need to change LNAB "Holdlien" to "ap ..." Holdlien or Holdlien Goch or Hoedlyw? [closed]

Question

His father's given name Holdlien is a new name to me (as is Hoedlyw).

I need to change the LNAB to include ap - or ab? Does his father's given name begin with a vowel sound?

I'm hoping that someone who speaks Welsh might answer that question and also maybe have an idea of of which spelling would be closer to correct, if either is.

A soundex search came up with Huddyll (which Google translated from the Welsh as "ugly" - so his Dad was Ugly Red :D).

I can almost think Huddyll might have gotten written as Hoedlyw (or vice versa) but I don't see the leap from them to Holdlien, which is how it's spelled in one of the profile's sources (the [Google Book]).* DBE suggestions include a wikidata page for him, citing thepeerage (which cites an e-mail), WeRelate (which cites Bartrum, Elystan Glodrydd 1) and WikiTree. (The [wikidata page] calls him Hoedlyw, as does WeRelate - referencing Bartrum, so I'm leaning toward Hoedlyw.)

 * The other source listed is Montgomeryshire Visitations ([vol 1, page 290]), but if either Hoedlyw or Holdlien is on that page, I missed it.

Answer 1

It should be "Hoedlyw", not "Holdlien" (or properly "Hoedlyw ap Cadwgan"); see for instance here, and here, and also here which references "Dwnn, Vol. 1, p. 251" for Hoedlyw Goch.

Comments

Thanks so much! Next question, it seems Dwnn & Wolcott use "i" in the spelling - Hoeldliw - instead of Hoeldlyw. Looking at Welsh language sites, I happened on the use of "liw", which I discovered means "color"! (Someday I'll try to learn Welsh... I picked up a couple of phrases when I visited a few years ago, but I digress.)

Anyway, I didn't find an answer about i or y at "The Welsh Grammar" (although the Appendix starting at page 178 is really interesting). However, p 151 used an example with the word color in it, which I found by searching for "liw".

So now I'm leaning toward "ap Hoedliw" as the LNAB for Gwrgenen (son of Hoedliw/Hoedlyw/Holdien Goch - whose profile has the correct LNAB of ap Cadwgan).

A couple of references have "ab", but most have "ap".

Thoughts on Hoedliw vs Hoedlyw?

---

"Language and Place Names in Wales" says "The medieval personal name Hoedlyw probably contains the element hoedl and byw (but might feasibly, in some instances, be composed of hawdd and llyw)". Those mean either "age-living" or "easy rudder", in the sense of "a steady hand on the tiller".

---

A bit nicer than ugly red :D