Question

Is there interest in starting a project of Scotch-Irish genealogy? [closed]

Comments

Jim,

Were you thinking the Scotch-Irish immigrants from Catholic Ireland or just Scotch-Irish folks in general?

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The Scotch-Irish Protestants of the north of Ireland Plantations in the 17th century.

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Sounds interesting. Could be helpful at the very least.

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Some of the comments above can give the mistaken impression that all of the Protestants in Ireland, or at least in Northern Ireland, are descended from the "planters" of the 17th and 18th centuries, and that they were all Scots Irish. In reality, many of the planters were English or Welsh, or even descended from French Huguenots. There was always a substantial native Irish Protestant population, as well. Moreover, after 300 years, the populations are so intermarried that there's no way to distinguish them.

When Henry VIII and Elizabeth I proclaimed the independence of the English church, not all Catholics in Ireland refused to go along. Some became Anglican by conviction; others changed religion for mercenary reasons; others were educated in Anglican schools (because the government supported those schools) and ended up feeling more comfortable as Protestants. Through the centuries, there were changes of religion in both directions, for all sorts of reasons, including intermarriage.

Some Americans think that if their families, descended from an ancestor in Ireland, were Protestant, they were really of Scots culture, not Irish. This is possibly true for the American immigrants who had been in Ireland for only a generation, or maybe even the second generation, especially if they had Scots surnames and were Presbyterian. Other than that it's a very misleading assertion, especially for later arrivals.

There are other misconceptions about the plantations. They were not all in Northern Ireland; there were numerous in the south. They didn't fill all of northern Ireland, but mostly the northern and eastern parts of the north. And they certainly didn't cause a mass migration of Catholics out of the northern counties, or of Protestants in the other direction. The two populations lived side by side for hundreds of years and mostly lived in relative peace, especially in the rural areas.

For well over 1000 years, there has been migration back and forth between Ireland and Scotland. For this reason, DNA analysis doesn't usually help to separate the two ethnicities.

My family were recent immigrants to the US from Northern Ireland; all four of my grandparents, as well as my father, were born there, in Counties Tyrone and Fermanagh. Although Protestant, they all considered themselves Irish, born into the Church of Ireland.  One of my great-grandmothers had a surname (Griffin) thatcould be Welsh, so she was possibly of planter extraction, but she spoke Irish Gaelic. In the area where she was born, there are still many Griffins; some are Protestant and some are Catholic. Northern Ireland was a real melting pot.

Two of my grandparents have surnames that are probably native Irish; the others (Vaughan and Brown) are ambiguous. Many Irish people anglicized their surnames; for example,"Brehon" became "Brown", or "Cleary" became "Clark", or "Mahon" became "Vaughan". (This also happened in Scotland, making many surnames ambiguous.)

To sum it up, just as Italians or Germans who immigrated to the US in the 1800s were Americans within two generations, and intermarried with other nationalities, so Scots who emigrated to Ireland in the 1600s and then left for the US 100 years later, had by then absorbed much of the culture of Ireland, and intermarried with Irish neighbors.

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Yes, in deed,  My Greer-Taylor's  were Scot/Irish.. WAAAAyyyy back..

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count me in too please.

From my adopted family there are plenty of Scotts and some English

From my biological maternal great grandparents - I've brickcwalled at the Irish

I have in-law (and outlaws) from English + Scotts + Irish + Welsh

I am very new and keen to be pointed in positive directions

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Sharon  I've sent you a private message to take your post forward

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As a matter of interest, were the Irish Catholic BEFORE the Spanish invasion September 1588?

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Hi Sharon,  According to Wikipedia Christianity started in Ireland in the 5th century ! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Ireland

Answer 1

Count me in! The Scotish Presbyterians set up plantations in Ulster province of Ireland , now the Country of Northern Ireland. When the Presbyterians fell out of favor with the British Anglican crown, they emigrated to the Southern United States which were still British colonies, and they set up similar plantations. So there is a lot of emigration from Scotland to Northern Ireland to Georgia, the Carolinas, Virginia, Alabama, etc between 1690 and 1865.

Comments

I have found the Scots-Irish population in Ireland present unique challenges for the line I am researching as there are very rather sparse Irish (actually County Donegal) sources on-line compared to those in the America's later and in Scotland earlier.  In my case these were Scots that came from landed families that seemed to move to Ireland due to religious persecution and for better opportunities (partticularly if they were not first born males). Once in Ireland as part of the plantations, they seem to longer be in the ruling class, so the sources of information seem to be more scarce. Is this a common experience for other reserachers?

My impression from limited reading is that while the Irish largely got displaced from the northern counties in Ireland and clearly got the worse of it as part of the plantation movement, that Scots were not treated terribly well either once they arrived. Hence they migrated to the Americas in large numbers.

By the way mine came first to Pennsylvania and largely moved south but some did move west.

I'm undecided if this merits a seperate project. Perhaps we track under the Irish project and see if it generates enough traffic over time to be split out.

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Exactly,

My Protestant Irish forebearer born 1680 in Ireland died 1720 in James City County, VA.  By 1784 they were in Georgia.

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I have identified at least three ancestral lines of Ulster Scots who arrived in America in the 1700s. They settled in Massachusetts and eastern Pennsylvania, (they never moved south or west). It's my understanding that they were Scots, and at least two of the three families were in Ireland for only about one generation  before they left for America. They weren't Irish -- they were no more Irish than the Puritan families who settled in Holland were Dutch. However, their short sojourn in Ireland, coupled with the politics surrounding their departures from Scotland and Ireland, created an information gap that makes it more difficult to trace the families from Scotland to America. I'd be interested in a discussion group (not necessarily a project) devoted to matters related to researching these people and understanding their history.

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Having lived in the South for most ofmy life, I am more familiar with population groups who moved to southern colonies.. Scots in particular, coming from northern climates, tend to be fair skinned and red haired, a legacy from their Danish/Viking forebearers. When these folk settled in the southern colonies, they were the first to get sunburned, which is the origin of our term Redneck, Unfortunately,  this term as evolved linguistically to mean any poor whites in the south.

Like Tara of Gone With the Wind fame, most plantations were lost in our Civil War of the 1860s, however not all of the white population settlng in the South were rich plantation owners. It would be interesting to study which population groups settled the southern USA, their numbers, economic standing over time, etc., and how many of them have Scot, Irish or English roots, which was probably the majority. This may require collaboration of the Irish Roots folks, the Scottish clans folks and the Southern colonies project.

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JIm Webb's book "Born Fighting: How the Scots-Irish Helped Shape America" provides a fascinating tale of the impact of the Scots-Irish on America. He makes a case for the Scots-Irish generally being fiercly independent, risk-taking adventurers with a great distrust of broad centralized government powers. It is rather easy reading book as nonfiction books go. While he discussed some of his ancestors, the book is not a family genealogy.

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Just to remind everyone that there are three counties in Ulster in the Republic...

...and should probably check the date on posts to avoid commenting on something five years' old 

Answer 2

Hi Jim,

We have several projects already established that would probably fit the bill. The UK Project, Irish Roots, and Scottish Clans all would cover a heritage in Ireland and Scotland. If you see an area that needs covered yet, let us know. The Leaders of thos projects are working to make sure there is something for everyone who has roots in that area.

Comments

Hello Jim,

If you're interested in Scottish/irish genealogy drop me a message and I'll see how I can be of help to you.

All the best

Billy

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Billy,

Many thanks.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Jim

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Problem is that there are 3 projects which might apply, but none are specific to the Scots-Irish.  Comments and contributions are spread out among all.

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Me too. Having lots of difficulty tracing an ancestory born in County Fermanagh in 1797, originally from Scottish border country.

Answer 3

Yes, I would be quite interested. Quite a few ancestors were Scotch-Irish...

Answer 4

Hi Folks,  Can you give me an idea of what you would be looking for re Scottish-Irish ancestors which you feel is not covered in our current projects and we'll see what we can do.    Maria

Comments

The Scot-Irish differ from the regular Irish in that they had more political freedom, different churches, were counted in more censuses, owned land, and allowed to do business in Ireland during the 1700s, while the Catholic Irish were not. Catholic Irish usually have Gaellic Roots, while Presbyterian and other Protestant Irish have roots in England and Scotland.

Answer 5

Jim,  How about Scots-Irish?  Scotch Irish is an American invention, probably by someone who was neither Scot nor Irish.  Scotch is a barley whiskey or a flavor.  Those Scots who were part of King James VI of Scotland, King James I (Stuart Dynasty if you are Scot; Stewart Dynasty if you are English)  of the United Kingdom's (as the first monarch of the UK) Plantation of Counties Tyrconnell (Donegal back then), Coleraine (Derry back then) , Fermanagh, Tyrone, Cavan and Armagh.  The Scots who participated were largely but not completely from Scotland's lowland provinces of Galloway and Dumphries.  Private "plantations" of Ulster Counties Antrim and Down coincided with James' plantation.  I do not know anything about County Monaghan which is the 9th county of  pre-1922 Ireland province of Ulster.  That year Northern Ireland was formed by incorporating six of the 9 Ulster Counties.  Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan remained a part of Ireland.  In northern Ireland those scots transplanted were known as Ulster-Scots.  Scots-Irish were those Ulster Scots who came to America, largely in the 1700s.  More later if you are interested. - Dave McCracken

Comments

Actually, they were called Scotch up until the early 60s, I think my mother said. She was from Glasgow and served in WWII, so she was around to hear it.

Answer 6

I would be interested.  I have an ancestor who by family record was born in County Fermanagh but am having huge difficulty finding anything official about him.  Project could be helpful and I'd participate.

Answer 7

How about some references on the above?

Comments

Just a quick google search

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch-Irish_American

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/magazine/articles/iha_scotsus1.htm

http://www.barlowgenealogy.com/Resources/scots-irish.html

Answer 8

To those who come across this question,

Although not up for creating a project specific to this subject, I have created a category, "Scots-Irish Immigrants to America" sub categorized under 

Categories: Immigration | American Immigration | Scottish Immigrants to America | Irish Immigrants to America

It seems to me that this is a distinct phenomenon to either Irish or Scottish  immigration to America because of its two stage process. Of course it relates to both because of the religious and economic factors that led to the families leaving Scotland first and Ireland later, however, I believe it would be wrong (offensive to some) if it was lumped in with Irish immigration and leaves out an important aspect of the history if lumped in with those that emigrated directly from Scotland to the Americas.

Comments

Cameron,

Consistent with the earlier comment by "anonymous" (above), could you please recreate that category as "Scots-Irish Immigrants to America"?

Semantics can be important, and since the category currently has only one member, it won't take a lot of heavy lifting to recreate it with a more semantically appropriate name.

PS - I have a couple of ancestors to add to the category, but I'll hold off on doing that until it has a new name. Like your first entry, my Ulster Scots ancestors immigrated to New England, not the southern U.S.

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Ellen,

Thank you for pointing that out. Like anonymous (signed Dave McCraken) points out, even Scots-Irish, is a construct. I like the term Ulster-Scots but not many people who haven't done at least a little reading on the subject would recognize whom that was referring to. Anyway, change is made.

Answer 9

Ancestry.com estimates my genetic makeup as 25% Irish. I am interested in this project concept, but share the concern of others about how a Scots-Irish (or Ulster Scots, as I believe they are known on the British Isles) project would handle overlap with present Irish and Scottish projects. I have several ancestors from northern Ireland including some who settled in New Hampshire and Maine during the early 1700s (when Maine was still part of Massachusetts) and another who settled on Prince Edward Island in the 1830s. The latter individual apparently sailed from Glasgow, Scotland, where he had been living in impoverished conditions with individuals displaced from their ancestral homes by the Highland Clearances.  It appears these immigrants to North America were from families displaced from ancestral homelands in either Ireland or Scotland. Poverty seems to have encouraged strong alliances among local populations; and both ethnic identification and religious affiliation of these tenant farmers was often from the last place of residence of a population who had historically moved back and forth at the whim of feudal landlords.

Comments

I think a Scots-Irish group would be very helpful since many members of clans fled Scotland for Ireland when the rulers were against them and returned when things settled down again. We would need some leaders who can look up original documents as we all know how hard it is to source material, at least for Scotland. It doesn't really matter to me which project "discovers" a piece of information as it will be entered online just like all the other pieces. We will ALL see it and we can use it in other projects as it comes online. You'll never get a diverse group of people to agree on what to name a project or what the finite limits should be, so I vote for starting the group and seeing how it pans out.

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And vice versa. My roots are Irish-Scots. Glasgow-Irish, to be specific. My mother's side of the family emigrated to Scotland for the Famine.

Answer 10

Jim,

I think the voluminous response you've received is indication of a need for a special Scots-Irish project.  I wouldn't object at all to making it a subgroup of another project such as Scottish Clans, Irish, or U.K. but I'm sure we could succeed better if we worked together.

I've got nearly all my family traced back 300 years or so except for those stubborn Scots-Irish!  The problems are unique and the idea of a special project keeps coming up.

Answer 11

If we create a "Scots-Irish and Ulster Scots" sub project as part of the UK Project who would be interested in  leading /co-ordinating  or co-leading  it ?