Héribert (Vermandois) de Vermandois
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Héribert (Vermandois) de Vermandois (abt. 0850 - bef. 0906)

Héribert "Comte de Soissons et Meaux et Vermandois, Abbé de Saint-Quentin" de Vermandois formerly Vermandois
Born about in Francemap
Ancestors ancestors
Son of and [mother unknown]
Husband of — married before 0880 [location unknown]
Descendants descendants
Died before in Vermandois, Francemap [uncertain]
Profile last modified | Created 10 Sep 2010
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European Aristocracy
Héribert (Vermandois) de Vermandois was a member of aristocracy in Europe.
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Contents

Biography

Notables Project
Héribert (Vermandois) de Vermandois is Notable.

Heribert was a Carolingian aristocrat who played a significant role in Francia.[1]

Name and Titles

  • Héribert I was Count of Vermandois and Soissons. [2]
  • He was Count of Soissons and lay-abbot of Saint-Crépin.[3] [1]
  • Herbert I, Count of Vermandois[1]
  • Count of Meaux, [1]

850 Birth and Parentage

Charles Cawley (Medlands) estimates the birth in the time period 848-840. [4] Other writers often use an estimated birth year of 850.[5] Stewart Baldwin (Henry Project) reminds us that Heribert's actual date and place of birth are unknown.[3]

He was a younger son of Pepin of Vermandois. Cawley notes that if Regino's account gave the proper order for Pepin's the three children, Heribert would have been the youngest of them: "Bernardum, Pippinum et Heribertum" [6]

Baldwin states that Heribert's mother is unknown. [3] "The idea that she was a member of the "Nibelungen" family (descendants of Childebrand, son of Charles Martel) is a conjecture based on the fact that Heribert I's predecessors in some of his possessions belonged to that family, and on the presence of the name Heribert in that family [see Werner (1960), 101-6]." [3]

A contemporary of Baldwin II, Count of Flanders he had the advantage of being a Carolingian, a great-grandson of Pepin of Italy, a son of Charlemagne. [7]

Marriage to Lietgardis

There having been no issues regarding the legitimacy of his children, we know that Heribert was married. However, Baldwin, the source most unwilling to surmise, states that Heribert's wife or wives are unknown. [3]

Cawley notes that he married Lietgardis who died 27 May, year uncertain. [8]

Fictional Marriage to Bertha

Frederick Weis names "Bertha de Morvois" as Heribert's wife. [9] and Wikipedia follows suit. [1]

Baldwin states very strongly, however, that Berthe, daughter of Guerri (Wedricus), count of Morvois, and his wife Eva is a falsely-attributed wife of Heribert, whose relationship is only fictional.[3] Baldwin notes that the source of this fiction is the Historia Walciodorensis Monasterii, which includes a fabricated genealogy. The result of the fabrication is that the Historia's subject, Ybert, is falsely made a relative of Count Heribert, and Ybert's mother Berthe becomes Heribert's wife. [3]

In recognition of this fiction, Bertha has been delinked as a wife of Heribert, and his children are not shown as her children.

877 Heribert With Brother Pépin arranges meeting Pope and Emperor

Heribert "first appears in records in 877, when he and his brother Pépin were among those sent by emperor Charles the Bald to prepare for a meeting between the pope and emperor." [3]

889 Count of Soissons

Herbert became count of Soissons before 889 and was probably charged with defending the Oise against Viking intrusions. [1]

889 Reign

Heribert succeeded Pepin, his predecessor, as Count of Vermandois, in 889. [1]

893 Heribert With Brother Pépin and Charles the Simple

In 1893 Heribert and Pepin supported the accession of Charles III, the Simple, as King of the West Franks in opposition to King Eudes. Regino, who recorded this, does not specify Heribert and Pepin's relationship. [6] Regino does record that both Heribert and Pepin are present with Charles upon his elevation as king. [3]

896 Meaux and murder of brother Raoul

He succeeded Theodebert as Count of Meaux in 896.[1]

Baldwin reports that in 896, "Heribert killed Raoul, brother of count Baldwin II..., who had been expelled earlier that year from the countship of Vermandois, and it is probably in this year that Heribert became count of Vermandois and lay-abbot of Saint-Quentin." [3] As reported in Latin, Heribert killed "Rodulfum comitem filium Balduini comitis". [6]

907 Death

"Heribert last appears in 900 (the year that Annales Vedastini end). Baldwin adds that "Regino of Prüm, writing ca. 906, in comments added to the obituary of king Bernard of Italy under the year 818, mentions that Bernard's grandson Heribert had killed count Rodulf, son of Baldwin, in Regino's own time, and that Heribert was killed not long after by a supporter (also named Baldwin) of Rodulf's brother Baldwin [II] of Flanders." [3]

Thus Heribert's death would have occurred between 900 and 906, place unknown. [3]

He died in 907. Herbert II, his successor, began his own reign in 907.[1]

Issue

There is some uncertainty regarding Heribert's children. Cawley states he had two proven children and two speculative. [8] Baldwin considers all the children unproved, two of whom are highly probable (Heribert and an unnamed daughter), one conjectured (Adela), and one falsely attributed (Beatrix). [3]

Currently linked on Wikitree and Very Probable

  1. Heribert II, born 880. [8] Stewart Baldwin [3] believes Heribert II as son of Heribert I is "very probable" though not proven. He notes a number of scholars have simply assumed the relationship without documenting it. The earliest source he found appearing to document the relationship, an eleventh century Angevin genealogical table, contains an error thwarting its usefulness. Baldwin notes that "the strongest piece of indirect evidence for Heribert II's parentage is that he is found in possession of the lands which were also held by his namesake Heribert I, e.g. Soissons, Vermandois. [3] Heribert II, b. say 880, d. 23 February 943, count of Meaux, Soissons, and Vermandois, and abbot of Saint-Crépin and Saint-Médard (Soissons), 900×7-943; m. before 907, Adèle, daughter of Robert of Neustria (later Robert I, king of France).[3] Herbert II, Count of Vermandois, succeeded his father. [5]
  2. Unknown, born 890-900 [8], very probably a daughter of Heribert, who married Udo, count of Wetterau. An entry in Flodoard's annals for the year 946 shows that Udo had married an aunt of bishop Hugues, also mentioning Arnulf, who had married the bishop's sister. "Since Hugues was a son of Heribert II and Arnolf (I of Flanders) was married to a duaghter of Heribert II, Udo's wife would be a sister of Heribert" (II). [3] Cawley gives the daughter's wife as Cunigundis [8] following Settipani and Jackman [10] Cunegonda of Vermandois († aft. 943) who married Eudo, Count in the Wetterau. [5] Baldwin rejects the theory that this un-named daughter was Beatrix, wife of Robert I of France. [3]

Conjectured daughter

  1. Adela or Adèle is a conjectured daughter whose existence is based on a chain of arguments related to the parentage of Heribert, count of Kinziggau (d. 992) and involving the identification of an Adele, who appears on a Reichenau memorial list with Heribert of Vermandois in order to explain the appearance of the name Heribert in a branch of the Konradiner dynasty. [3] Adela is said to have married Gebhard, Graf im Ufgau[8] Since it is possible that Heribert had a daughter named Adela, the link to her as a child has been retained.

Falsely attributed child: The Legend of Beatrix de Vermandois

In legend, Heribert had a daughter Beatrix, who married Robert I, King of France. Cawley cites such a person -- Beatrix de Vermandois born 880/3 and died after 26 Mar 931, and married in 897. [8]

There are several strong reasons why Baldwin regards Beatrix, as a daughter of Heribert, to be false, and her existence legendary. These are discussed on the page for Beatrix de Vermandois.

King Robert I did marry a Beatrix, however, but she was not a daughter of Heribert. The claim that Robert married a sister of Heribert II appears first in the twelfth century. Since Heribert II married a daughter of Robert, this may have originated the legend that Heribert Ii had a sister named Beatrix. [3]

As a legendary person who never existed, Beatrix is not linked to any parents, spouse or children, but her profile is cross-referenced here.

Line of Descent from Charlemagne to William the Conqueror

Douglas Richardson [2] provides one line of descent from Charlemagne to William the Conqueror and four lines of descent from Charlemagne to William's wife Maud.

Parent: Pepin, 815-850
This profile: Heribert, 850-906
Child: Heribert, 880-943

Sources

  1. 1.0 1.1 1.2 1.3 1.4 1.5 1.6 1.7 1.8 Wikipedia. Herbert I, Count of Vermandois. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_I%2C_Count_of_Vermandois. Accessed May 6, 2017. jhd
  2. 2.0 2.1 Douglas Richardson. Royal Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families. Kimball G. Everengham, ed. Salt Lake City, Utah: 2013. Volume V, page 484
  3. 3.00 3.01 3.02 3.03 3.04 3.05 3.06 3.07 3.08 3.09 3.10 3.11 3.12 3.13 3.14 3.15 3.16 3.17 3.18 3.19 Stewart Baldwin. "Heribert I" The Henry Project. First uploaded 23 May 2007. http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/herib001.htm. Accessed May 6, 2017. jhd
  4. Charles Cawley, Foundation for Medieval Genealogy. Medieval Lands Database, Northern France. [1]
  5. 5.0 5.1 5.2 Jean Dunbabin, France in the making, 843-1180 (Oxford; New York: Oxford University Press, 2000), p. 95. Cited in Wikipedia.
  6. 6.0 6.1 6.2 Cawley, Foundation for Medieval Genealogy. Frankish Nobility. Medieval Lands Database - Pepin Accessed Feb 20, 2017 jhd
  7. Jean Dunbabin, France in the making, 843-1180 (Oxford; New York: Oxford University Press, 2000), p. 95. Wikipedia. Herbert I, Count of Vermandois. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_I%2C_Count_of_Vermandois. Accessed May 6, 2017. jhd
  8. 8.0 8.1 8.2 8.3 8.4 8.5 8.6 Cawley, Foundation for Medieval Genealogy. Medieval Lands Database.[2].
  9. Weis, F.L. (2004). Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists who Came to America Before 1700: Lineages from Alfred the Great, Charlemagne, Malcolm of Scotland, Robert the Strong, and Other Historical Individuals, (pp. 57). Geneological Publishing co. eBook.[3]
  10. Settipani (1993), 222-3, Jackman (1997) 36,38, cited by Stewart Baldwin, Henry Project.

Acknowledgments

This profile has been edited in accordance with the Wikitree style guide for Biographies, Sources, and Acknowledgements. Details of merges, edits and other contributions may be found under the Changes tab.



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Comments: 6

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Based on Stewart Baldwin's Henry Project, I"m de-linking Beatrix as a daughter. Since she has widespread presence among various genealogies and on the internet, her profile will continue as "legend" documenting as much as possible how she came to be believed as the daughter of Heribert and wife of Robert.
posted by Jack Day
Bertha has been delinked as wife and as mother of Heribert's children.
posted by Jack Day
Based on Stewart Baldwin's Henry Project, I propose to de-link Bertha as wife of Heribert. A link will be retained in the narrative.
posted by Jack Day
I'm adding research of Richardson, Cawley and Baldwin (Henry Project) to this profile. As a result of their research, de-linking one of the spouses and one or more of the children may be appropriate. FYI!
posted by Jack Day
Could this profile be set to Open privacy level. He is definitely older than 200 years, and probably needs to be merged.
posted by John Atkinson
Vermandois-3 and Vermandois-83 appear to represent the same person because: Nearly the same birth/death dates, and the same spouses. Thanks.
posted by Bob Fields