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Jan Cornelisse (Van Cleave) van Cleef (1627 - 1699)

Jan Cornelisse van Cleef formerly Van Cleave aka VanCleef, van Cleve, Van Cleaf
Born in Cleve (Borgholzhausen, Gütersloh, Nordrhein-Westfalen, Deutschland)map [uncertain]
[sibling(s) unknown]
Husband of — married 10 Mar 1661 in Gravesend, Kings, New Yorkmap
Descendants descendants
Died at about age 71 in New Utrecht, Kings County, Long Island, New York colonymap
Profile last modified | Created 23 Jun 2013
This page has been accessed 9,739 times.
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Jan (Van Cleave) van Cleef was a New Netherland settler.
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Contents

Biography

Jan Van Cleef was born in 17th century Holland. He immigrated to New York circa 1653, where he met and later married Angelica Lawrence [Engeltje Louwerens] in 1661. The couple settled in New Utrecht, Long Island, NY. Jan served as a delegate from Bushwick Colony to the Representative Convention in New Amsterdam, 1664, to send delegates to Holland to represent the States General and the West Indies Company the distressed state of the country. Jan's name appears in a list of members of the Dutch Church of New Utrecht, 1677-1685. It is there that he owned a plantation of 24 morgens and other plots of land, as well as 21/2 lots at Yellow Hook (now Bay Ridge), Long Island, NY, which he appears to have disposed of in 1691.

* According to a few books published in the 19th & 20th centuries, Jan was born in 1628; however, documents recently uncovered by some of the descendants of Jan's great great grandson Benjamin Van Cleave suggest that Jan was in-fact born in the summer of 1627.

Origin: Duchy of Cleve. Resided New Utrecht and Gravesend NY. emigrated 1653. married before 1661.

Origins

Jan is believed to have come from Kleve, now located in North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany. [1]
Cleve, Clivia c. 1570

Birth

Aug 1627 Cleve, Gutersloh, Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany [2]

Arrival

Arrived in 1653 and settled in New Utrecht, Long Island by 1659. [3]

Marriage

Husband of Engeltje L. Pieterse — married August 18, 1641 in New York [4]
Husband of Engeltje L. DeNorman — married March 10, 1661 in Gravesend, Kings, New York.

Land

A reference to Jan in the following: To 30 April 1698 in New Utrecht, Aert Van Pelt Van_Pelt-425 was leasing farm land which had been deeded to Hendrick Mattysen Smack by Nicholas De Meyer, a merchant of New York. De Meyer has purchased this land from John Van Clyff Van_Cleave-84 at 19 Jan 1670. At his date de Meyer was deceased who "died seized of land in New Utrecht." This follows a statement: Willielmus de Meyer of Kingston, John Williamson Neringh of New Castle Pennsylvania, merchant, Philip Skyler aka Schuyler, merchant of New York, Thomas Lyndall of New York, merchant, and Agnietie DeMeyer, widow and exe of Henry DeMeyer, Dec'd. 17 July 1694. [5]

Residence

New Jersey; New York[6]
New Netherlands 1653
New Utrecht 1686

Death

1698/1701 New York, Kings, New York
1699 in Kings, New York

Church Records

Children's baptisms
  1. 1681. Oct 23. Catharine; parents: Jan van Kleef, Engeltje van Kleef. Wit.: Pieter Strijkker, Hendrikje Stephensz. [7]
  2. 1683. Nov 25. Joseph & Benjamin; parents: Jan Van Kleef, Engeltje Van Kleef; op Utrecht; witnesses: Quirin Jansz van Meteren, Neeltje van Kleef; & Nicolaas Rutgers, Helena Cordeljau. [7]
  3. 1688. May 13. Ceijtie; parents: Jan van Cleeft, Engeltie Lourents. Wit.: Willem Jansen, Adriaentie Jansen. [7]

Research Notes

Unknown Children

Misc.

Jan Cornelissen van Cleef emigrated to America in 1653.

In 1656, Jan Cornelissen van Cleef was a farmer at Gravesent, Long Island, New York, according to the census.

Birth Location Amsterdam, Netherlands Rhenish Duchy,Cleve,,Germany

Death Location New Amsterdam, New York, United States New York,Kings,New York,USA Place of Burial: New Utrecht Cemetery, Bensonhurst, Kings County, New York, USA

Jan or John Van Cleef was a Dutch man born in Amsterdam. He came to the new world in 1653, at New Netherlands (New York). Most likely in the city of New Amsterdam (New York). Eventually in 1664 the English conquered New Netherlands and renamed New Netherlands and New Amsterdam New York. Jan took the oath to the English in 1687. He landed in Long Island in 1653, where he owned 14 morgens in Gravesend in 1657. He was a farmer and moved to New Utrecht later. In 1686 he received a grant of land from Governor Donegan.

Errett Van Cleave ("History of the Van Cleave Family, The McMullen Family, The Taylor Family," 1946, pg. 18-19) quotes from a book, "The Gosney Family" published by Mrs. Georgia Gosney Wisda, then of Norwalk, Ohio.

"Jan (John) Van Cleef, the first of the name in the New World, was born in 1628 in Amsterdam, Holland and came to New Netherlands in 1653, landed on Long Island where he owned 14 moorgens in Gravesend in 1657, was a farmer and leater moved to New Utrecht. In 1686 he received a grant of land from Governor Donegan. He took the oath of allegiance to the English Government in 1687. A census of 1688 gives Jan as a resident of New Utrecht for 34 years with a wife and four children. In Feb. of 1664 Jan stated that he was 36 years old, when he made a written declaration of events that happened in New Utrecht.

"He was a representative from the Bushwick Colony to the convention in New Amsterdam April 10, 1664, to send delegates to Holland to represent the States General and the West Indies Company, the distressed state of the country. Jan's name appears in a list of members of the Dutch Church of New Utrecht in1677-1685. He died about 1699 in New York. A few of his descendants reside in New York but most of them removed to New Jersey.

"Prior to March 10, 1661, Jan married Engeltje Loiwerens, who was born in1646 and about 15 years of age when she married. She was the daughter of Laurens Pietersen (Noorman) from Tonsburg in Norway, who was in New Amsterdam as early as 1639. On June 16, 1639 he was declared sole heir to the real and personal property of Roeloff Roeloffsen. In the Chamber of Wills where this declaration is contained he is called 'Laurens Pietersen Van Tonsback' and in the Church record of his marriage with Anetie Pieters from Brutsteen, Germany it is stated that he is from Tonsburg. He married Anetie Pieters August 18, 1641 in New Amsterdam. Lauren's daughter, Sytie was baptized July 15, 1646.

"There is reason to believe that Jan Van Cleef was a son of one of the claimants for the Ducal throne of Cleaves when it was vacated by the death of Duke John William in 1609, without heirs, although he had been married twice. There were eight heirs who claimed the throne but it was given in 1614 by the Treaty of Zanten to the heirs of his wife instead. It is probable that the father of Jan fled across the border into Holland as a political refugee, taking up his residence in Amsterdam.

"Some historians give the Van Cleef family as living in New York in1630. There was a Dierch Van der Clyff and a Sytie Van Cleef in records about the same time as Jan, and it is possible that they were brothers and sister, but it has not yet been proven."

Emigrated to New Netherlands in 1653. He died after 1698.

Jan emigrated in 1653. He was a farmer in Gravesend, Long Island in 1656 and possibly living in New Utrecht in 1659.

Jan Van Cleef married Engeltje Louwerens before March 10, 1661. She was about fifteen years old at the time. Her father was Laurens Pietersen from Tonsburg in Norway, who was in New Amsterdam by 1639. Engeltje’s mother was Anetie Pieters from Brutsteen, Germany. Laurens and Anetie were married in 1641 in New Amsterdam. Their daughter Engletje was baptised July 15, 1646.

In 1664, Jan Van Cleef made a written declaration of events in New Utrecht, and stated he was 36 years old. He was a representative to The Convention in New Amsterdam in April 1664, which sent delegates to Holland to describe the distressed state of the country to the government and the West Indies Company.

In 1686 Jan received a grant of land in from Governor Donegan, and took the oath of allegiance to the English Government in 1687. The 1688 Census listed Jan with wife and four children and stated that Jan had been a resident of New Utrecht for 34 years. Between 1677-1685, Jan appeared on the membership rolls of the Dutch Church of New Utrecht. He died in 1699 in New York. [8]


Jan (John) Van Cleef was born in Amsterdam, Holland in 1628, and came to New Netherland, landing on Long Island in 1653. Jan was a farmer,and owned land in Gravesend in 1657, later moving to New Utrecht. It is possible that his father was a political refugee from Cleves, who fled across the border into Holland. There are other Van Cleef families in early New York (as early as 1630) who may be related. Jan Van Cleef married Engeltje Louwerens before March 10, 1661. She was about fifteen years old at the time. Her father was Laurens Pietersen from Tonsburg in Norway, who was in New Amsterdam by 1639. Engeltje’s mother was Anetie Pieters from Brutsteen, Germany. Laurens and Anetie were married in 1641 in New Amsterdam. Their daughter Engletje was baptised July 15, 1646. In 1664, Jan Van Cleef made a written declaration of events in New Utrecht, and stated he was 36 years old. He was a representative to The Convention in New Amsterdam in April 1664, which sent delegates to Holland to describe the distressed state of the country to the government and the West Indies Company. In 1686 Jan received a grant of land in from Governor Donegan, and took the oath of allegiance to the English Government in 1687. The 1688 Census listed Jan with wife and four children and stated that Jan had been a resident of New Utrecht for 34 years. Between 1677-1685, Jan appeared on the membership rolls of the Dutch Church of New Utrecht. He died in 1699 in New York. Some of his descendents remained in New York, but most moved to New Jersey.

Nine children of Jan Van Cleef and Engeltje Lauwerens are identified: 1. Neeltje Van Cleef (1663-1747) m. John Van Mater (1650-1720) 2. Cornelius Van Cleef m. Femmetje Van De Venter 3. Rebecca Van Cleef, m. Andrew Emans, son of Andrew 4. Angelica Van Cleef m. John Emans, son of John and Sara 5. Isabrant Van Cleef, m. Jannetke Aertse Vanderbilt ** 6. Catherine Van Cleef 7. Joseph Van Cleef, m. Catherine Rapalje 8. Benjamin Van Cleef m. Hendricke Sutphen 9. Ceytie (Cynthia) Van Cleef

Isabrant Van Cleef was born in 1677 in New York. In the 1706 Staten Island Census, he was 28 years old. He was a grand juror in New Utrecht in 1699, and owned land there in 1700. His estate inventory was filed in Freehold, New Jersey in January 1729. Isabrant married Jannetje Aertse Vanderbilt about 1699 at Staten Island. She was the daughter of Aris Aertse (Arthur) Vanderbilt and Hillitje Remsen. Jannetje was baptised in New Utrecht September 17, 1682.

Ten children of Isabrant and Jannetke are identified: 1. John Van Cleef (of Maidenhead) (1700-1772) m. Cornelia Van Meter and had Chrineyance Van Cleave, whose tombstone is shown. 2. Cornelius Van Cleef 3. Margaret Van Cleef 4. Mary Van Cleef 5. Helena Van Cleef m. John Brower (Brown) 6. Aaron Van Cleef , m. Rachel Schenck *** 7. Anne Van Cleef, m. John Willson 8. Martha Van Cleef 9. Benjamin Van Cleef 10. Jane Van Cleef

Aaron Van Cleef was the first to spell his name Cleave. Aaron was born on Staten Island about 1710. He moved to New Jersey with his parents,and he married Rachel Schenck about 1734. Rachel was born about 1709 to Jan Roelofse Schenck (1670-1753) and Sarah Konwenhoven (1674-1761). Aaron was, for awhile, a ship’s captain in the coastal trade. Wisda states there are clippings in the Boston Weekly News and the New York Weekly Post-Boy.

In New Jersey, the Van Cleefs were neighbors to the family of John Hunt and Margaret Moore, whose son Jonathan was my ancestor. Jonathan and his family, along with several siblings and their families moved to Rowan County, NC about 1750 ~~ the same time as Aaron and Rachel Schenck Van Cleave. It is certainly possible that they moved together, as many allied families seem to disappear from NJ records and appear in old Rowan nearly simultaneously. Aaron Van Cleave died in 1780, and according to Wisda, he and Rachel are “buried at the Forks of the Yadkin in North Carolina.”

Eight children of Aaron and Rachel Schenck Van Cleve are identified: 1. Samuel Van Cleave, b. about 1735, moved to VA 2. Cary Van Cleave, moved to Ohio in later years 3. John Van Cleave b. 1739 m1 Mary Shepherd; m2 Rachel Ryker 4. Benjamin Van Cleave b. 1741, m. Ruth Monson in NC 5. William Van Cleave, b. 1743, m. Abigail Frost 6. Aaron Van Cleave, Jr. b. 1745, m. Rachel Brent 7. Ralph (Rulief) Van Cleave, b. 1747, m. Lydia Combs 8. Jane Van Cleave, b. 1749, m. Squire Boone ****

From Rowan County Tax Lists 1757-1800 by Jo White Linn copyright 1995: p. 20: Benjamin Van Clave [sic] is one of the private men serving on the scout under Capt. Jonathan Hunt in May 1759; and “He [Benjamin Drake], John Drake, Samuel Drake, George Smith, Capt. Jonathan Hunt, Benjamin Merril, Zebulon Stout, John South, Benjamin and Josiah Roundsopher, Josiah Barton, John McGuire, David Harry, and ‘one Vanclift’ were charged on October 13, 1755 at a meeting of the Executive Council in Newbern with Assault and Riot in preventing the agents of Henry McCulloh from resurveying patents of land in Tract #9. See the Colonial Records of North Carolina Second Series, Vol. IX:13” In 1768,William Vancleave [ sic] is on the Rowan County tax list of Morgan Bryan-2 (page 71); while Benjamin Van Cleve, Aron Van Clave & Rulufe [sic] are on the tax list of Jonathan Hunt (page 80).

Jan Cornelisse Van Cleef Jan Van Cleef/Cleve was born in 1627-28, presumably in Amsterdam, Holland. This presumption is due to his forename spelling of Jan instead of the more common Germanic spelling of Johan. Since Jan named one of his sons for himself with the Germanic spelling of Johannes (son of John) instead of using the spelling of Jan, it suggests that one or both of his parents were probably from one of the German states. Germany was not the Germany of today, which was created in 1919. It was comprised of a large number of independent counties, marks, principalities, duchies and kingdoms.

Jan died circa 1699, the last record of him being the New Utrecht Census of (presumably) 1698. He was a son of Cornelius Van Cleef/Cleve, and probably a second or younger son.

Jan arrived in New Amsterdam, New Netherlands in 1653. Because he had money to pay for his voyage, with a fair amount of cash money for business ventures after his arrival, and included in his possessions were a gun and a sheathed rapier sword, possessions not often found amongst the common farmer and tradesman, it is thought that Jan might have had a prosperous father.

Jan was only married once (circa January/February 1661, at New Utrecht, Long Island, New Netherland), to Engelje Laurens Pietersen (baptized July 15, 1646, at the New Amsterdam Dutch Church, died post-1711, the daughter of Laurens/Louwerens Pieterse de Norman and Annetje/Anetie Peiters). Jan and Engelje are known to have had the following fifteen children: Neeltje (named for his mother?), Cornelius (was named for his father), Laurens (was named for his wife's father), Jacobus (named for his father's father?), Rebecca (named for his father's mother?), Anna (was named for his wife's mother), Angelica (was named for his wife), Isabrandt (named for his wife's mother's father?), Rem (named for his mother's father?), Johannes (was named for himself), Catherine (named for his mother's mother?), Joseph and Benjamin (were twins named for the Biblical twins), Maritje (named for his wife's mother's mother?), and Ceytie (was named for his wife's sister). We have dates of birth or baptism for some, approximations of birth from census records for a few, and nothing substantial for others.

Amongst the many New Utrecht court cases involving Jan's business dealings is a case of his involvement in a bar brawl. Evidently Jan had a fair amount of free time during the day allowing him to frequent the local public house. On September 21, 1661 Jan assisted the tavern keeper during a mêlée with militia Sergeant Jans Thomaszen and his son in evicting them from the premises. Thomaszen later explained in court that while enjoying half a barrel of beer with his eighteen year-old son on the occasion of the departure of Sir Johannes Verveelen, burgher and brewer of Amsterdam in New Netherlands, he (Thomaszen), being quite drunk, had engaged in a heated argument with one Claertie de Mof (believed to be the tavern keeper). A brawl ensued with several blows being struck between the two men. During the ensuing melee Thomaszen's shirt was torn by Claertie de Mof. Jan Van Cleef then entered the fray by grabbing Thomaszen by the hair in an attempt to pull him off de Mof. Thereupon Thomaszen drew his knife slicing at Van Cleef, making four cuts to Van Cleef's jerkin, and in the process inflicting Van Cleef with a flesh wound. Jan Van Cleef then grabbed Thomaszen by his arms knocking the knife from his hand. At this point Thomaszen's son, Thomas Janssen, not liking to see Van Cleef attack his father joined in, pulling Van Cleef by the shoulders off Thomaszen. Van Cleef then turned on the young Thomas grabbing him by the hair, and with the aid of another tavern patron, Hendrick Matthijssen, who grabbed Thomas by his feet, threw the young man down on the floor. The son then grabbed Van Cleef by the hair in order to be let go of by the two men. Claertie de Mof, Jan Van Cleef and Hendrick Matthijssen were able to evict the drunken Thomaszen and his son from the premises. Thomaszen was required to pay damages to Van Cleef and do penance.

After the British took control of New Netherland, renaming it New York, Jan's name was included with others of New Utrecht being granted the title of "Patroon" in 1686.

Jan's house, known as the Van Cleef-Van Pelt Manor, stood at what was originally the old New Utrecht Village square, located on the east side of 18th avenue, between 81st street and (facing) 82nd street, in the New Utrecht neighbor-hood, of the Bensonhurst District, in Brooklyn, New York. A court record states that after he sold the house he was allowed to continue to live in it the remainder of his life. Afterwards it was sold, enlarged, and occupied by the Van Pelt family until 1910 when sold to the City of New York. It was demolished in November 1952.

A headstone has not as yet been identified for him, but he is most surely buried in this cemetery, located just down the street two blocks from his house, and associated with his church, which was established in 1677.

Sources

  1. Evjen: Page 405
  2. Source: #S1743240850: Page: Place: New York, New York; Year: 1653; Page Number: 405. Note: Ancestry Record pili354 #2112885 Text: Birth date: abt 1628Birth place: Arrival date: 1653Arrival place: New York, New York APID: 7486::2112885
  3. Early Dutch Settlers of Monmouth County, New Jersey, by George C. Beekman.
  4. Source: #S662021373: Page: Source number: 265.000; Source type: Electronic Database; Number of Pages: 1; Submitter Code: TLB. Note: Ancestry Record worldmarr_ga #1252426 Text: Birth date: 1627Birth place: Marriage date: 1661Marriage place: APID: 7836::1252426
  5. Genealogical Gleanings from Book No. 2 of Conveyances, Brooklyn, Kings Co., N.Y. https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/48331/LongIslandSrcRec-001893-38/295637?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.com%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dFLHG-LongIslandSrcRec%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_r_db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26gsfn%3d%2b%26gsfn_x%3d0%26gsln%3dvan%2bwick*%26gsln_x%3d0%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3dfq7&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&rc=1112,761,1200,785;905,829,989,855;151,1602,218,1627
  6. Source: #S-2143393647: Note: http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=genealogy-glh38301454&h=583&ti=0&indiv=try&gss=pt Text: Residence date: Residence place: New Jersey; New York, USA APID: 27177::583
  7. 7.0 7.1 7.2 David William Voorhees, editor, Records of The Reformed Protestant Dutch Church of Flatbush, Kings County, New York, Vol.1, 1677-1720 (New York: Holland Society of New York, 1998). via Chris Chester, "The Brouwer Genealogy Database".
  8. A Dictionary of Biography, Past and Present. Containing the chief events in the lives of eminent persons of all ages and nations. Edited by Benjamin Vincent. London: Ward, Lock, & Co., 1877. (DcBiPP) McGraw-Hill Dictionary of Art. Five volumes. Edited by Bernard S. Myers. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1969. (McGDA) http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-c&gsfn=Jan&gsln=Van+Cleef&msbdy=1646&msddy=1716&gskw=%23+220725&uidh=mf2&pcat=33&h=5765011&recoff=4+6&db=bgmi&ml_rpos=13&hovR=1

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It may be possible to confirm family relationships with Jan by comparing test results with other carriers of his Y-chromosome or his mother's mitochondrial DNA. However, there are no known yDNA or mtDNA test-takers in his direct paternal or maternal line. It is likely that these autosomal DNA test-takers will share some percentage of DNA with Jan:

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Comments: 14

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The attached page from the Jan Van Cleef family in First Generation lists a daughter Angelica who married Jan Emans.

Please attached her to her parents on this profile Van_Cleef-143 https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Van_Cleef-143.

Note that it has been assumed on this profile that is was her mother Engeltje who re-married in 1700 to Jan Emans / Emmans.

From Bergen Early Settlers: Jan Emans (s. of John and Sara) of G*^, m. , Mar. 4, 1701, (sup.) Angelica Van Cleef ; m. 2 Nelthe ; d. Feb. 1724. Will da. Feb. —, 1723; pro, Feb. 13, 1734; rec. p. 449, Lib. 9, N. Y. surr. off. Issue:—John ; Ester ; Sarah, (sup.) m. Benjamin Stymets ; Neeltie ; Samy ; Thomas ; and Johanna. Signed his name John Emans.' https://ia802607.us.archive.org/32/items/registerinalphab00berg/registerinalphab00berg.pdf

posted by Beryl Meehan
Van Cleve-64 and Van Cleave-84 appear to represent the same person because: This is the oldest paternal ancestor in this chain in need of a merge into the NNS PPP. No tree conflicts. Thanks!
posted by Steven Mix
Van Cleaf-12 and Van Cleave-84 appear to represent the same person because: This is the oldest paternal ancetor in this chain in need of a merge into the NNS PPP. No tree conflicts. Add aka Van Cleaf. Thanks!
posted by Steven Mix
Van Cleef-13 and Van Cleave-84 appear to represent the same person because: This is the oldest paternal ancestor in this chain in need of a merge into the NNS PPP. No tree conflicts. Thanks!
posted by Steven Mix
Van Cleve-47 and Van Cleave-84 appear to represent the same person because: This is the oldest paternal ancestor in this chain in need of a merge into the NNS PPP. No tree conflicts. Add aka van Cleve. Thanks!
posted by Steven Mix
This profile was chosen as the main profile of Jan Van Cleave once NNS settled on Van Cleave as the LNAB for this family (at which point the "Do Not Merge" notice was removed). I'm unsure as to why Van_Cleef-9 is still project protected, though, as I would think all Van_Cleef & VanCleef family members would be clear to merge with the lowest number Van_Cleave dupes. Eyestone-2, I'd say go ahead and propose merges for the profiles that can be merged, and maybe this should be brought up within the NNS group? I am not active on G+ where most project discussions tend to take place, so I unfortunately miss a LOT of discussions concerning several different projects (NNS being one).
posted by Jayme (McClary) Hart
I am new to the New Netherland Settlers project and profiles so please forgive me as I am getting up to speed. I have seen some profiles with large "DO NOT MERGE" warnings (like Van_Cleef-9). Can someone explain what is going on with this profile, though? Forty-one children? A handful each with the names Cornelius, Benjamin and Rebecca? Why are they not getting merged? Thanks
posted by PM Eyestone
Jan appears to have been married twice, to women a generation apart. The earliest marriage date, August 18, 1641 in New York, United States, must belong to the earlier wife, whose name is lost to history. The children born 1640s-1650s must belong to her, and should probably be detached from the current mother. But we can look at that later.

The second, much younger wife, has the 1661 marriage. The name of the three wives should all be that same woman, born 1646. Those three wives can be merged, and her existing parents seem to be okay, so I will work on that.

Based on her father's name, I think she should be final as the Laurens patronymic among the three matches.

Pieterse is instead her father's patronymic, and DeNorman is bad form.

posted by Steven Mix
Without researching the topic, I would venture a guess that Cleve really was in the Rhenish Duchy at the time of Jan's birth, before the unification of Germany. Some genealogists prefer using the place-name as it was at the time of an event; I believe noting both would be most logical.
posted by Bob Nichol
Cleave-84 had as place of birth Rhenish Duchy, Cleve, Germany (the same place as Cleve, [Gutersloh ?], Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany).
posted by Philip van der Walt
Van Cleef-54 and Van Cleave-84 appear to represent the same person because: they're for the same person. see comments on Van Cleave-84 profile about the various spellings/stylings. Please merge. Thanks!
posted by Liz (Noland) Shifflett