Comments on Elen ferch Thomas

Question

Is there any reason not to link Elen to her mother? Several sources confirm her parentage and there are no alternative mothers being considered. 

On 29 Mar 2020 Monica Edmunds wrote on Ferch_Thomas-8:

some sources showing both women had the same mother, Margaret/Margred being the younger sister Burke (in various works, this entry typical) [https://books.google.ca/books?id=YdIKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA737&dq=%22eleanor+goch%22+OR+%22ellen+goch%22+OR+%22elen+goch%22+AND+margaret&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj0q6CO_L_oAhWuiOAKHYwBAx0Q6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=%22eleanor%20goch%22%20OR%20%22ellen%20goch%22%20OR%20%22elen%20goch%22%20AND%20margaret&f=false] English works of the Rev. Walter Davies (Gwallter Mechain) p 64 By Walter Davies [https://books.google.ca/books?id=36YNAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA64&dq=%22eleanor+goch%22+OR+%22ellen+goch%22+OR+%22elen+goch%22+AND+margaret&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj0q6CO_L_oAhWuiOAKHYwBAx0Q6AEIOTAC#v=onepage&q=%22eleanor%20goch%22%20OR%20%22ellen%20goch%22%20OR%20%22elen%20goch%22%20AND%20margaret&f=false] The Cambro-Briton, Volume 1 [https://books.google.ca/books?id=YUdZAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA457&dq=%22eleanor+goch%22+OR+%22ellen+goch%22+OR+%22elen+goch%22+AND+margaret&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj0q6CO_L_oAhWuiOAKHYwBAx0Q6AEISzAE#v=onepage&q=%22eleanor%20goch%22%20OR%20%22ellen%20goch%22%20OR%20%22elen%20goch%22%20AND%20margaret&f=false] The Analyst: A Quarterly Journal of Science, Literature, Natural ..., Volume 2 edited by Edward Mammatt, p. 82 [https://books.google.ca/books?id=r-MRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA82&dq=%22eleanor+goch%22+OR+%22ellen+goch%22+OR+%22elen+goch%22+AND+margaret&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj0q6CO_L_oAhWuiOAKHYwBAx0Q6AEIbDAI#v=onepage&q=%22eleanor%20goch%22%20OR%20%22ellen%20goch%22%20OR%20%22elen%20goch%22%20AND%20margaret&f=false] Enwogion Ceredigion By Benjamin Williams p 192 [https://books.google.ca/books?id=ZrMHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA192&dq=%22eleanor+goch%22+OR+%22ellen+goch%22+OR+%22elen+goch%22+AND+margaret&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj52ov__r_oAhWMnOAKHRAhAc44HhDoAQgwMAE#v=onepage&q=%22eleanor%20goch%22%20OR%20%22ellen%20goch%22%20OR%20%22elen%20goch%22%20AND%20margaret&f=false] Gweithiau Iolo Goch: gyda nodiadau hanesyddol a beiriadol By Iolo (Goch), Charles Ashton p. 156 [https://books.google.ca/books?id=x3G0AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA156&dq=%22eleanor+goch%22+OR+%22ellen+goch%22+OR+%22elen+goch%22+AND+margaret&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj52ov__r_oAhWMnOAKHRAhAc44HhDoAQhFMAM#v=onepage&q=%22eleanor%20goch%22%20OR%20%22ellen%20goch%22%20OR%20%22elen%20goch%22%20AND%20margaret&f=false]

Comments

I've added some tags for the Wales project.

Answer 1

Actually, the reasons not to add the mother are addressed in the biographical narrative itself, and the profile is project-protected specifically to prevent a mother being added.  Once there is a controversy related to a relationship, the bar for documentation becomes much higher.

Comments

The only "controversy" shown on her profile is that the manager did not find a source showing the two women as sisters. I provided several. 

And if you look at the profile for Elen's grandson, you will see that she is called that on his profile. 

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Ap_Gruffudd-35

So we are contradicting ourselves. 

And you will note that Wikitree itself calls Maredudd and Owain cousins. 

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Maredudd_ap_Tudur

If nothing else, she should be added as "uncertain" although I don't see why. BTB is Boyer citing Bartrum the only reason for calling her uncertain? How accurate is Bartrum, generally?

Answer 2

Hi Monica,

I appreciate that you have gone to some trouble to find all these sources, but I also notice that all the sources in your question are secondary sources, and none of them cite any sources at all, let alone the all important primary/original sources we like to see for pre-1500 profiles.  Perhaps there is more discussion on other pages, that does cite sources?

I know I can be too cautious but I would want to see more reliable sources before adding the mother to Elen.

Comments

These are all published sources, some of them Welsh, so more reliable than most. None of them are family trees or modern website compilations, which is what I would think of as secondary sources. I can't imagine what sources you might consider better or "primary" in the context of 14th century Wales.

So far as I can tell, the sources listed are as early as we can get. Keep in mind that 14th century wills and ipms are scarce, baptismal and marriage records nonexistant, and if any of these things are mentioned, they would most likely be quoted...in one of the aforementioned published sources.

I might note that her sister is attached to their mother and the sources afforded her are, if anything, less compelling. They are all the kind of rehashed 20th century compilations I would consider secondary sources. And they are likely all based on the earlier ones I cited.

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My "go to" general resource for medieval Welsh genealogy is Carl Boyer, 3rd, Medieval Welsh Ancestors of Certain Americans.  In his entry for Thomas ap Llywelyn ab Owain ap maredudd, #74 on page 316, Boyer shows Thomas child, Elen, "by first wife, given by Bartrum," Eleanor ferch Maredudd.  Boyer goes on to note that the child Maredudd is by Thomas' second wife, and that the mother of children Margred, Owain, and Eleanor is not specified in Bartrum.  Bartrum can be checked on the internet (others are better are this than I), but Bartrum claims simply to have compiled and organized the medieval Welsh pedigrees, which are notoriously long on names and short on dates.  Without the controversy, this would probably be enough for me to add Elen's mother, but since there is a controversy, it would be important to check Bartrum and which actual manuscripts Bartrum is citing in this case.