Herbert II (Vermandois) de Vermandois

Heribert (Vermandois) de Vermandois (0880 - 0943)

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Heribert (Herbert II) "Count of Vermandois, Meaux and Soissons" de Vermandois formerly Vermandois
Born in Vermandois, Francemap
Ancestors ancestors
Husband of — married before [location unknown]
Descendants descendants
Died in St Quentin, Peronne, Somme, Francemap
Profile last modified | Created 12 Sep 2010 | Last significant change: 31 Dec 2018
15:23: Simone (Cummings) Cumming proposed a merge of Vermandois-13 and Vermandious-1 with a comment. [Thank Simone for this]
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Categories: House of Vermandois | Carolingian Dynasty | Charlemagne to William the Conqueror Descent | Notables.

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Contents

Biography

Name and Titles

  • Heribert II [1]
  • Count of Vermandois 907-943 [2][3]
  • Count of Meaux 907-943[2][3]
  • Count of Soissons 907–930[2][3]
  • He was Count of Meaux, Soissons, and Vermandois and lay-abbot of Saint-Crepin and Saint-Medard of Soissons, from about 900 or 907 to his death in 943. [4]

880 Birth and Parentage

While Baldwin indicates that both his date and place of birth are unknown, [1] both Cawley and Richardson estimate his year of birth as 880. [4] [5]

Baldwin gives his probable father as Heribert I, who died between 900 and 906, count of Vermandois, noting that "although not directly documented, this parentage is very probable. [1]Cawley also notes that there are no primary sources to verify his parents, Herbert I of Vermandois and Liedgardis. [3] Bradbury notes that "he was apparently well aware of his descent from Charlemagne." [6]

Richardson and others are comfortable in simply referring to Heribert II as son of Heribert I, Count of Vermandois. [4][7][2]

Baldwin states that his mother is unknown, [1]but that it is not Bertha, as reported in Wikipedia. [2] Baldwin refers to Berthe, daughter of Guerri (Wedricus), count of Morvois and his wife Eva, as a falsely attributed mother. [1]

900 Inheritance of father Heribert's domains

Upon the death of Heribert's father, which occurred between 900 and 906, Herbert inherited the domain of his father.

907 Lay Abbot, Saint Medard de Soissons

In 907 Heribert added to his domains the Abbey of St. Medard in Soissons. [2] Heribert took the position of Lay abbot entitling him to the income of those estates. [7] Settipani reports that he first appears as lay-abbot of Saint-Médard de Soissons on 6 November 907 in an act of Charles the Simple.[8]

914 Marriage

Estimating marriage date: Assuming his birth in 880, he would have been 21 in the year 901 and a marriage would most likely have occurred after 901.

Baldwin states that Heribert II married an unnamed daughter of Robert I, King of France, [1] Richardson adds that this unnamed daughter was Robert's by his wife Aelis.[4] Baldwin adds that the relationship between the families is confirmed by the fact that Hugues the Grand was termed an 'avunculus' (uncle, mother's brother) of Heribert's sons, who in turn are called nepotes (nephews) of Hugues [1] Heribert's relationship with an unnamed daughter is further confirmed by Flodoard naming Hugo an uncle of Heribert's sons. [9]

Cawley believes that Robert's daughter was named Adela, born before 898, and that Adela was the daughter of Robert's wife Adela, whom Cawley believes to be Robert's first wife, deceased by 207. [10] Elsewhere Cawley refers to Heribert's wife's mother as Lietgardis. [9] Adele as the name of the daughter of Robert who married Heribert also appears in Flodoard. [11]

Following Settipani, Cawley[9] believes Heribert was married before 21 May 907 based on a reading of a document of that date which names Robert as count and Adela as countess. Cawley believed that Robert's wife Adela was dead by that time and therefore the document referred to his daughter Adela, countess by virtue of her marriage to Heribert. [10] Baldwin prefers the interpretation that Adela was living and Robert's wife at the time of the 907 document, and that there was an earlier wife, Beatrix.

Cawley states that Adela's birth date is estimated from the birth of her first child in 915. [9] This dating would place the year of Adela's marriage as 914.

Dating the marriage to 914 would also be consistent with another fact. Flodoard records that Heribert's second son Hughes was aged 5 when Heribert had him made archbishop of Reims in 925, placing Hughes' birth at 920. Eudes was Heribert's oldest son; assume that in the natural course of things there was a daughter born in 918 and Eudes in 916 or 915, and one has an estimated marriage year of 914

This is also consistent with the signing of a charter in which the two families appear together. On 30 May 914 Heribert appears as a witness to a charter of Robert (of Neustria) and his son Hugues on 30 May 914 [12]

Baldwin, citing Flodoard, reports that Heribert's wife, still not named, was living in 931.[13]

Heribert's marriage with a daughter of king Robert I of France brought him the County of Meaux. [14]

923 Captures King Charles the Simple

In 923, using false promises of safe conduct, he captured king Charles the Simple who remained a captive for the rest of his life, dring in 929. [1][15] [14]

925 Appoints 5 year old son Archbishop of Reims

In 922, when Seulf became Archbishop of Rheims, in an effort to appease Herbert II, Seulf solemnly promised him he could nominate his successor. [2]

Then, on the death of Seulf in 925, with the help of King Rudolph, he acquired for his second son Hugh (then five years old) the archbishopric of Rheims. [16][17] This detail serves not only to illustrate Heribert's widely-known rapaciousness -- placing a five year old in such a position served no ecclesiastical purpose, but gave Heribert's family the income from the archbishopric -- but also serves to place Hughes' birth at 920 and Heribert's marriage no later than 919. Hughes was archbishop from 925-932 and again 940-946. [1]

Herbert took the additional step of sending emissaries to Rome to Pope John X to gain his approval, which that pope gave in 926. [18] On his election young Hugh was sent to Auxerre to study. [6]

926 Demands Laon for eldest son Eudes

In 926, on the death of Count Roger of Laon, Herbert demanded this countship for Eudes, his eldest son. He took the town in defiance of King Rudolph leading to a clash between the two in 927. [6]Using the threat of releasing King Charles III, who he held captive, Herbert managed to hold the city for four more years. [6]

931 Defeats at Laon and Rheims

After the death of Charles in 929, Rudolph again attacked Laon in 931 successfully defeating Herbert. [6]

The same year the king entered Rheims and defeated archbishop Hugh, the son of Herbert. [19] Artaud became the new archbishop of Reims. [19]

Herbert II then lost, in three years, Vitry, Laon, Château-Thierry, and Soissons.[20]

The intervention of his ally, Henry the Fowler, allowed him to restore his domains (except Rheims and Laon) in exchange for his submission to King Rudolph.[2]

Later Herbert allied with Hugh the Great and William Longsword, duke of Normandy against King Louis IV, who allocated the County of Laon to Roger II, the son of Roger I, in 941. [2]

Herbert and Hugh the Great took back Rheims and captured Artaud. [21]

Hugh, the son of Herbert, was restored as archbishop. [21]

Again the mediation of the German King Otto I in Visé, near Liège, in 942 allowed for the normalization of the situation.[2]

943 Death

Heribert died in 943, and his lands were distributed among his sons in 946.[1] The specific date was 23 February 943. [22][5]

While the place of his death is unknown, he was buried at Saint-Quentin[1] [4][5] in Aisne (the capital of the county of Vermandois). [7]

At his death, Heribert II was Count of Vermandois, Count of Meaux, and Count of Soissons, the first to exercise power over the territory that became the province of Champagne.[2] His vast estates and territories were divided among his sons. [23]

Issue

Generally Recognized Children

Heribert II and Adele five sons and two daughters, [4] Heribert's lands were distributed among his sons in 946. The children are not listed in any one place in the contemporary sources, but various statements in Flodoard's annals clearly document the five sons and two daughters listed below. [1]

Of the children, only Hugues has a well documented approximate birthdate. Depending on whether Hugues was one of the elder or younger children, this has led to varying conjectures for the birthdates for the other children [see, e.g. Werner (1967), table; Bur (1977), 507-513; Schwager (1994), 401-6].[1]

  1. Eudes or Odo, was apparently the eldest son of Heribert. His date and place of birth is unknown; based on an estimate of 914 as the year of his parents' marriage, estimate his birth year as 915. He was Count of Vienne and Amiens. [4]
  2. Adèle[4] or Adela de Vermandois [24]Since birth order and birth years of the children are unknown, estimate her as the second child, born two years after Eudes, therefore 917. In 934 Adèle married Arnulf I, count of Flanders. [7] She died in 960. [1]
  3. Vermandois-179|Hughes]] was born in 920 because it was noted that he was five years old when he was made Archbishop of Reims in 925. [1][25] Archbishop of Reims[4] He died about 962.
  4. Ligard or Luitgar, Ledgarde, [4] or Luitgardis [26]. Birth year unknown, estimate 922 based on brother Hugh's birth 920. She first married, about 940, [7] William I, or Guillaume I, Duke of Normandy [4] also known as William Longsword [27] She secondly married Thibaut II "le tricheur", Count of Blois </ref name="fmg2228"/> and Chartres. [4] She was still living 16 August 979 and died after that. [1]
  5. Albert I, Count of Vermandois[4]. Birth place and year is unknown, estimate 924 based on brother Hugh's birth 920. Other sources estimate his birth year as early as 915. [7] He married Gerberge, daughter of Giselbert, duke of Lorriane. [1] and died 08 Sep 987.[27]
  6. Heribert, Count of Omois ad Troyes[4] Birth year unknown, estimate 926 based on brother Hugh's birth 920. Known as Herbert 'the Old'[2]Herbert III "le vieux" [24] Heribert "vetulus" ("the old"), [1]. In 951 married Eadgifu, daughter of Eadweard "the Elder", king of Wessex, and widow of Charles III of France. [1]
  7. Robert. Birth place and year is unknown, estimate 931 based on brother Hugh's birth 920. Count of Troyes and Meaux,[4] Between 942 and 950 he married Adélaïde (Werra), daughter of Giselbert, count of Chalon and Troyes. She died after 967. [1] Robert died after 19 June 966. [27]

Possible Additional Child

  • Guy (Wido), Comte de Soissons (d. after 986). Shown by Cawley but not by Richardson.[27] Guy I, Count of Soissons (d. 986).[2]

Falsely Attributed Children

Steward Baldwin identifies several falsely attributed children who are NOT children of Heribert II but sometimes appear in his genealogies:

  1. Adèle, who married Geoffroy Grisegonelle, is sometimes shown as a daughter but is in fact a granddaughter of Heribert. This Adèle is not the daghter of Heribert, who married Arnulf of Flanders. The Adèle who married Grisegonelle was Heribert's granddaughter, a daughter of his son Robert. Geoffroy Grisegonelle was count of Anjou, died in 987.[1]
  2. Ragenold/Renaud, count of Roucy, who died 10 May 967, is not a son of Heribert. He appears as such in the widely used Ancestral Roots. [28]
  3. Godehilde, a conjectured daughter, very improbable, was living in 1005. She married Yves I, living 1005, lord of Bellême. Baldwin observes that she was almost certainly in a later generation than the children of Heribert.[1]

Line of Descent to William the Conqueror

Douglas Richardson [4] provides one line of descent from Charlemagne to William the Conqueror and four lines of descent from Charlemagne to William's wife Maud.

Parent: Heribert I, 950-906
This profile: Heribert II, 880-943
Child: Robert, 931-968

Sources

  1. 1.00 1.01 1.02 1.03 1.04 1.05 1.06 1.07 1.08 1.09 1.10 1.11 1.12 1.13 1.14 1.15 1.16 1.17 1.18 1.19 1.20 1.21 Stewart Baldwin. Heribert II, The Henry Project. First uploaded 23 May 2007, revised 2008, 2011. http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/herib002.htm. Accessed May 24, 2017. jhd
  2. 2.00 2.01 2.02 2.03 2.04 2.05 2.06 2.07 2.08 2.09 2.10 2.11 2.12 Wikipedia. Herbert II Count of Vermandois. Wikipedia: Herbert II, Count of Vermandois
  3. 3.0 3.1 3.2 3.3 Cawley, Foundation for Medieval Genealogy, Medieval Lands Database, Northern France Ref 2185
  4. 4.00 4.01 4.02 4.03 4.04 4.05 4.06 4.07 4.08 4.09 4.10 4.11 4.12 4.13 4.14 4.15 Douglas Richardson. Royal Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families. Kimball G Everingham, Editor. Salt Lake City, Utah: By the Author, 2013. Volume V, p. 485
  5. 5.0 5.1 5.2 Cawley, Foundation for Medieval Genealogy, Medieval Lands Database. Northern France Ref 943
  6. 6.0 6.1 6.2 6.3 6.4 Jim Bradbury, The Capetians: Kings of France, 987-1328 (London: Hambledon Continuum, 2007), p. 36. Cited by Wikipeedia.
  7. 7.0 7.1 7.2 7.3 7.4 7.5 Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Band III Teilband 1 (Marburg, Germany: J. A. Stargardt, 1984), Tafel 49. Cited by Wikipedia
  8. Christian Settipani, La préhistoire des Capétiens 481-987 (Première partie - Mérovingiens, Carolingiens et Robertiens) (Villeneuve d'Ascq, 1993). 224, n. 231, cited by Stewart Baldwin. Heribert II, The Henry Project. First uploaded 23 May 2007, revised 2008, 2011. http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/herib002.htm. Accessed May 24, 2017. jhd
  9. 9.0 9.1 9.2 9.3 Charles Cawley, Foundation for Medieval Genealogy, Medieval Lands Database. Adela Capet
  10. 10.0 10.1 Cawley, Foundation for Medieval Genealogy, Medieval Lands Database [1]
  11. The Annals of Flodoard of Reims, 919–966, eds. Steven Fanning; Bernard S. Bachrach (Toronto: University of Toronto Press Inc., 2011), p. 21 n. 77. Cited by Wikipedia.
  12. Émile Mabille, Introduction au Chroniques des Comtes d'Anjou (Société de l'Histoire de France, vol. 155, Paris, 1871), xcviii-c cited by Stewart Baldwin. Heribert II, The Henry Project. First uploaded 23 May 2007, revised 2008, 2011. http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/herib002.htm. Accessed May 24, 2017. jhd
  13. [Flodoard, Annales, s.a. 931, 51, Cited by Stewart Baldwin. Heribert II, The Henry Project. First uploaded 23 May 2007, revised 2008, 2011. http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/herib002.htm. Accessed May 24, 2017. jhd
  14. 14.0 14.1 Emily Taitz, The Jews of Medieval France: The Community of Champagne (Westport CT: Greenwood Press, 1994), p. 42. Cited by Wikipedia.
  15. King Charles was the godfather to one of Herbert II's sons. See: Rodulfus Glaber, The Five Books of the Histories, ed. & trans. John France (Oxford: The Clarendon Press, 1989), pp. 12-13 n. 1.
  16. The Annals of Flodoard of Reims, 916–966, eds & trans. Steven Fanning: Bernard S. Bachrach (New York; Ontario, Can: University of Toronto Press, 2011), pp. 14-15. Cited by Wikipedia.
  17. Flodoard, s.a. 925, MGH SS 3: 376], cited by Stewart Baldwin, "Herbert II", The Henry Project. First uploaded 23 May 2007, revised 2008, 2011. http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/herib002.htm. Accessed May 24, 2017. jhd
  18. Eleanor Shipley Duckett, Death and life in the tenth century (Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press, 1967), p. 155. Cited by Wikipedia.
  19. 19.0 19.1 The Annals of Flodoard of Reims, 916–966, eds & trans. Steven Fanning: Bernard S. Bachrach (New York; Ontario, Can: University of Toronto Press, 2011), p. 21. Cited by Wikipedia.
  20. The Annals of Flodoard of Reims, 916–966, eds & trans. Steven Fanning: Bernard S. Bachrach (New York; Ontario, Can: University of Toronto Press, 2011), pp. 20-24. Cited by Wikipedia.
  21. 21.0 21.1 Eleanor Shipley Duckett, Death and life in the tenth century (Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press, 1967), p. 157. Cited by Wikipedia.
  22. The date of 23 February comes from the necrology of the church of Reims [Longnon (1909), 229, n. 4, cited by Stewart Baldwin. Heribert II, The Henry Project. First uploaded 23 May 2007, revised 2008, 2011. http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/herib002.htm. Accessed May 24, 2017. jhd
  23. Kate Norgate, 'Odo of Champagne, Count of Blois and Tyrant of Burgundy', The English Historical Review, Vol. 5, No. 19 (Jul., 1890), p. 488. Cited by Wikipedia.
  24. 24.0 24.1 Cawley, Foundation for Medieval Genealogy, Medieval lands Database. Northern France. Reference 2195
  25. Cawley, Foundation for Medieval Genealogy, Medieval lands Database. Northern France. Reference 2212
  26. Cawley, Foundatioin for Medieval Genealogy. Medieval Lands Database. [2]
  27. 27.0 27.1 27.2 27.3 Cawley, Foundation for Medieval Genealogy, Medieval Lands Database. [3]
  28. AR7 = Frederick Lewis Weis (with additions and corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr.), Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists Who Came to America before 1700 (7th, ed., Baltimore, 1992). Cited by Stewart Baldwin, Henry Project.

Acknowledgements

This profile has been edited in accordance with the Wikitree style guide for Biographies, Sources, and Acknowledgements. Details of merges, edits and other contributions may be found under the Changes tab.



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Images: 2
Herbert II de Vermandois Image 1
Herbert II de Vermandois Image 1

Chart of Paternal Royal and Noble Ancestors
Chart of Paternal Royal and Noble Ancestors

Collaboration

On 13 May 2015 at 19:33 GMT John Atkinson wrote:

UNKNOWN-18277 and Vermandois-13 do not represent the same person because: Only based on death of daughter of Unknown-18277, he is a better match to Vermandois-4 and will propose that merge.

On 17 Apr 2015 at 19:32 GMT Roger Travis Jr. wrote:

Something got terribly messed up in this profile, Senlis-4. Merging seems the best option.

On 17 Apr 2015 at 19:21 GMT Sheri (Petersen) Sturm wrote:

Senlis-4 and Vermandois-13 appear to represent the same person because: Although the dates do not match perfectly, it appears they have the same bios. (hopefully not a mix-up.) Vermandois is the LNAB, Senlis is short for de Senlis, which means "from Senlis."

On 10 Apr 2015 at 22:14 GMT John Atkinson wrote:

Count de Vermandois-1 and Vermandois-13 appear to represent the same person because: Please merge these profiles, Vermandois-13 is the preferred LNAB according to European Aristocrat project naming standards. Heribert is the preferred first name.



Herbert II is 33 degrees from Robin Helstrom, 32 degrees from Katy Jurado and 24 degrees from Victoria of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland on our single family tree. Login to find your connection.

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