Whom did Jan Pieterse Van Orden/Mabie marry?

Question

I am looking at Van-Orden-24 and Mabie-15, apparently the same person (I will request a merge soon).  One secondary source states that he married an unknown wife, and then Elizabeth Rees von Lipstradt (Lipstradt-1).  Another has him married to Anna Borsboom (Borsboom-1).  I spent some serious time researching, and I am still not sure if there was one or two Pieter Casperszen Van Naerden/Mabie (from Mabille).  The sources are

(1) The Van Norden Family, 300 years in America, 1623-1923 (pub 1923) Van Norden, Theodore Langdon South Salem, New York

and 

(2)Swarts, Tietsoorts, and Whittakers : our Dutch and English ancestors in the colony of New Netherland/New York; Teunis Cornelisz van Vechten Swart (est. 1622-c. 1680), Abraham Willemsz van Amsterdam [Tietsoort] (1628-1649), by Willem Abrahamsz Tiet.    

This was all in an effort to determine whether Andries Van Norden was truly Jan Pieterszen van Naerden's son.  I don't see any primary sources that indicate whose son he is.  

Has anyone looked at any of this lineage? It looks like he married twice, however both women "overlap" during their childbearing years, depending on the source.  The LDS site doesn't let me look at the juicier books.  And as usual, Ancestry.com is a sort of crap shoot.

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks,

Alycia in CT

Comments

I thought these might be New Netherland settlers, and from looking up the profiles I confirm that at least one of the profiles is. That's Jan Pieterse Mabie (1654-1725), project-protected by New Netherland Settlers.

Most of the related profiles, such as https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Van_Orden-24 and https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Lipstradt-1 and https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Van_Orden-23 are unsourced and have no dates or locations. The current profile manager adopted them after finding them in that condition. It looks like Carrie Quackenbush (Leader of New Netherland Settlers) has started researching your proposed merges for some of those profiles.  If you have insights as to who these people were, it would be helpful to document your information on the profiles (a message on the profile would work fine) to save others from the effort of repeating research you have done.

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Thank you Ellen.  I'll dig up the other, better, corrected sourcing I found, and let Carrie know.

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Apparently this was all sorted in a recent NYGBR

• Jan is not a son of Pieter Casparszen van Naerden and Aechtje Jans as had been previously claimed by some published genalogies of the Mabie family. See Stephen W. Mabie, "Mabie Family Update," NYGBR 133 (2002):44-46, for the correct identity of Pieter Casparszen's son, Jan.⁴
• The patronymic "Pietersz" which has been assigned to Jan in some published accounts, is in error. It was based upon the belief that Jan Van Naerden was a son of Pieter Casparszen Mabie, which he is not.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~brouwergenealogydata/p675.htm#i103527

I started working on it yesterday but then ended up merging another family. I'm back to it!

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Ok, it is no wonder the conflation happened because I can find no actual record of Jan, only hints of him through his wife and children.

He was apparently buried in 1725 but that information is located in Burials, Lutheran Church, New York City" in New York Genealogical & Biographical Record, Apr 1974, p. 82 and I'm not subscribed at the moment. He does not appear with his wife at the bapitsms of his grandchildren, even when they take place in the Lutheran church.

With so little proof of him, there must be something we're missing. Perhaps he went by another name?

So this might seem crazy but I've given him the LNAB of unknown, because we don't know! Also because there were merges that needed to take place. :>

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I have online access to NYGBR, so I looked up that burial record, but it's not there. I looked at all of the burials from 1714 to 1738 (there weren't very many burials, and 1725 is during one of the multi-year gaps in the record).

On page 82, I did find two related burials:

1735

15 Xbr   Lisabeth Van Orden in her 82nd year, buried in our churchyard at
Hakkinsack.

1736

[no date] At Hackingsack in my absence, Elsje, Jan v Orden's daughter,
died and was buried in our [churchyard].

I guess Xbr must be December (it being the tenth month in the old calendar, and "Dece" referring to the number 10 in Latin).

These Lutheran burial records are full of interesting anecdotes. A real hoot to read!

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Thanks for looking that up. Oh man, I should remember to read that in the future! Elsje is supposed to be a grandchild, son of Jan/John Jr. Lisabeth is clearly Lysbeth Rees as she was baptized in 1654.

Say, the below entry appears in Hudson-Mohawk and says that the ancestor of the van Orden family was William van Orden who married Temperance Loveridge. http://www.schenectadyhistory.org/families/hmgfm/vanorden-1.html But that William van Orden is believed to have been a son of Jan and Lysbeth. Since William's marriage record states that he was born in Hackensack (same as Adam and Albert), maybe the first part is actually about Jan?

"The ancestor of the Van Ordens of New Baltimore, Greene county, New York, is William Van Orden, who came from Holland in the ship "Arms of Norway" about 1670. He settled at Katts Kill, where in 1718, after his marriage, he took possession in right of his wife of lot No. 4, containing about fifteen hundred acres. Here he built a house that was his home until death and stood for over a century and a half before being torn down. It was built partly of logs and partly of stone quarried from the Kalkberg. It was built against the hill, so that it was two stories high on the east side and one story on the west. In front was the Hudson, and the jealously guarded "canon place" at which the boats were tied. William was one of the first elders of the Dutch Reformed church at old Catskill, where he was well known and highly respected. He died in 1765, and was buried on the brow of the hill northwest from his house. The stone that marked his grave bears the inscription "W. V. O. 1765." The inventory of his property shows him to have been a wealthy man for his day. He married, in 1716, Temperance, daughter of William Loveridge (the patentee of what is known as the "Loveridge Patent"), and his wife, Margrietje Dumond."

I'm gonna look through the Hackinsack church book to see if there might be more hints to Jan. Edit: He's not in there argh. Jan is like a black hole.

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Curiouser and curiouser.  Darn!  

 

So are we refuting this:  https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE96632&from=fhd "The Van Norden family:  300 years in America" (pages 14-17)?  Also, are there subscriptions that I can get to help me in my search?  I'm happy to pore over lists and first records.

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That book looks to be very thorough -- and it cites its sources, so it's still valuable as a source. It appears that more recent research has found new information that invalidates some of the author's assumptions and inferences about the early generations in America. (And I see that the author was perplexed about why the name Mabie was adopted by one branch of the family -- that suggests that he would have been happy to see new evidence that changed some of his inferences.)

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I looked up the 2002 NYGBR article that Carrie referred to, and posted my "notes" on the article in a new free-space page called Notes on 'Mabie Family Update.'  (By publishing my notes on the article, I am avoiding the copyright problems that would occur if I were to share the article or its verbatim text.)

What I get from this article is that there were two completely different men: 

1. Jan Mabie who married Annetje Borsboom of Schenectady was the son of Pieter Casparszen van Naerden and Aechtje Jans van Norden. He is supposed to have been baptized in the Reformed Dutch Church of New York in 1654; I haven't looked for the record of his baptism. He is supposed to have died in 1725, but in Schenectady -- not New York City or Hackensack. He was buried in the graveyard of the First Reformed Church of Schenectady, but his grave was moved to Vale Cemetery in 1879.
2. Jan Van Orden who married Elizabeth Rees (i.e., the Lisabeth Van Orden who was buried in December 1735) and lived in Hackensack. The "Mabie Family Update" article doesn't have any other details on this man's life.

PS - The last name of the second man is implicitly "Van Orden" in the record of his wife's burial. If that's the only record of his last name, it's a basis for making his LNAB "Van Orden." (I don't particularly endorse the idea of calling him "Unknown." WikiTree search can't find people with LNAB=Unknown. If you search WikiTree on the Current Last Name of a person who has LNAB of Unknown, the Unknown person will not appear in the search results.)

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That's a technical issue, searches ignoring unknowns. That can always change.

There's such a small chance that a New Netherland profile would be found through a search anyway.

Except for Lysbeth, we're only seeing the family after surnames have been imposed.

Answer 1

ok, I show a baptism 12 dec 1731, of David. according to this, wife was Rachel van schyven, witness was Rachel van orden. New Jersey, reformed dutch. if this is him also son steven born 2 may 1735, also twins born 9 apr 1738, Lea and Rachel.