DNA results: Irish/Scottish/Welsh- Only 2 known ancestors (1600s) How to trace roots?

+4 votes
422 views
Hi all

I know this may perhaps be an impossible question to answer, but thank you for trying!

I am South African and have done a FTDNA test.  My results show a 84% British Isles Ethnicity percentage.   On my Heritage it is 62% Irish/Scottish/Welsh.

I used various GEDmatch ethnicity calculators and the vast majority shows a 50% Irish ethnicity result (often mixed with Orcadian/Scottish).

Most of my ancestors are Dutch, German and French. The only known ancestors I have from the British Isles, are William Tarling (England) and John Crawford(Scotland), both born around the 1600s.  I have no known Irish ancestors.

One branch in my tree isn't yet complete, but according to reliable sources, that side of the family was also of Dutch/German descent.

A great deal of my FTDNA-matches are Irish and Scottish or of Irish/Scottish descent with no connections to South Africa (I have emailed most).  Most show as 4th-5th cousins.  

Is it possible that I may have inherited such a large amount of William and John's DNA or is it likely that I have more recent ancestors from the British Isles?

I am suspecting that there may possibly have been an adoption or illegitimate child somewhere along one (or more) of my lines.

It seems like an impossible task to find common last names among my matches.   I have a few matches with people who have connections with the last name "Leigh".

Is there any way I can attempt to determine with which family I fit in?   Does anyone perhaps have any tips on what I should do?
WikiTree profile: An-Mari Basson
in Genealogy Help by An-Mari Basson G2G2 (2.5k points)
The most likely explanation for having a significant number of Irish DNA matches with no known recent Irish ancestry is that one of your ancestors is not who you think they are; this is generally referrred to as an "NPE" (which stands for either "non-paternity event" or "not the parent expected", depending on your preference).

Unfortunately at the distance of 5 to 7 generations it can be very difficult to identify precisely where this occurred, especially so with Irish ancestry (Irish genealogy in the 19th century is very difficult and frequently there are not extant records); as an example, I have an Irish 3rd great-grandfather, born most likely in County Galway circa 1829, who emigrated to America before 1850 and settled in Virginia. I have numerous DNA matches to people in Ireland, New England, and Canada that have to be on this particular line (they match both each other and known descendants of this 3rd great-grandfather); all of them have the surnames "Joyce" and "King" in their trees (neither of these is my ancestor's surname, and I can find no record of his birth in Ireland or of his immigration to the USA).

"Is it possible that I may have inherited such a large amount of William and John's DNA". No, it is impossible. In fact you have inherited none of their auDNA as only half of parental auDNA is passed down to a descendant. 

A Y DNA test could provide a hint by showing matches with a common surnames and genetic distances suggesting a paternal MRCA. However, if that evidence checks out with your tree, you can then narrow down to maternal line.  

It could also be the case that auDNA may be all you need IF you (and/or your mother) have sufficient matches to triangulate your missing MRCA. 

Thank you

I thought as much (from what I could still remember from high school genetics).

Just another quick question: If I get one of my brothers to do a yDNA test, won't it just look at their direct paternal line? The same wit mtDNA.  Will it look at all my female ancestors or juat my mother'a direct maternal line?
Thanks!  Seems like we're in the same boat.  If I could just fins out exactly where in my line the NPE occurred it would already make things easier.

YDNA is passed down from direct paternal line and mtDNA is passed down the direct maternal line. I'd get your bro and mother tested for auDNA first to see if those matches will shed some light on the situation. 

"It seems like an impossible task to find common last names among my matches.   I have a few matches with people who have connections with the last name "Leigh"."

Yes it does. But today, this is largely what needs to be done - manually! And what's worse is that you have to research their ancestors if they lack the sufficient amount for your matching needs.  Finding MRCA candidates through a surname frequency matching method could technically be automated, but I suspect that the database search queries involved would put too much load on the system. Maybe someday...

I have an NPE in my line - my direct 2rd or possibly 3th ggf is a descendant of Downing/Dowling (Irish) according to both YDNA STR matching and auDNA matching. My NPE will be narrowed down in a couple of weeks, after test results from a helpful 4th cousin will be available.

I am no expert in DNA questions, but I did notice that you have some connections with the last name "Leigh."  My mother's maiden name was Lay.  In research done by a cousin, our Lay ancestors came from England.  When we had a Lay Reunion, a cousin showed up whose last name was Leigh and we were related.  We think the name Leigh was changed to Lay when our ancestors arrived in America.

3 Answers

+5 votes
Has anyone else in your immediate family taken a DNA test? Sometimes that helps to answer some ancestry questions. I had some trace DNA from a part of the world that I had no record of anyone being from and it showed in my dad's DNA.

I also had my mom take a DNA test to see if we could confirm or deny a family rumor. We have it in records but I wanted to see if there was any DNA proof. So far, there is no confirmation. So, I would suggest getting someone close to you relation wise to take a DNA test so that you can compare results.
by Jesi Hawthorne G2G2 (2.3k points)
Thank you.

I am planning to get my mum to take a test as well.

Hopefully it'll help.
+6 votes
You shouldn't over-interpret ethnicity tests.  They're not a safe basis for genealogical conclusions.  The categories aren't well-defined.  They're biased by how Americans self-identify and labeled by what Americans want to hear.

"British Isles" is a good one, because most Americans will have an obscure great-grandparent who they think might have been Irish or Scottish.  So the test confirms what they thought, and then this confirms the accuracy of the test, doesn't it.

"Irish/Scottish/Welsh" is nonsense, because Celts have always drifted into England, especially London.  There was never a mechanism for passing genes around the Celtic fringe while keeping them out of England.  So "Irish/Scottish/Welsh" is just "British Isles" with a more American-market-friendly label.

And it hasn't been established that they can actually distinguish British Isles from western European.  Nor can it be, because ethnicity isn't that well-defined.  Nobody who ever crossed a border took pure blood with them.

In fact Ancestry have been saying that the British are only 30% British, or something like that.  This has no real meaning.  It only tells you about how they've chosen to configure the testing and reporting system.
by Living Horace G2G6 Pilot (636k points)

I'll second that, RJ. I wrote a short (yes, really) piece last year about research by Byrne, Martiniano, et al. that is titled "Insular Celtic Population Structure and Genomic Footprints of Migration." Two quick and very generalized take-aways from that paper: 1) they found Irish genetic proximity in all Scottish samples which, quoting the study, "likely reflects older strata of communication across the narrowest inter-island crossing"; 2) the study concludes that the genetic influence of the Norse-Vikings is far greater than previously thought. "Of all the European populations considered, ancestral influence in Irish genomes was best represented by modern Scandinavians and northern Europeans."

I've been doing this a...few years, and never once have I ever considered advising someone to exchange lederhosen for a kilt based on a genotyped microarray DNA test.  smiley

Funny thing, I always thought I was more Arab than what my MyHeritage results said. I still embrace that part of my heritage.
+6 votes
They market these DNA tests as a sort of "instant genealogy", in terms of determining the ethnic mix of your ancestors, but that aspect of the results has little genealogical value. All it's really telling you for sure is that you're of European origin - something you plainly see in the mirror.

People really WANT to believe the ethnicity is accurate, and it's a revealing exercise in psychology, but not genealogy. You'll see people with completely goofball ethnic mixes (although generally from the right continent), explain how it's really OK - usually involving discussions of Roman or Norse invasions - really trying to rationalize something that's really just junk. It's DNA, it comes from a lab … so it HAS to be right, doesn't it? Well, no it just doesn't.

In contrast, your DNA matches are very real, and genealogically useful. There are some "curve balls" it can throw you, but THAT'S the stuff to pay attention to.

It sounds like you may not have very many useful matches, which is a shame, but perhaps not very surprising. This is a bigger deal in the US (apparently people in France are already well aware that they're French, so it's like that).

Not to sound like an AncestryDNA salesman, but they have something like half the tests ever done in the world, so if you really want more matches testing there would be the way to go. Beyond that, get your results up on GEDmatch.com (a free site that allows people using different testing companies to compare results).

Matches down at around the 60cM and below level can be anything from a 2nd cousin, once removed to an 8th cousin, so it's probably an uphill battle to try to do too much with those, at the beginning.

It doesn't sound like you have the slightest reason to suspect any adoptions, or illegitimate births, so far, based on what you're saying.

By way of example, my own AncestryDNA result said I was 78% "Great Britain", even though my mother was 0%. My mix didn't even match those of my two brothers. YET, I can tell with certainty that they are both full brothers, from the cM of my matches to them, and that my mother was my biological mother from the large number of matches I have on her side, including 3 first cousins (who also have appropriate levels of cM). My tree is almost entirely DNA confirmed back to my gt-gt grandparents, and on my mother's side that means "back to the Old Country". So there's no doubt at all - the 78% was just nonsense.

Further, my 90% Great Britain and Ireland (78%+12%) has since been revised to 47% "Ireland and Scotland" + 43% "England, Wales & Northwestern Europe". My mother was half Irish, and half from German-speaking places, so that can be interpreted to be somewhat reasonable. Still, note that since the two estimate are DIFFERENT, at least one was obviously WRONG.
by Living Stanley G2G6 Mach 9 (91.9k points)

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