Is Walter WILLOUGHBY the same as Walter Willoughby GILLIOT?

Question

Hi,

I've come across a widespread assumption that Walter WILLOUGHBY (1878, Yorkshire) joins the navy as Walter Willoughby GILLIOT and dies in 1960 Sydney, Australia.

As I've detailed in the research notes on the attached profile, I currently doubt this is true.

Walter GILLIOT appears on the ship "Warspite" as a stoker in the 1901 UK Census. His navy records go from 1897 through to 1919 (both RN and RAN) - so how can he appear in Rotherham as a "Pump Man R M Colliery" in the 1911 Census?

I can't find Walter WILLOUGHBY in the 1901 census, nor Walter GILLIOT in the 1911 census. Nor can I find Walter WILLOUGHBY's marriage to Alice M UNKNOWN. Or his death, for that matter.

Puzzled, as usual.

Answer 1

Hi,

Yes, Walter Willoughby, the son of John Willoughby and Mary Gillatt (sometimes spelled Gilliott) later joined the Royal Navy as Walter Willoughby Gilliot (assuming the surname of his mother upon enlistment but always using his birth surname as a middle name after that.

Walter was an older brother of my grandfather Sidney G. Willoughby, so therefore a great uncle of mine.

In 1901 Census he appears with the Royal Navy as Walter W. Gilliot, a stoker on board HMS Warspite, born Masbrough Yorks, age 22, single.

In 1911 Census, he had already completed his 12 years service with Royal Navy and was living with his mother and youngest brother in Rotherham and working as a pumpman at the Rotherham Main colliery.  He is listed as Walter Willoughby, age 33, married to Alice.

Subsequent to that he joined the fledgling Royal Australian Navy in 1913 as a leading stoker and eventually stoker petty officer, serving with the Aussies during World War I. His Royal Navy and Royal Australian Navy records (which I have attached to my family tree) all reflect him as Walter Willoughby Gilliot.  City directories in Sydney Australia where he and Alice settled after World War I, and adopted a son who was named Ronald Arthur Gilliot, all reflect that name as does his Australian death record in 1960 at age 81.

Additionally, my grandmother (wife of Sidney G. Willoughby) told me that Walter had changed his name and she was never wrong.  She also said he served in the "Navy".  It is also true that my grandfather (with the Royal Flying Corps / RAF), another brother with the Royal Field Artillery and another with the Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry all served, as did Walter, during World War I.  So 4 of the 6 brothers served in WWI.  The 2 eldest were "too old" according to my grandmother, to serve.

Incidentally, my father's middle name (Walter of course) and therefore mine since I am a junior were given in honor of Walter Willoughby Gilliot.  This is another fact handed down by my grandmother.

I have seen the discrepancy in birth dates and noticed that the December 15, 1878 date it is identical to a brother in law in the family - one who was married to one of the sisters.  This is probably nothing more than a coincidence though.  I will take a look at the baptism records - perhaps that is the only record that Walter had at time of his enlistment.

Sydney Walter Willoughby Jr.

Comments

Marriages March q. 1903 in Sheppey registration district page 1344.

Walter Willoughby Gilliott to Alice Clara Morley.

This is the marriage record of Walter Willoughby Gilliott to Alice Clara Morley.  I am presuming he was still serving aboard HMS Warspite which might have been ported in Sheppey district or he was working at the Navy base there at the time of marriage.

The 11 February date in the Aussie seaman's records is Walter Willoughby's actual birth day although the year might be 1878 instead of 1879.  I will follow up on that.  So the 15 December date was not correct at the time of enlistment.

Notice that Walter was always very particular in using Willoughby in his records (at least as a middle name).

Walter before joining the Navy was a footballer on the Denaby Main Colliery team that was one of the championship teams in 1896 / 1897.  Denaby Main is where the father John was a colliery engineer and where the family lived in the social club for Denaby Main.  John was the first live-in caretaker of the social club.  My grandfather was born at that residence in 1889.

Alice and Walter had 1 known biological daughter who was born and died in June quarter 1903 in Sheppey.  Her given name was Florence Alice Mary Gilliott.

As far as I or some of the other living family members know, Alice and Walter did not have any other biological children.  Going back to 1911 census, there were 2 very young children living there.  Considering Mary Willoughby, Walter's mother and the head of household was already 60 and I know was already suffering from what we know now as dementia, these children could not have been her adopted or foster children.  The only other female living at that household in 1911 was Alice, Walter's wife.  I am thinking they were fostering the 2 young infants who were residing there.  Later in 1923, in Australia, they did in fact adopt a boy who was given the name Ronald Arthur Gilliot.

---

Thanks Syd, much appreciated!

I will attempt to put all of this into his profile - it may take a while.

Thanks again.

Answer 2

Definitely a conundrum. Some notes. No definitive answer but am veering towards thinking that they are the same man.

The Walter Willoughby of the 1881 census, the Willoughby Gilliott of the RN and Aussie service records were all born in Masbrough.

There is this birth registration. It's in the  right place. (Masbrough is a suburb of Rotherham)

GRO Index:

 WILLOUGHBY, WALTER (mothers maiden name)     GILLOTT  

GRO Reference: 1878 M Quarter in ROTHERHAM Volume 09C Page 654

This man was probably born in Dec1877- March 1878   (can't be Dec 1878)

The service record for Walter Willoughby Gilliott has a birth date 15 Dec 1878.

But service records don't always have the right DOB.

He seems to be between engagements in 1911-1913. So could have gone back to mothers home working at the pit before joining Aussie navy.

 (service record) https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/246870?token=4f36851a3181946e31eee096fc59f55bc57b3c4c9d35258f52a8cc1cbb842dc7

The Aussie seamans register gives a different birth date. (11 Feb 1879) https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/246918?token=316b82a925d6e4da19a786a8fd4b8488ed87e1d0478eb3ba8bdb368f7c1fc9f7

Some possible searches.

Marriages: is there a possible marriage between Walter Willoughby and an Alice?

I  searched free bmd  but only found one between 1900 and 1911. This was in 1903 and was a Walter John in Bath (I didn't try other spellings)

There are 3  Walter Gillots born Yorkshire (none Rotherham). No Gilliots.

GILLOTT, WALTER RHODES  

GRO Reference: 1878 D Quarter in DONCASTER IN THE COUNTIES OF YORK AND NOTTINGHAM Volume 09C Page 696

 GILLOTT, WALTER NUTTON  

GRO Reference: 1879 J Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 09C Page 468

 GILLOTT, WALTER GORDON  

GRO Reference: 1880 D Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 09C Page 452

You could try researching these possibilities through the census records.

Comments

Thanks Helen,

I was leaning the same way - the RN entry date was close to his baptism date, GILLIOT was close to GILLATT/GILLOTT, and their appeared to be a gap in service for the 1911 census - but there was no proof just a lot of coincidence.

Regards, Chris.

Answer 3

Chris,

They are one and the same man.  See my notes.  Walter  is a great uncle of mine.

Thanks,

Syd