Please exercise caution when using FAG

Question

This was added as a source to the profile of Edward Unton died 1589. [https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSsr=41&GScid=2155075&GRid=154760185&]. No photograph apart from the church itself nor mention of any memorial. No sources except that I noted it said somewhere one could look him up on Ancestry. Research indicates that he died in Plymouth as noted in the profile. I still have no idea where he was buried. Needless to say it generated an error. As an aside Faringdon was in Berkshire until 1974 when the government moved it into Oxfordshire. Can I keep it in Berkshire? Upside is my husband suggested we make an expedition next week to see for ourselves what is there. Please be cautious. NB There's still work to be done on the profile.

Answer 1

Find a grave is being quoted as a source a lot, when in fact many of the profiles on there do not have a gravestone to refer to even, it appears to have become a storage place for people's family trees, much like ancestry, so personally do not consider it a valid source without a gravestone.  And the older a profile is, unless they were of the high nobility, there is no gravestone.

Comments

Danielle, I wish I give your reply 5 stars.  I don't know much about European gravesites, but I have seen NUMEROUS  FAG links to UNKNOWN burials. One family has memorial markers but grave location is unknown. But by golly some one has seen that marker and states its gospel. (I wonder why I still have hair left.) 

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thank you, I have seen many that show the cemetery gate as if that was evidence.  Modern day gate too.  :D

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My local cemetery in New Zealand was added by someone in the US. There's a photo of the cemetery sign and the records appear to have been taken off the local council's website. The disturbing aspect is that incorrect family connections have been assumed from the names of the people interred. The placement of the gravestone plus its wording makes it clear there is no connection.

Answer 2

I believe the Wikitree standard for place names is that the place should have the name it did at the time the person was alive.  So I would keep it in Berkshire but maybe put a note somewhere on the profile or something.

Comments

My view and it can be in the category. However anyone under 40 who was born in Faringdon was born in Oxfordshire. Presumably we don't want two categories for Faringdon.

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I don't see the problem. Faringdon is currently categorised in both counties with an explanation.

Answer 3

Thank you! a healthy recommendation.

May I add this one - I'm trying to disconnect Charles de Longueval from his parents who are obviously incorrect (Charles de Longueval's parents are not known, and, as frequently happens in this case, someone went for the most aggrandizing genealogy possible and it was wildly propagated). But the profile is linked to a find a grave momument which states the connexion as fact, without source or proof. 

(Philippe de Longueval and Françoise d'Estrées's son Charles died in 1595; the Charles de Longueval profiled here was alive in 1609. And there are other inconsistencies).

Comments

Just a thought - You might consider adding that profile to an appropriate project and requesting PPP status?  To avoid the consistent bad editing?

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Sure, thanks for pointing that out. It will need fixing first though. It might not be easy to get the parents to be detached in the first place. But if it's done, I'll see if it can get PPP.

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I believe I have seen people create profiles with Unknown Unknown in first name and last name, and add the new Unknown Unknown profile in as parents in order to avoid the problem you are talking about, so you might try that.

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hm maybe. My problem right now is to detach the parents (technically easy) without starting a war with the profile manager and/or descendants (less easy, I'm not a good diplomat and also consider that this Charles de Longueval's daughter Antoinette is the ancestor of many, many people with Quebecois ancestry). Not sure which project he'd belong to but I believe if there is a concensus to detach him, either the Quebecois or the Euro Aristo projects would agree to protect him.

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Ah.... now I see the difficulty.   Maybe consider working it the other way - having a project adopt him *first* and then let the project team help have the *cough* discussion with the profile manager?  :)  When in doubt recruit help?

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Well, I've put the information in comments on the profile, so now we wait and see what happens. Sometimes, it's not a problem.

But you are right, when such things are fixed you need to make sure the connections are not put back again.

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Crispin, unknown unknown should not be created unless there is a known sibling relationship which necessitates at least one parent.  It just takes up space and is rather false to my mind, we know the people had parents, but don't need to create a fiction for them.

Isabelle, wouldn't fall within purview of Quebecois project, Euro Aristo more likely.

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He sure could go in French Roots if a project is started. Some of us are playing with the idea.

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This is not proven either way, the Charles de Longueval in the notarial act referenced in 1609 could have been a derogated or outright stripped son of the same name (in the later record listing Louise de Joyeuse "veuve de Charles de Longueval", he is just listed as "ecuyer", not like "sieur des Ormes" as the person named Charles de Longueval is in the preceding act ten years earlier).  There are also several circumstances which show a connection between Antoinette de Longueval and the Longueval branch of Haraucourt (the domaines of the mother Louise de Joyeuse' family and the Longueval/ d'Estrees  family are less than 2 miles apart = Montgobert/ Coeuvres, and numerous names are the same between the two families - Antoine/ Antoinette, Anne/ Anne, etc...).  There was apparently a Quebec genealogist around 1900 who in the Paris Archives found an Antoinette de Longueval in ancient records with the Haraucourt branch of this noble house, so even though I appreciate Roland-Yves Gagne and his teams' hard work, I think they and all of you are too quick to dismiss all of this until concrete records are found to prove what actually happened with Antoinette's father.  As of now, there is circumstantial evidence such as referred to above, to show that something is missing in Antoinette's families story (no documentation between 1585-1605 found thus far for any of them).

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Also you have to be careful when reading the Grand Chroniques and Pere Anselme ancient sources concerning the maison de Longueval or any other catalogued noble houses as they were very strict by todays standards, if a son of high nobility had a wife and children but did not themselves stay in high nobility and/or good standing, even if they were killed in battle, then the relations were omitted and the family never mentioned.

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Hi Jamie, you might want to start another G2G thread with this matter, as this one wasn't specific to that topic.  And there now is a French roots project, Isabelle being the leader.

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It is specific in that it shows circumstantial evidence to rebut the proposed answer in question, not even being all of the proven factual information to do so.  I don't have a profile on this website as starting one some time ago caused me problems, but I'll try to start this on a thread anyway.

Answer 4

All Saints' churchyard Faringdon appears only to have monuments post 1620.

Comments

Seems about right.

Answer 5

The Berkshire Vic County History lists some of the Unton memorials  and tombs in the church at Farringdon, including one to his father Sir Edward Unton but couldn't see one for this Edward. (so a visit might be useful if tracing the family back)

'Parishes: Great Faringdon', in A History of the County of Berkshire: Volume 4, ed. William Page and P H Ditchfield (London, 1924), pp. 489-499. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/berks/vol4/pp489-499 [accessed 20 July 2017].

In it's list of references for this page about the parish it lists "The Unton Inventories, Relating to Wadley and Faringdon, Co. Berks., in the Years 1596 and 1620 " which is digitised here

 The book also describes some of the memorials in detail and includes  transcripts of wills and inventories from the family. These should be useful to you if you are going to research the family a.s a whole

Unfortunately it rather glosses over the death of 'your' Edward and disagrees with the History of Parliament suggesting that he ''was slaine  in the Portugal Voyage"

Agree with others, use  the historic county of Berkshire