Gronwy ap Tudur (abt. 930)

Born about 0930 in Wales

Ancestors

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Biography

Name and Parentage

Gronwy ap Tudor Trefor was born say 930.^[1]

Goronwy ap Tuydor was the eldest son of Tudor Trevor and Anghard verch Hywel. ^[2]

Marriage

Gronwy married Tangwystl ferch Dfnwal. ^[1]

Goronwy, Lord of Fierlys, married Tangwystl, daughter of Dyvnwal ab Alan ab Alsar ab Tudwal Gloff ab Rhodri Mawr. ^[3]

Gronwy, who died in his father's lifetime, married Tangwystl, daughter of Dyfnwal ap Alan ap Alser ap Tudwal Gloff ap Rhodri Mawr, by whom he had an only daughter and heiress, Rhiengar who succeeded to her grandfather's lands in Hereford, Gloucester, Erging and Ewias. She married Cyhelin ap Ivor ap Seferus, Lord of Buillt, Radnor, Ceri, Maelienydd, Elfael and Cydewain. By Cyhelin, she was the mother of Elystan Glodrydd, Prince of Fferllys. He was born in 927 and was named after King Athelstan who was his godfather. He was living in 1010 but slain in a civil broil in Montgomeryshire.^[4]

Tangwystl was the daughter of Dyfnwal ap Alser ap Tudwal Gloff; ^[5]since her father died in the lifetime of Tudor Trevor, she would inherit nothing from either man under Welsh law. And Tudor Trevor did not hold any land south of Oswestry anyway. The claim that this granddaughter of Tudor Trevor inherited his lands around Hereford, Gloucester and Ewias was apparently concocted to explain why no such holdings are found among his descendants. But the mother of Tudor Trevor wasn't descended from the Caradog Freich Fras who did hold land in those areas; any land she may have inherited would have been in far north Wales. Elystan Glodrydd was born near 985/990 long after the death of King Athelstan, and likely died nearer 1050/1060. ^[4]

Gronwy ap GTudur Trevor who died before his father married Morvyth verch Llewelyn Aur Dorchog, Ld of Yal. ^[6]

Goronwy married Tangwystl, daughter of Dyfnwal ab Alan ab Alsar ab Tudwal Gloff, Prince of dyfed, fourth son of Rhoderig the Great, King of Wales. ^[2]

Death

Goronwy died in the lifetime of his father, leaving issue an only daughter and heiress. ^[2]

Issue

Authorities agree that when Goronwy died, he "left issue an only daughter and heiress." This daughter is identified as Rhiengar by Lloyd ^[2] and Vaughn ^[3] and as Gwen by Boyer ^[1].

Authorities are in agreement, however, that the daughter, whether Rheingar or Gwen, married Cuhelyn ab Ivor ab Severus ab Cadifor ab Gwenwynwyn ab Idnerth ab Iorwerth Hir Flawdd ab Tegonwy ab Teon, Lord of Buallt, Maes Hyfaidd or Radnor, Ceri, Maelienydd, Elfael and Cydewen. ^[2] or Cuhelyn ab Ifor ap Seferws ap Cadwr ap Cadwr Wenwyn ab Idneerth ab Iorwerth Hirflawdd ap Tegonwy ap Teon ap Gwineu Deufreuddwyd ap Brwyr Lew ap Brwdeg ap Rhun Rhudd Baladr ap Llary ap Casnar Wledig. ^[1] or Cuhelyn ab Ivor ab Severfus, lord of Bualtt ^[3]

Rheingar/Gwen and her husband Cuhelyn in turn had a son Elystan Glodrhydd, Prince of Fferlis ^[3].

Research Notes

Ancestors and Descendants

Table

GRONWY ap TUDOR:^[4]

820 Rhodri Mawr ______l_______ l l 850 Cadell Tudwal Gloff 865 l l 880 Hywel Dda Alser 895 l l 900 Tudor Trevor====Angharad 915 Dyfnwal 925 l l 940 Gronwy^[7]========Tangwystl 955 l 970 Gwenllian===Cuhelyn ap Ifor l 960 985 Elystan Glodrydd

Wolcott's Line of Descent from Tudor Trefor to Ranulph Peverell

Darrell Wolcott in an article on the Welsh origins of the Peverell family ^[8] prepared a line of descent from Tudor Trefor to Ranulph Peverell. Wolcott's purpose was to fit extant material into a coherent chronology. The extant material itself however, was to a large extent undocumented and cannot be relied on.

The line of descent is presented below, with links to the profiles involved, and documentation where available from other sources. WikiTree links between generations have been de-linked where they are not supported by other references.

1. Tudor Trevor (900-948) ^[1] Tudor Trefor married Angharad ferch Hywel Dda, and had three sons, Gronwy, Lludica, and Dingad.
2. Gronwy ap Tudor Trevor, was born about 920 ^[8] or 930 ^[1]. Gronwy married Tangwystl ferch Dyfnwal. Wolcott, following Bartrum, lists only one child, a daughter, Gwen. There is no record of Gronwy having a son Y Gwreng.
3. Y Gwreng ap Gronwy (970- ) Y Gwreng is not named by Bartrum or Boyer ^[1] and should therefore be considered legendary. Wolcott suggests that Gronwy ap Tudor Trevor fathered a base son by an unidentified Saxon lady and that whatever birth name that child was given, he was simply called "Y Gwreng" (the commoner) by the noblemen of Wales who considered his mother a "commoner". ^[8]
4. Pefr or Gronwy Pefr. (995- ) This person is also not shown in Boyer and should be considered legendary. Wolcott states that the son of that child was perhaps called "Pefr" not because he was actually "radiant", but as a means of rehabilitating his reputation. Wolcott notes that Gronwy Pefr was a character in the Mabinogion tale "Math vab Mathonwy", and while not cast in a hero role, at least he was considered a noble Welshman and not a commoner. ^[8]
5. Ranulph Pefr --> Peverell. Wolcott suggests that the son of this Gronwy was probably referred to as Ranulph Pefr until he was approached by the young Duke of Normandy, William the bastard, in 1051 with the request that he marry Maud, daughter of Ingelric the Saxon, who was pregnant with William's child -- another legend. ^[8] Wolcott apparently has combined Ranulf Wrenroc and Ranulf Peverell in the person of Ranulph Pefr.

Sources

1. ↑ ^{1.0 1.1 1.2 1.3 1.4 1.5 1.6} Carl Boyer III. Medieval Welsh Ancestors of Certain Americans. Generally follows Bartrum. By the author: Santa Clarita, California, 2004. Gronwy ap Tudor Trefor is #2 on page 356.
2. ↑ ^{2.0 2.1 2.2 2.3 2.4} Jacob Youde William Lloyd. The history of the princes, the lords marcher, and the ancient nobility of Powys Fadog and the Ancient Lords of Arwystli, Cedewen, and Meirionydd. The Noble Tribe of the Marches of Powys and Fourteenth Noble Tribe of Gwynedd. London: T. Richards,1881. Volume I Page 312 Goronwy ab Tudor appears on page 308-309. Accessed 6/5/2019 jhd
3. ↑ ^{3.0 3.1 3.2 3.3} H. F. J. Vaughn. Oswestry, Ancient and Modern, and Its Local Families, pp. 193-224, in Archaeologia Cambrensis. The Journal of the Cambrian Archaeological Association. Vol I, 5th Series, Table, p. 210. London: Pickering and Co, 1884 https://books.google.com/books?id=PtU4AQAAMAAJ&lpg=PA211&ots=_0j1QTangt&dq=madoc%20lloyd%20iorwerth&pg=PA212#v=onepage&q=madoc%20lloyd%20&f=false
4. ↑ ^{4.0 4.1 4.2} Darrell Wolcott, The Clan of Tudor Trevor. http://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id55.html Accessed August 26, 2015
5. ↑ See the paper on this site entitled "Llowarch ap Bran - Lord of Menai" for the correct pedigree of Tangwystl ferch Dyfnwal.
6. ↑ Sir Samuel Rush Meyrich, Heraldic Visitations of Wales and Parts of the Marches Between the Years 1586 and 1613 by Lewys Dwnn, Deputy Herald at Arms. Llandovery, 1846. Volume 1, p. 297. https://books.google.com/books?id=3t4_AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA297&lpg=PA297&dq=Cyveiliog+%22Rhiw+Saeson%22&source=bl&ots=xnBrQXqleu&sig=2xBX1LBwLwJ5MBdIeZzU_FagKF0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCsQ6AEwA2oVChMIiPzy0InTxwIVxGw-Ch36BQtc#v=onepage&q=Cyveiliog%20%22Rhiw%20Saeson%22&f=false.
7. ↑ For the possibility this Gronwy had a base son by a Saxon lady, see the paper entitled "The Mysterious Peverel Family" elsewhere on this site.
8. ↑ ^{8.0 8.1 8.2 8.3 8.4} Darrell Wolcott. Ancient Wales Studies. Welsh Origins of the Peveral Family Wolcott notes: Much of the genealogical data contained herein is of late, unproven origin and should not be relied upon. The purpose of this paper is primarily to examine what others claim to be true about the family, and create a timeline which will show the chronological errors contained in those accounts, and suggest a pedigree which eliminates earlier anachronisms. Accessed December 20, 2017. jhd

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Acknowledgments

Thank you to Al Adams for creating Trevor-50 on 19 Oct 13.