re: Puritan Great Migration and the ship Elizabeth

Question

In reviewing the list of ships on the Puritan Great Migration project page I note there are three entries for sailings of the ship Elizabeth -- Apr, 1634 under Wm Andrewes; Apr, 1635 under Wm Stagg and May, 1635 captain not noted. I am intrigued because I think a crossing at that time took about 60 days.  {The arrival dates of these three sailings are not noted but the Planter departed 2 Apr, 1635 and arrived 7 Jun 1635, just for reference, similarly the Mayflower.  Is there something about ship naming in the 17th century I don't understand?  I learned that one of the five ship fleet sailing in 1585 for Roanoke was Elizabeth, I had presumed that the same ship that sailed in 1635 to Boston.

Comments

Looking at this now.

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Notes on the first two ships follow. 

www.winthropsociety.com is the source provided for the first two ships. 

• 1st According to The Winthrop Society, the rolls for the first noted Elizabeth passage (William Andrewes, Master) were recorded in mid-April 1635, but that record "is some six months after the ship departed." 
• 2nd Of the second passage (William Stagg, Master), the Society writes that it "sailed from London in the latter half of April, 1635."

I'm still investigating the third ship. 

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Isn't that fascinating!  Still wouldn't we take the voyage by Andrewes to be 1634?  I mean, I see where once it is referred to as 1635 on the site you linked but the year on the index of sailings is 1634 and the year for date of record for all the passengers is 1634 -- albeit, seven months after departure.  hmm.  Are we talking  about sailing the long way?  I read somewhere that sailings from England to New England booked passage to various of the Carribean colonies to dodge the authorities who were trying to stem the emmigrations to New England.  I don't know what date date of record would be.

And are you suggesting the three references are to different ships? or are we talking one ship and two or three sailings?  Again, I read somewhere that the Elizabeth made several sailings during that migration, ie more than most.

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In my own little quick survey, I find notes about a pack of four ships deparating Bristol "23 May 1635." The pack included the Elizabeth (above) and also the Angel Gabriel. See the current notes on the category page for Angel Gabriel. 

As to the Elizabeth departing from Bristol, I didn't find further information.

WikiTree category page reports a passenger aboard the Elizabeth as "John Holloway," but this seems an oversight.  Robert Charles Anderson's profiling of Holloway (2003) reports he enrolled from Longon on the Elizabeth & Ann, citing "Hotten 72" [The Great Migration, Immigrants to New England, 1634-1635, Volume III, G-H (2003), 284 (in particular part).] {Update: On Holloway's profile, I did subsequently remove the category for the Elizabeth from Bristol]

Joseph wrote, " I learned that one of the five ship fleet sailing in 1585 for Roanoke was Elizabeth, I had presumed that the same ship that sailed in 1635 to Boston." 

That's interesting. Unless information was available to confirm the identity of the 1585 and 1635 ships, I wouldn't assume them to have been the same. I'm always amazed at what one can learn when they seek to find. Perhaps there is yet more information available about the ships of 1585. 

Hope this helps.

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After some review, the only evidence I can find of an Elizabeth sailed 23 May 1635 is a Wikipedia entry, naming the five ships GeneJ spoke of.

I believe the Wikipedia entry should read Elizabeth and Ann. This is strengthened by the argument that William Cooper was Master of the flagship James (part of the fleet), and Robert Cooper (perhaps a relation?) was Master of the Elizabeth and Ann.

There are no WikiTree profiles associated with the Elizabeth, May 1635 category. Might we just want to remove this category?

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Hi Bryan,

Good thoughts.

See my note below, there are a few things about the ship category pages that have come up. They really need some PGM-ers to care for them. As below, am sending note to you.

Thanks.

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thank you all for your insight.  I've found it enlightening.  I gather from reviewing these comments and referenced sources that duplicate ship names are not out of the question.

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Joseph, I'm looking at the PGM Project page and don't see anything related to the ships. What page are you looking at, please? 

Thanks.

 

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It's on the Great Migration Ships page. The ship is listed as the Elizabeth.

I believe it should correctly be the Elizabeth and Ann, but there is already a different category for that ship and sailing.

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Thanks for the link, Bryan. FYI, the collection of ships and their real/supposed passenger lists are NOT formally part of the Puritan Great Migration project, which focuses on profiles of individuals, not on ships or passenger lists.

That said, the two efforts are certainly related. GeneJ is working on some emergency editing; and we'll be seeking one or more volunteers to take on maintenace of these pages. Keep an eye out for more detail as it develops.

Answer 1

I haven't dug into this issue too deeply. but it's possible there was more than one ship named the Elizabeth - a reigning monarch around this time. For instance, there were several Mayflowers, including a second (different) Mayflower that made a voyage to the New World in 1629.

You're correct that most voyages took around 60 days; I've seen as little as 40 and as long as 90 depending on the time of year, weather, and route chosen, although return voyages tended to be shorter owing to the ocean currents. The ships required time to offload passengers and cargo, often underwent repairs in Boston or their destination port, and re-stocked and loaded cargo for the return trip.

It's hard to think a ship of that era would have been in service for 50 years. These ships were not built to last; they were built for economy and utility.

 

Maybe you could check Hotten and the Immigrant Ships Transcriber's Guild to clear up information about these two sailings?

Comments

at your suggestion i did retrieve a copy of Hotten's work, thank you.  I'm presuming your suggestion was intended for my use, ie you're not expecting a response from he.

Answer 2

While we're on the topic, I noticed a completely unrelated voyage on the PGM page listing ship name 'Unknown' sailed Mar 20, 1635/6 from Weymouth, England.

I am very familiar with this particular voyage, having spent months trying to track down the name. This was the Hull Company, led by Rev. Joseph Hull.

The year listed is incorrect: it should read 1634/5 (William Bradford notes its arrival in Boston Harbor on May 6, 1635 but does not name the ship).

I'm hesistant to just go in and change it for fear it might break the template or someting. Suggestions?

Comments

Yeah, I tried changing it; broke the template.

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Hi Bryan, 

Good catch and good work on Unknown.  

Following your lead, I pulled up the Great Migration article on Joseph Hull (1634-1635, G-H, 452+). It reports Hull and family enrolled for passage "20 March 1634/5" aboard the Marygould.

Anderson cites "Hotten 283" (click to view) and "GMN 79." Latter is Great Migration Newletter, which I haven't reviewed. Hotten doesn't seem to given the name of the ship, but seems the source of the date issue--see the footnote "Really 1635/6." 

Perhaps Marygould (aka Unknown) is also aka WikiTree's Mary Gold? (Click for category page.) We are reporting a source there as "Coldham page 130" (presumed Peter Wilson Coldham, who authored more than one book on passages).

Would seem questions about as many as six of our Great Migration ship pages are raised in this G2G; another was raised last week. We know there are other content issues on the pages, too. Hope we can put our heads together and look into this, Bryan.  Will send a message. 

Thanks again

P.S. Perhaps others reading this thread are also interested?

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I am also interested in the Mary Gould/Marygould/Mary gold, and the addition of Joseph Hull, his family and servants. I am just now adding him to my ancestry. I'm looking forward to any updates. Has anyone found anything recently? Thanks!