What to do, a member posted a Find-a-Grave photo on one of my managed profiles...

Question

I kinda feel like a cad... I know that the contributor was just trying to be helpful and improve the profile... But the photo is clearly taken from Find-a-Grave and I am concerned about the lack of sourcing and posted permission to use a potentially copyrighted photo. I have sent the contributor a Private message saying "Thank you for your generous contribution but I have a little concern about ...etc" But what do I do now? (It's only been about 3 hours ago, so it's not like I'm being ignored or anything.) Do I go ahead and delete the photo with a note of why? Or do I wait until the contributor has had time to respond?

I don't want to hurt any feelings or anything, but I also don't want to leave a profile under my management in possible violation of copyright laws. I have not attached the profile I'm referencing to this message because I see no point in pointing fingers or naming names.

All input welcome!
-P Rich

Comments

If you can identify the origional picture within Findagrave i would thank the donor, scrub the pic and add a link.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=ltf

couldn't copy & paste that url so mign't work from here, but Findagrave does allow links.

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Welcome to WikiTree Kathryn!

Adding images are fairly easy.  First go to the image and right click on it, save as any name to your desktop as a jpeg image.  This is also a good time to save the info from whom granted permission, how they are located for source info on a "Notepad" along with Title, Place and Date.  Then go to the profile or space where you wish to upload to on WikiTree.  Click on the images tab, click on add image.  Find the image on your desktop and double left click.  Fill in the boxes with the info you saved on your notepad. This should be straight forward from here. FAQ link 

I hope this makes it easy for you also!

Just wanted to note how much I appreciate the fine folks at Find A Grave whom post on their profile something similar to "I took these pictures to be shared, feel free to use it on any of your family trees.  Attribution is appreciated."

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I am a member of findagrave.  I've taken over 9,900 photographs and my profile page states I'm more than happy for my photographs to be used.

Most users on the site would probably be happy if they are just contacted.  I certainly am, after all I've done the hard work taking the photographs so it would be nice if they were actually used :)

In fact I've just amended my profile there to confirm WikiTree members are welcome to use the photographs.

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Trish, Thank you very much for your hard work!  I believe attribution is deserved and should be a standard practice for genealogists of all levels to seek permission and graciously thank those whom have helped with the project.

I normally note the image as "Photo posted with gratitude to and permission of Find A Grave contributor Name and ID" or if they are wonderful enough to post permission on their bio and I didn't need to email them "Photo posted with gratitude to and permission of Find A Grave contributor Name and ID as noted at URL."  I also use Find A Grave Memorial Number in my sources section so that others may check and see if any new information has been added there.

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I to am a member of FAG. I dont have any problems sharing any image I post. After all it is a headstone paid for by the family. Not mine to be greedy over. I do not own any copyright on any photo I take. I am going to update my profile on FAG and also add that WikiTree or any other individual are welcome to use the photographs. I don't even care if they dont mention that it was taken by me. Anyone that goes to the FAG site will see who took it anyway. Like I said, It is a photo I took to Share. (Speaking of.. I will be going to St Thomas Cemetery in West Springfield, MA this weekend. I have received a few requests from family members that live out of state.)  Have a great day/night all.

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I too have taken a lot of photos for Find-A-Grave and I am happy to share with anyone who uses them. I truly did it out of the need for preservation of history and to contribute to family histories. If I get a thank you that's great but I have never expected it. I guess to me I feel that sharing in family histories is a collaborative project that will never end. If something I contribute helps someone else then I accomplished my goal.

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Now, I am so confused. Find a grave gave permission to use, the person who took the photo gave permission to use them. Someone mentioned to copy them on your notepad and transfer over, which I have done. Then I read it is against WT policy. This is all confusing. I actually thought this is what we should do gather all information to make the person interesting not just a page with no photo of anything and some sources. So, there are mixed messages here. It seems it is WT not FAG that does not want us to do this am I right in assuming this? When I use anything from FAG I always source the site and the contributor.   confused.

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Nancy,

As far as I know (I have not checked recently) as long as source, permissions, and original photographer credits are included, it is not against WT policy. What is against policy is downloading potentially copywrited images and then uploading as your own with no permissions asked, granted, or notated.

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That is what I thought as well. Thousands of profiles have them on there. But I got singled out and told I was breaking the WT honor code although I had all the sourcing on there. I removed everything. I have always sourced the photos and documents. I also was told that FAG was copyrighted and could not use it. Although, the people from Fag told me differently. So, I do not know what is the right thing and the wrong thing. I see no harm in adding photos of people and tombstones. I am just very confused now and a little hurt. I spend a lot of time searching and sourcing. I do not feel that I broke the honor code and I just feel the more personal we can make a profile the better it is ....

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OK, looking back at your history I was able to find the profile and the comment in question here. It seems that the issue that was being discussed was more the word for word copy and paste of the entire FAG Bio rather than just permitted use of a FAG photo.

I'm sure you could extract the data from that bio and rewrite it in your own words, but to copy the entirety of any website is inappropriate and opens a possible legitimate claim of copyright infringement.

Different subject altogether.

If you have the photographer's permission to use the photo, go ahead and use the photo with proper permissions and credits noted in the sources or acknowledgements sections. But you cannot copy the entire page and use the exacts words and formatting. That's pushing past fair use.

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ok, thanks Rick because I was told not to use the photos as well. So, the photos are ok and we source and move on. Thank you!!

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Photos are ok when permission is asked for and given.  (Be sure to qualify a blanket statement, so a newbie finding your comment (and not reading everything else) doesn't think it is ok to just use someone else's photos.)

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thanks and will do

Answer 1

Can you set the picture as private for the time being until you hear back from the person?  They may have been granted permission to use/repost the photo, and if so they should be able to provide you evidence of this.

Comments

Also, if so, they should have included a statement to that effect in the image's comment field.

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It looked like such a good solution! But alas, here's the answer from the photo edit page...

"You cannot customize the privacy level of a photo. Access to images is dependent on the Privacy Level of the profiles on which they appear and whether you are on the Trusted Lists of those profiles. Here are more details. See the Photos FAQ for more general information about images on WikiTree."

Answer 2

Okay, so problem solved...

I just added the edit note that I was going to remove the copyrighted phot until permission of use could be supplied...and when I reload3d to do so, found it had already been removed. No note of any editing or removal under the changes tab, just gone. Weird, but oh well, it's done and that's all that really matters.
Thanks guys!
-P Rich

Comments

I was going to add, send the uploader a link to wikitree's policy about not uploading photos from find-a-grave without permission, but discovered there's nothing on the PHotos FAQ about copyright. I've started a separate conversation here:

http://www.wikitree.com/g2g/136785/photo-faq-has-nothing-on-it-about-copyright

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In the meantime, here's the link on the Cemeteries project page about not posting photos from find-a-grave without permission:

http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Project:Global_Cemeteries#What_Cemeterists_Do_Not_Do.21

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From a novice: I think you were very nice and I won't mind if someone removes a photo I've added since I would not want to deliberately want to misuse a copyright. Now I think I have to go check because I have probably already made this mistake in my own files. However, if I have taken my own photo of a headstone or marker that is in Findagrave, can I use my own photo?

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You took the photo; you own the photo; you can use it here.

Answer 3

I would ASK first!  After ancestry bought out findagave many of us who tried to revoke the use of our images on the site had our passwords changed and our name removed from our contributions effectively banning us from access to that which we had uploaded freely to the site which was donations only at that time.  Over 7 years I myself uploaded over 13,000 images which ancestry did not remove but I no longer am credited for nor able to access....I was not the only one this happened to, so there IS a possibility this person is uploading their own photos....just passing on my personal experience.

Comments

I had always wondered about that.

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Lisa Franklin, do you still post photos to FAG?  If someone tells me I can't use the photos on FAG that I I took I won't be posting photos on FAG anymore.

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Debra,

No I do not, as I said several of us large contributors has our accounts hijacked by ancestry.  Given the unethical, immoral history of the company we were not surprised by this.  Large numbers of contributors knowing how ancestry takes free info and ultimately sells it for profit, started removing their posts to move them to other locations and were promptly removed from the site so that ancestry could retain the work and names were removed from accounts.  Unethical actions as accounts were free and data said to belong to the submitter, photos are certainly our property.  My account simply has the name "A" on contributions now and my log in shows account no longer exists as does clicking on the 'A' name on a profile submission photo. I now do all my cemetery work on wikitree after much long discussion with cousin Chris Whitten.  And head up the Cemeteries project here.  Feel free to join us as wikitree's expanded capabilities allow us to now only create transcripts of cemeteries with photos, but also to link the transcripts to person profile pages with documented and sourced family information and links to other family members and NO PHOTO LIMITS!  :D
 

 

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Lisa, I understand completely.  I was furious when Ancestry took over all the websites that were free and phased them all out over time.  I transcribed cemeteries, etc. and posted them on genweb, rootsweb, etc. for free also.  I transcribed census records and made them available for free before ancestry came along.  People made booklets of their transcriptions back then and sold them, but I gave the info away.  I was angry to say the least when ancestry took what so many worked to make free and charged money to access it.  I have wondered how long it will take for FAG to no longer be free.  Honestly, I have wondered if wikitree will sell out to them one day too. Send me a link to the wikitree Cemeteries Project.

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https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:United_States_Cemeteries_Project

Answer 4

Although I might own the copyright to the photo I've uploaded to Find-a-Grave there are limits.  If you are making money with the photo I want a cut of the money.  My opinion is that I would like the photo copied here and cited with a reference tag with whatever you know about the source. <ref>Martinez, xxx, photograph taken .... as published by Find a Grave ... </ref>  I want the photo copied here because I'm concerned Find a Grave might make it hard to find the photo in the future.  For now virtual cemetries work, and they survived the last makeover of FindAGrave, but who knows what will happen in the future.

 

Yeah, a message from Find A Grave would be nice too.  But if you can't message me, take it anyway.

 

I've made mistakes in copyright law before, but I feel that as an online publisher WikiTree can't be held responsible.  And it would be silly to hold a profile manager liable for someone else's actions.

Comments

Wow this has been a well commented post. Started in 2015 and still getting comments :). With Find-A-Grave I find the situation complex. I have a find a grave account and had to create some profiles for my ancestors. I'd very much like people to use the photos of my relatives for their research. Unfortunately in my situation I can't give that permission :(, even though I created the profiles because of my location ive requested other researchers in the area to take the photo and upload for me. Since they took the photo copyright would belong to them therefore although I manage I don't actually have copyright to the images

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First, I am not a lawyer, not your lawyer, and I've made mistakes in copyright law before.  It is not clear FindAGrave or the photographer has copyright to their photos.  If the photographer is not a professional then copyright is not automatic and the photo is probably public domain.  And FindAGrave can't copyright just by saying it: they must have an agreement.  Their agreement is quite clear: they only have a license to use photos that are uploaded; that is, they don't pretend to copyright the photos.

Regards the profile text you enter.  You actually have a copyright as soon as you compose it.  However, you can 'waive' that by saying something like "license to copy this profile is granted to all."  Further, one cannot copyright data and I freely copy dates and places from FindAGrave.  Please use citations when you do that.  On a good day I will also put in a research note saying where good bio's are.

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Actually, copyrights belong to the photographer - automatically - the second you click the picture. The photographer is not required to do anything to earn that copyright. The copyright IS AUTOMATIC.

If you also filed your photos with the US copyright office BEFORE the infringement, you are allowed to sue for extra damages. I am not an attorney -- I'm only trying to provide a starting point for your own research.

Proving you own the image might be harder - document your work if copyright is important to you.

If you upload your images to a site, pay attention to the legal agreements. What are you giving up? If you use Creating Commons, pay attention to what you are giving up or gaining.

I recommend using a program, such as PaintShop, to add a small invisible logo to pictures. I also take pictures a little larger than needed, and crop the version to be uploaded. The uncropped version helps prove that you own the picture.

My preference:
I'm not concerned about getting credit for an image, and I have posted items without any type of copyright or credit notice. I like sharing information. However, it's also important to prevent (legal) abusers (such as Getty Images) from swiping public domain images and putting them up for sale.

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I'm unable to find confirmation that one must be a professional photographer to automatically get copyright.    Thank you anonymous.