DNA confirmed with two people?

Question

Four WikiTree members are listed on the profile for Robert Peyton. Two of them are direct descendants, through sons of Stephen Peyton according to the Relationship Finder. All four are listed on Stephen Peyton's page too. So what (if any) relationships can we mark as "confirmed with DNA" based on this info?

Thanks!

Comments

p.s. looking (again) through "Confirmed with DNA" and "DNA Confirmation", I think what I'm missing is knowing whether or not the four WikiTree members are a match to each other, right? So, hypothetically, if the two direct descendants were a match & their WikiTree connections through Stephen to Robert Peyton were all well-sourced, then all those connections (paternal only, Peyton to Peyton, I think) could be marked as "confirmed with DNA" ... yes? Could any of the non-Peytons (wives) be marked as confirmed, or would that require the wife's DNA?

Answer 1

Yes, you would need to know if the DNA tested people match. And what type of test they matched on. YDNA cannot confirm the DNA any of the spouses.

As I understand it, if two people have a matching DNA their documented lines back to their most recent common ancestor would be considered DNA confirmed.

Comments

So Peyton-888 and Peyton-885 would have their most recent common ancestor as Peyton-887

A match between either of the previous people and Peyton-717 would in theory confirm both lines back to Peyton-947

A match between Adams-16553 and the first two would also confirm back to Peyton-957, but a match to the latter will only confirm back to Peyton-16. Perhaps I am a cynic but I think Adam-16553 is not likely going to match any of them - without checking the evidence my guess is that where his ancestor John Quincy Adams (not the president... another one) connects to the Peyton line (at Peyton-742) might be a concern.

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Hi, fascinating discussion here.  Thank you Liz for messaging me to check it out.

I am Adams-16553.  I have no issue sharing that info.

My relationship to any Peyton is not confirmed, but one I am trying to prove/disprove.  Only thing we know for sure is the father of John Quincy Adams was kept a secret from anyone still around to discuss it. What I am trying to accomplish by listing Robinson Peyton as his father is to fish out others who share the line to see if one day we can make a connection and compare test results.  Robinson is suggested as the father because he lived next door John's family for years and it is a family rumor he could be the father.  Reading this thread has me less confident we can ever determine the father since it iso far back and not documented.  

The likelihood exists as we share the same haplogroup.  Peyton decendants show in my Ancestry DNA matches as well as FTDNA.  Other replies to this thread point out that is not enough.  Only other thing I can throw in is my full YDNA haplogroup according to FTDNA is I-M253.

I welcome any further guidance in my search for this unknown relative.

Answer 2

I have a problem with using the term ‘Confirmation’ because yDNA and mtDNA do not actually confirm an individual parent child relationship.  The DNA tests only indicate the RELATIONSHIP PATH between 2 DNA testers is consistent or inconsistent with their DNA results.

You cannot say you have PROVED a specific parent/child relationship is absolutely true using these 2 tests. There could be a case of another male relative (using yDNA), at any point in the chain, who was the actual biological parent of a particular if the results are consistent.  If the DNA tests are inconsistent, you can say at least one of the birth parents identified, in the relationship path, on one of those profiles is incorrect, but you cannot say which profile has the error, unless you can narrow it down with additional DNA testers, or new documentation.

I would mark the parent as confirmed by DNA on everyone in the relationship chains in which the DNA can be shown to be “consistent”.

Comments

Hello Ken,

We are not talking about proof. The Y-STR match between paternal line cousins confirms what we know about that direct paternal line ancestry.

On another issue about the Y-STR results being public... I believe it is pointless to say Confirmed with DNA if the results are private and so no one else has the ability to see for them self if the results support the conclusion, as you can with genealogical citations.

Answer 3

To use Confirmed with DNA for Y chromosome results then it is best if the Y-DNA haplotype (aka Y-STRs) are in a public database such as YSearch or a public table on the Web such as a surname DNA project page. Each tester's DNA Tests page should include the tester's YSearch ID or the url for where the haplotype may be viewed.  It should be possible to allow for independent verification that there is sufficient haplotype matching between distant direct paternal line cousins in order for each farther/son relationship (back to their most recent direct paternal line ancestor) to be Confirmed with DNA.

 

Sufficient haplotype matching is matching on about 90% or more of the tester's Y-DNA markers.

Comments

http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/payton/results has results... I haven't looked to see if the WikiTree members showing on the Peyton profiles can be identified with a specific entry. But is it reasonable to expect living people to publicly identify their DNA? It seems most of the DNA sites are set up to help hide that (but then, adding pedigrees to those sites makes it moot). I guess what I mean - wouldn't making independent verification possible make the WikiTree member's specific DNA pubilic? Is that something people are comfortable with?

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ah - David's posted some info on [[Peyton-885|William Peyton]]'s page:

A son of William Clifford Payton submitted DNA for Y-chromosome testing, finding the haplotype I1. This haplotype was is also found in two other descendants of Major Robert Peyton. The same haplotype is found in descendants of Jacob H. Payton (Payton-138).

The Peyton project administators designate this line as the "A" line, and refer to the book, "Peytons of Virginia II". Within this book, Major Robert Peyton had the right to the designation as a Baronet of Isleham. The line is also referred to as, "the Peytons of Peyton Hall, Suffolk".

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And on Peyton-888, David posted:

A grandson of Edward Smith Peyton submitted DNA for Y-chromosome analysis. The names of the sample donor and his father are not published.

The haplotype, I1, is also found in another descendant of Major Robert Peyton (Peyton-434), and in two descendants of Jacob H. Payton (Payton-138).

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Hi Liz, Re: "wouldn't making independent verification possible make the WikiTree member's specific DNA pubilic? Is that something people are comfortable with?"

I am not comfortable with this with my own DNA test and certainly not with other people's DNA tests.  if someone wants to post this information themselves, about their own test, that is fine.

On the DNA projects that I administer, including the GFR & WikiTree DNA Project, I post information about the test participant's Most Distant Ancestors.  I include links to the Ancestor's WikiTree ID, DNA line and all descendants. These links do not reveal the test participant's identity unless they have included this info on their own profile and it propogated down to the ancestor profile. There are sometimes links from the kit number to the actual test participant's information, as on my own test #B022972.  I have explict permission from those individuals to connect the kit number to their WikiTree ID.  On the chart that displays the kit numbers and the actual test markers, there are no links to WikiTree and the names listed are from the Most Distant Ancestor information on each FTDNA account page.

I believe that it is imperative that we protect the names of our DNA test participants.  That is what the kit numbering system is for; it allows test participants to be as anonymous as they wish, and the decision to publish their name is their business and in their control. The auDNA/FamillyFinder tests are more difficult to keep anonymous because the common auDNA ancestors are not a straight line connection like yDNA which is only the paternal line of forefathers, but this discussion seems to be about yDNA tests.  Just know that I take the privacy issue very seriously for all the projects that I administer.  

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Thanks so much Kitty! I thought privacy might be an issue. I've posted a link to this discussion for the managers of the profiles showing as DNA tested on the page for Robert Peyton (Peyton-434) & I'll leave it with them how to proceed. I'm related to the Peytons (but not to this branch, I don't think)

I'll continue working on improving Peyton profiles & hopefully we'll get a convergence of solid Peyton profiles with tested Peyton descendants at some point & can then click the "confirmed with DNA" button between the generations :D

Cheers,
Liz

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Happy Independence Day, Liz!

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Liz,

Since 2009, when 23andme released Relative Finder, the most emotionally charged issue that gets reignited on a regular basis is the issue of privacy and making information public.  

From my observations and experience, generally speaking, the culture and attitudes at FTDNA is completely different than AncestryDNA and 23andme.  At FTDNA, you have to agree to make information available to your matches, but you don't agree to make this information available to the general public. This is not a requirement on AncestryDNA or 23andme.

My most recent contacts at AncestryDNA told me they submitted their DNA after seeing an ad that said AncestryDNA will tell you if the family stories of having a Native American Blood is true(Ancestry).  They had no idea about the genealogical features.  2 out of the 3 had no problems uploading their RAW DNA to www.gedmatch.com , but they are in their 70's and can't figure out how to do it.

23andme is more extreme, there has always been significant emotional exchanges regarding this subject on their forum. Some exchanges were so bad the participants suspended and posts removed. 23andme decided not to make segment information available as part of DNA relatives because of a vox article that told how the DNA service revealed a family secret that "RESULTED IN TUMULTUOUS TIMES THAT HAVE TORN MY[HIS] NUCLEAR FAMILY APART"".Of course, similar stories then began to be published. http://www.vox.com/2014/9/9/5975653/with-genetic-testing-i-gave-my-parents-the-gift-of-divorce-23andme

About a year ago, I convinced a 2nd cousin that I have never met to take a DNA test, for the sole purpose of my using it for triangulation, He turned out not be related. This meant that someone close to him MIGHT have lied and this troubled him. He asked that I not reveal this information and I will not.

Later, I discovered the non-paternal event occurred on my side but he indicated that he does not want to go through this again, so asked me, for now, to keep his name out of anything related to DNA testing.

I have been able to narrow down, using 3 DNA kits, including his, the identity of the person who should have been listed on my grandfather's  birth certificate. It should not be a requirement to directly identify the individual test takers or discard evidence just because NON-RELATIVES don't have access to the results. 

I explained it to my family existing and newly discovered this way, A DNA Cousin who should have been a Descendent of a common great-grandfather, according to DNA testing, is not related , and he would prefer not to have his name revealed.

3 first cousins of my father, who we never knew about, are DNA Relatives and are in their 70's. They now know that a grandparent withheld the fact he or she fathered another child, while they were married to someone else.  

Another yDNA match narrows down the identity if the grandparent who fathers a child and kept it a secret but also does not want his name revealed publicly.

Any family member can submit their own DNA tests to verify most of what has been presented but non-family members can not.

I  have absolutely no documentation to refute the certified birth certificate of my grandfather and don't have permission to reveal the names of the DNA testers to prove its is wrong, at least to anyone outside the family.

I marked the biological father on my grandfather's profile as DNA Confirmed. We should reveal as much information as we can but not more than we feel comfortable with.