Approve the use of Y-111 DNA Triangulation For Confirmation Using Three 3rd Cousins

+9 votes
1.3k views

For DNA Confirmation statements, please "Approve" the use of Y-111 DNA Triangulation For Confirmation Using Three 3rd Cousins

Please consider making the distinction between AUTOSOMAL  DNA and Y-DNA.

I agree - Triangulation on WikiTree is not needed for third cousin matches.

I agree - Triangulation on WikiTree  should not include AUTOSOMAL matches which are third cousins or closer."

I REQUEST - Triangulation on WikiTree  COULD BE and SHOULD BE USED for Y-111 matches which are third cousins or closer.

I used Y-111 DNA triangulation for three third cousins. However, I was requested to, and I did remove the triangulation statements from several profiles, because the Wikitree instructions do not allow Y-111 Triangulation for three third cousins.

This is a real situation. There are three third cousins. Each has taken the Y-111 DNA test. Each of the three third cousins are a Family Tree Y-DNA close match with a genetic distance of (0-zero) and (1-one).

Prior to the Y-111 DNA test, none of the three third cousins knew that the other two third cousins existed.  Two of the third cousins only knew who their respective grandmother and grandfather were.

The three Y-111 DNA test confirmed the Y-111 DNA three matches with an overlap of (20.XXX) cM on Chromosome 8.

For this situation, the Y-111 triangulation was used to prove to each of the three third cousins, that they actually had a common great-great grandfather.

It is my opinion, that Y-111 triangulation for three third cousins, with (20.XXX) cM  overlap on Chromosome 8, is valid, highly accurate, and undisputable.

However, the current Wikitree guidelines do not allow this undisputable Y-111 triangulation for three third cousins.

Respectfully, Richard J

in The Tree House by Richard J G2G6 (9.6k points)
YDNA works like MtDNA, Y goes father to son to son to son....Mt goes mother to daughter to daughter to daughter...

Direct lines for both.

I could ascertain that a woman was related to me by MtDNA possibly, but no way could I determine how closely the relationship was from that.  I know for a fact that I have no 3rd cousins bearing the same MtDNA. My great-grandmother had 2 daughters, only one of whom had children.  The closest I would have would be 4th cousins.

By the same token, YDNA would need a paper trail to determine how closely they were related, since it gets trasnmitted very far along the lines.

6 Answers

+9 votes
 
Best answer

I hesitate to jump in here, especially with a response that isn't explicitly an answer to the question, but there seem to be misconceptions that need to be addressed.

To start, I believe it's important that we try, when addressing issues about genetic genealogy, to draw a distinction--or at least to make specific the perspective from which we're speaking--between WikiTree policies and guidelines about employing the use of DNA for genealogy, and the more general and encompassing world of genetic genealogy practice. These are not the same things.

The concept of autosomal DNA triangulation was adapted about 10 years ago from the term's original use where its application--even if it wasn't explicitly called "triangulation" at the time--first began around 2001 or 2002 with uniparental DNA, the Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA. Yes, yDNA and mtDNA triangulation have been a thing for quite a while.

Initial use of the term in relation to yDNA has been attributed to genealogist William Hurst, writing in December 2004. However, I believe the credit goes concurrently to Charles Kerchner who added the article "Triangulation Method for Deducing the Ancestral Haplotype in Y-DNA Surname Projects" to his Genetic Genealogy DNA Testing Dictionary about a month earlier. In that 2004 article, Kerchner defines triangulation this way:

"A method of determining the Ancestral Haplotype from the haplotype data of known direct line descendants. In Genetic Genealogy, the process of determining the Y chromosome DNA Ancestral Haplotype of a male ancestor by looking at the allele values of the DYS markers in the haplotypes of the tested individuals in a surname project who descend from that ancestor by focusing specifically on the direct paternal line descendants of two or more known and different sons of the common male ancestor. Unless there is an exact match at all alleles at all DYS markers in the haplotypes of the two different direct male lines of descendants, at least three haplotypes are required to triangulate and deduce the ancestral allele for each marker."

There has never been any restriction or limitation--and I'm speaking generally, not about WikiTree guidelines--in the number of test takers used in a triangulation, whether for yDNA, mtDNA, or autosomal DNA. In that sense I believe "triangulation" was an unfortunate choice: it's tripartite implication is that you're always done when you get to three; Jim Bartlett, for example, has written that he has on the order of an average of 25 test takers in each of his autosomal triangulation groups. There also has never been any restriction or limitation that sets a demarcation saying you don't use autosomal triangulation for relationships of 3rd cousin or closer. That's WikiTree policy; understandably, they had to draw a line somewhere and 3rd cousins will share a meaningful amount of atDNA 92% of the time. Further, there still, to this day, is no scientifically studied, peer-reviewed research that indicates one way or the other that autosomal triangulation among distant cousins is even a valid and accurate procedure.

Triangulation, in all its permutations, is simply an analysis method, not an end product. At its core it's merely a way to group together DNA test takers who likely share a common ancestor, a vectoring method as a tool to determine a correct course or bearing. Think of bygone ocean navigation using the positions of the stars.

We FTDNA surname project administrators have been doing it since at least 2002. We can't separate members of a yDNA project into groups without analyzing their STR values and arriving at a determination of who align closely, who have few enough collective genetic distances so that a modal haplotype can be defined...or at least hypothesized. Even phylogenetic network mapping for yDNA like Fluxus and SAPP wouldn't exist if we didn't practice triangulation with multiple test takers. Those phylogenetic tools can't be used for only two test takers, and their accuracy increases with both the depth of the testing employed and the number of test takers.

My personal belief is that there are multiple elements in the WikiTree "Confirmed with DNA" guidelines that have been established independently and unilaterally by WikiTree, and that some of those elements are insufficient or even incorrect. But that's where the importance of the distinction comes into play: WikiTree is a one-world family tree; it is not a genetics or DNA testing service. It has to walk a very fine line between purpose of use and accuracy, between ease of application and the very complicated and ever-changing depths of our understanding of genetics. Keep in mind, shocking as it may be to some, that it's been less than a year since we, for the first time, successfully sequenced an entire human genome. Our inexpensive microarray tests can't look at almost 8% of our autosomes (and the tests return results for only about 0.2% of our genomes), and even the Big Y-700 test from FTDNA can attempt to examine only 41% of the Y chromosome.

I believe WikiTree provides us with an excellent platform for incorporating some generalities about DNA into our genealogies: good ways to show genetic relationships among ourselves and our ancestors, and good ways to indicate avenues for additional research. But there are very, very few absolutes in genetics. What we know of the science changes rapidly--just try keeping up with the academic publications about human genetics; that could be a full-time job by itself--and most if not all of its application to genealogy is driven by math, by probabilities and statistical theory using somewhat arcane methods like Bayesian inference, Poisson distribution, the Burrows-Wheeler transform, and hidden Markov models. 

What genetic genealogists should do is learn as much as they can and bring with them every tool in their toolbox, along with a hefty dose of the scientific method and objective skepticism. The three types of tested DNA--autosomal DNA (including the X chromosome), yDNA, and mtDNA--should never be considered as disparate, standalone silos that have no connection. All of it is in our DNA. Fourth cousins will share meaningful autosomal DNA only about 48% of the time. The odds that 4th cousins along the patrilineal line show almost exact yDNA signatures is very nearly 100%. Mitochondrial DNA is quirkier and more unreliable (for instance, see Blaine Bettinger's discovery that his mtDNA didn't match his mother's...and happy birthday, Blaine!), but affirming autosomal matching with closer matrilineal cousins provides an opportunity for more accurate use of mtDNA on the family tree.

Against that backdrop, I understand Richard's request. What he describes is a common and valid yDNA triangulation. That's precisely where you start in building out a "yDNA family tree" like the one for our little Williams subproject. You figure out with whom, when, and where the yDNA data diverges, and that allows you to determine the distinct branches of a patrilineal line. Whether or not a modification or addition to the WikiTree "Confirmed with DNA" guidelines is made--or in fact whether someone chooses to use the "Confirmed with DNA" status--I feel that the confirmation citation format is only that: a citation. Genetic evidence is never as simple as citing a census record or a birth certificate. I think--per the genealogical proof standard--that at least one of the profiles involved, typically the MRCA keystone, should contain detail in the Research Notes section that sufficiently describes all the tests taken, the information evaluated, the evidence analysis process and reconciliation of any data disagreements, and then provides a cogent explanation of the conclusions.

by Edison Williams G2G6 Pilot (446k points)
selected by Lucas Van de Berg

Edison Williams as usual nails it. 

I used YDNA + researched paper trails to tie 10 FTDNA participants to their MRCAs. https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Mitchell-23810.

The process took a decade. My surname is Mitchell, and because of advanced testing we have pinpointed a specific area of Scotland, Ardnamurchan, as our surname origin. We are: R1b (M343) > M269 > L21 > DF13 > L1335 > L1065 > S744 > S764 > BY3148 > FGC18441 

I have also used au DNA from participants within various surnames to isolate various snps that define specific lines. Of course in this process checking to be certain we don't share other possible connections. 

It's a hobby I find fascinating  and a good release of mental energy and gain of knowledge and understanding .

Thank you, Sherrie. And thanks for the best answer star, Lucas.
+11 votes
It is my understanding that Y-DNA does not show on the chromosome matching.  That is just autosomal DNA. And, autosomal is the only DNA where triangulation is used and it is not needed for 3rd cousins or closer.

Y-DNA cannot tell us where the particular match is located in our ancestry; it does say there is a match somewhere on the male line but that could be in one generation or 15 generations.

Here is a website blog by Robert Estes that has a lot of information on how the various DNA tests work: https://dna-explained.com/

Also, if you had a Y-DNA test then it must have been on FTDNA and they have a lot of information. Good luck with figuring this out.
by Virginia Fields G2G Astronaut (1.2m points)

"Y-DNA . . . does say there is a match somewhere on the male line but that could be in one generation or 15 generations." - It's somewhat better than that. The genetic distance between STR test results or the number of non-shared private variants on a Big Y SNP test results will give you a ball park estimate of when the common male ancestor lived, but one must generally rely on genealogical research to determine the specific common male ancestor.

Thank you, Chase, for clarification on my statement. I was really trying to point out that there would not be any kind of overlap on chromosome 8 from a Y-DNA test since Y-DNA does not test on the chromosomes like autosomal does.
This answer is wrong.  In particular the statement " Y-DNA cannot tell us where the particular match is located in our ancestry...."

One needs a computer, but it is entirely possible to calculate the time to most recent common ancestor using Y-DNA results in particular at the 111 levels.

Also, the Y chromosome is a chromosome.  So, by definition, we know the chromosome.  We can also accurately trace the progression of mutations over time.
"it is entirely possible to calculate the time to most recent common ancestor using Y-DNA results in particular at the 111 levels" - Give or take significant margin of error.
Yes; there is a margin of uncertainty.

However, with 3rd cousins, they should show as closely related.  3rd cousins have a common ancestor 4 generations ago.   So, typically an analysis at the 111 STR level would show between 3 to 5 generations.
+10 votes
You would only have a Y-DNA triangulation if you had paper trails leading to the same paternal line ancestor. Without knowing your most recent common ancestor on this line, it is merely a DNA match and not yet a triangulation. Like Virginia pointed out, Y-DNA alone doesn’t tell you how you are related.

Autosomal DNA would be helpful for estimating how closely you are related to these matches.
by Valerie Penner G2G6 Mach 7 (78.7k points)

Thank you for using the phrase "Y-DNA triangulation".  To my knowledge, "Y-DNA triangulation" by three 3rd cousins is not allowed in confirmation statements by Wikitree guidelines.

The paper trail to the most recent common ancestor has been established. It is a material fact that the three 3rd cousins have been determined to be close Y-111 DNA matches. 

It is my opinion, that including this Y-DNA triangulation, and including this material fact, in the confirmation statement, would add additional validity to the confirmation statement, and do no harm.

Perhaps a custom confirmation statement could be written that includes the material fact that the three 3rd cousins have been determined by FTDNA to be close Y-111 DNA matches.

I believe the compliance statement should be succinctly state, "the three 3rd cousins have been determined by FTDNA to be valid close Y-111 DNA matches."

Best! Richard J

Ok, then you have everything you need to make a Y DNA confirmation statement. Use the app to help you: https://apps.wikitree.com/apps/clarke11007/DNAconf.php

And then just customize it a bit. For example: 

* Paternal relationship is confirmed through Y-chromosome DNA test results on {{Family Tree DNA}}.  [[J-2|Richard J]] and two of his third cousins match at a Genetic Distance of 0 on 111 markers, thereby confirming their direct paternal lines back to the most-recent common ancestor of all three who is  [[J-3|John J]], the great-great grandfather of [[J-2|Richard J]] and both of his matches Zz and Aa.

You need to confirm your relationship using traditional genealogy to use the statement, but it isn’t completely necessary to include the word triangulation. By the way, Y-DNA triangulation doesn’t refer to 3 DNA matches, it refers to 2 DNA matches forming the base of the triangle, with the most recent common ancestor forming the top of the triangle: https://isogg.org/wiki/Triangulation#:~:text=Triangulation%20is%20a%20term%20derived,by%20triangulating%20from%20known%20relationships.

You could also create an additional DNA confirmation statement using your autosomal tests if you like, but don’t put anything about chromosome overlap in your Y DNA statement.

Also important to note: the Y-DNA confirmation statement would only support the paternal relationship of your great-grandfather, while an autosomal DNA confirmation statement would support both the paternal and maternal relationships of your great-grandfather. And If you do an autosomal DNA triangulation statement instead of a simple DNA statement, you could only mark the parent relationships as "confident" instead of "confirmed with DNA". So I would just do a "simple DNA match" statement in this case, and customize it to include the extra DNA match.

However you customize your DNA statements, I think the magic words are the "paternal (or maternal) relationship is confirmed..." part, so just make sure you leave that part in. Otherwise an error report is generated when the "confirmed by DNA" button is selected.
You can add a "DNA notes" statement, or whatever you want to call it, and discuss information that doesn't meet the WT criteria.
another wrong statement....

Y-DNA can indeed be used to calculate the time, or number of generations to a common ancestor.
+10 votes
Y-DNA confirmation does not need triangulation.

If two male direct paternal line 3rd cousins are a sufficient Y-DNA match then that is enough to confirm (provide supporting evidence) that their father / son relationships back to their great-great-granfather is accurate.
by Peter Roberts G2G6 Pilot (712k points)
+8 votes
Richard,

Y-DNA111 close matches of third cousins would be hard to dispute even without triangulation. Triangulation is overkill in this case.

Assuming that you can Y-DNA confirm the 2nd ggf using any pair of the three, you could combine them into one confirmation statement by stating the two who you match, instead of just one of them at a time.
by John Kingman G2G6 Mach 6 (63.7k points)
+4 votes
What is this? I am not sure who i would be confirming DNA on. TY
by Deanna Jarvis G2G Crew (310 points)
Deanna, I'll assume you are female, although it doesn't appear that you've selected a sex/gender yet.  Y-DNA is something that only men inherit.  So not relevant for you, but possibly for brothers, your father, etc.

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