, and then published it in The American Genealogist [Phair (2002)], citing a list of prisoners after the Battle of Bouvines in 1214, in which Ralph Bigod was called a brother of the earl of Salisbury. The parentage of Ida remains unknown, but see Reed (2002) for the possibility that she might have been a daughter of Roger de Toeni and Ida of Hainault.

William "Longespee", b. ca. 1170 [See Reed (2002)], d. 1226 [Rog. Wendover iv, 116-7], earl of Salisbury. [Rog. Hov. iv, 13]; m. Ela, heiress of Salisbury. [See CP 11, 379; DNB 12, 115-118]

[1]


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Collaboration

On 25 Mar 2019 at 20:28 GMT Isaac Taylor wrote:

Lastly, for now, can I ask we not type details like "she married Roger Bigod, 2nd Earl of Norfolk" into the biography section -- as unstructured data -- while we are simultaneously linking her actual profile (i.e as data, not mere typing of words) to her husband's profile, in which we currently assert his title is "4th Earl of Norfolk" (not 2nd) and debating whether he is the 4th or 2nd Earl there.

I think repeating stuff in the notes section just invites confusion over time when inevitably changes are made in once place and not in all... and changes to the actual structured database of names (and titles) are contradicted by biography blurbs. This creates (not solves) confusions like generational mismatches. Especially if dates are uncertain, title numbers need consistency-- as anchors.

On 25 Mar 2019 at 20:19 GMT Isaac Taylor wrote:

Hello everyone.

In this one nuclear family, we are inconsistently using Toeni, de Tosny, and de Tony. (And Tosney in the bio notes too!)

With what I consider the ONLY non-uncertain spelling, de Tosny... the actual, definitive name of the town this family is de-from, currently marked as 'uncertain.' Is that intentional, or just needs clean-up?

Also, Margaret Beaumont-529 has married name de Tosny, but her husband (who gives her the name!) doesn't. Even the AKA Toeni on her page, doesn't match the de Tony of her husband.

Seems like we need to just pick one, make it the master for hundreds of people over n generations of this family; and give them ALL the same alternates, in every profile?

Thoughts?

We're similarly inconsistent with "le" Bigod vs mere Bigod, between siblings and parents

On 25 Mar 2019 at 19:28 GMT Isaac Taylor wrote:

Can we revisit the LNAB question asked by Kirk Hess-2099 two years ago?

Her family name is de Tosny. They're from Tosny. That town is spelled T-o-s-n-y... so, it seems like we ought to model the phonetic alternate spellings as variations, rather than cherrypicking the Toeni spelling (which transcribes the way Tosny sounds, the s being silent) and asserting that's the family LNAB.

Otherwise, to give an example of why this this editorial policy would be absurb if applied more broadly, would we spell France F-R-A-N-C, because the e is silent; or spell Gloucester G-L-O-S-T-E-R, because somebody once did?

To make a counter-argument, we could debate precisely when NN de Berkeley is actually LNAB Barclay, and why. Because some variations do stick, and fork, for real.

Is de Tosny like that?

On 9 Jan 2019 at 21:07 GMT C (Gervais) Anonymous wrote:

Another similar profile (with discussion) is Toeni-6

On 12 Aug 2018 at 12:35 GMT C (Gervais) Anonymous wrote:

From The Cartulary of Bradenstoke Priory. Edited by Vera C. M. London. (Wiltshire Record Society, vol. xxxv.) - showing the discussion of parentage (mother) of William Longespee - "For a long period it was supposed that she (the mother) was Rosamund Clifford, but in recent years it has been generally accepted that her identity is unknown (though there is one contrary opinion that she is Alice Poerhoel? Pomerai?). Though in 2 charters William Longespee refers to his mother as 'Ida Comitissa', mater mea."

http://www.wiltshirerecordsociety.org.uk/pdfs/wrs_v35.pdf

On 12 Aug 2018 at 10:40 GMT C (Gervais) Anonymous wrote:

Where is the source for her first name being Ida? On Medlands it shows Adelais/Adelise/Adilidis, not "Ida":

"The Annals of Bermondsey which record the death in 1107 of “Rogerus Bigod, principalis fundator monasterii Beatæ Mariæ Thetfordiæ”. [m firstly ADELAIS, daughter of ---. The Liber Vitæ of Durham lists (in order) "Rodgerus Bigodus, Atheles uxor eius, Willelmus filius eorum". “Willielmus Bigot, dapifer regis Anglorum” donated property to Thetford Priory, for the souls of “patris mei Rogerii Bigoti et matris meæ Adelidis” and for the salvation of “fratris mei Hugonis et sororum mearum”, by undated charter dated to the reign of King Henry I." The Complete Peerage states that the wording of this charter shows that Adelais de Tosny was deceased at the time."

On 12 Aug 2018 at 09:45 GMT C (Gervais) Anonymous wrote:

On 12 Aug 2018 at 09:44 GMT C (Gervais) Anonymous wrote:

It's interesting that Ida's LN is Toeni, and she is the (supposed) mother of William Longespee- though, it was earlier believed that the well-known mistress (Rosamund Clifford-58) of King Henry Plantagenet-1627 (who fathered William Longespee) had a mother named Margaret Toeni Toeni-27 (and Margaret's father was named "Radulph (Ralph) de Tony formerly Toeni" (Toeni-4) and Margaret Toeni.

In the Medlands source, the entry for "Ida"'s mother reads: "MARGUERITE de Beaumont ([1125]-after 1185). Robert of Torigny refers to the wife of "Radulfus de Toene" as "filia Roberti comitis Leccestriæ" but does not name her[1743]. The 1163/ 64 Pipe Roll records "Margareta uxor Rad de Toeni" making payment "de Suppl de Welcumesto" in Essex/ Hertfordshire

(cont....)

On 8 May 2017 at 12:36 GMT Kirk Hess wrote:

Why is her LNAB Toeni when her name is sourced as Tosny (aka house name)?

On 5 Mar 2013 at 09:37 GMT Wendy (Smith) Hampton wrote:

Although Wiki gives this possibility -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida_de_Tosny

more comments



Ida is 25 degrees from Jim Angelo, 22 degrees from Willis Carrier and 11 degrees from Henry VIII of England on our single family tree. Login to find your connection.

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Categories: House of Tosny | Royal Mistresses