Marjory (Gordon) Lumsden (1475 - 1513)

Please note the comment on page 41 of https://archive.org/details/memorialsoffamil1889lums/page/40/mode/2up?view=theater a reference to a charter crest and explanation as proof that John Lumsden-350 was heir to his nephew Patrick. Sir Patrick Hepburn-88 of Bolton who died 1576. This implies that Sir Patrick Hepburn-88 was the nephew of John Lumsden-350 of Cushnie who died in 1588. This supports the hypothesis in my previous email below that Marjory Gordon-2800 Lumsden and Margaret Gordon-616 Hepburn could be the same person. Patrick Hepburn the husband of Margaret Gordon-616 died in 1508. John Lumsden-350 the son of Thomas Lumsden-36 and Marjory Gordon-2800 is born in 1510.

Marjory Gordon-2800 Lumsden and Margaret Gordon-616 Hepburn could be the same person. Patrick Hepburn the husband of Margaret Gordon-616 died in 1508. John Lumsden-350 the son of Thomas Lumsden-36 and Marjory Gordon-2800 is born in 1510.

Margaret Lumsden-148 Lundie born before 1486 is unlikely to be the daughter of this Thomas Lumsden-36 and either Marjory born 1475 or Margaret born about 1470. Very young mothers and Thomas the father would be 6. Margaret Lumsden-148 profile is misconnected. There are Thomas of Cullen Lumsden-618 and Thomas of Cushnie Lumsden-36. Margaret Lumsden-148 Lundie is erroneously connected to 2 different fathers Thomas Lumsden-36 and Thomas Lumsden-618 through Marjory Gordon-2800.

According to the Lumsden pedigree James Lumsden-405 should be first born of Thomas Lumsden-36 and Marjory (or Margaret) Gordon. James' birthdate is not known. But his wife Christian Leith was born in 1520 which means James could fit the hypothesis that the Marjory and Margaret are the same person.

This hypothesis implies that Marjory/Margaret Gordon is the daughter of George Gordon Seton-520 of Huntly and probably Annabella Stewart-1854 Gordon countess of Huntly. This puts Thomas Lumsden Marjory /Margaret Gordon and George and Elizabeth Gordon all in Aberdeenshire at about the time with feasible ages and apparently no over lapping children.

Did you consider these references before removing the parents of Thomas Lumsden and Marjory?

(1) "We must now return to Thomas, the eldest son, who was killed at Flodden. He married Marjory Gordon, and, says the Cushnie MS., had, "after his death" (surely a most un- exampled phenomenon ; but the writer's meaning is clear, though language fails him) "seven sons and five daughters. His two brothers, Mr Matthew and Robert Lumsden, being tutors, did apply the rents of Cushnie, Fowlis, Clova, Medlaris to their own use, and did give the brother's bairns neither upbringing at schools nor any help otherwise. They matched the lasses upon poor husbandmen as it is known in the country, and the male children were put to seek their father's sword." I have already said that some of this is irreconcilable with dates and the facts disclosed by existing documents ; but it is certainly true that Thomas Lumsden had a large family. He must have married very young, and nine of his children at any rate can be accounted for — James, William (?), John, Robert, and five daughters." page 35 in Memorials of the families of Lumsdaine, Lumisden, or Lumsden. by Lumsden, Henry William. https://archive.org/details/memorialsoffamil1889lums/page/34/mode/2up

(2) This source has nothing available online and requires a visit to the repository at Univ of Aberdeen but contains 19 boxes of Lumsden papers. Could someone from the Scotland group visit the repository? Description of 'Lumsden family of Cushnie, Aberdeenshire (fl 15th c - 19th c), Papers of the Lumsden family of Cushnie, Aberdeenshire, 1464 - 1891 and 1901 - 1957. University of Aberdeen Special Collections. GB 231 MS 2500' on the Archives Hub website, (date accessed :11/07/2021) https://archiveshub.jisc.ac.uk/search/archives/1bcb5b39-ff87-3605-ad14-94ac5226704f

(3) "Duncan Forbes married Marjorie Gordon, relict to Thomas Lumsden of Cushnie, who did beai\to him two daughters — one married to Wm. Gordon, (called \Vm. with the head) ; the other married on Duncan T and*- ; the sd. Duncan dyed without issue. " page 45 in Genealogy of the family of Forbes. by Lumsden, Matthew. 1819. from the account of Mr. Mathew Lumsden of Tulliekerne, written in 1580. by Lumsden, Matthew, of Tulliekerne. https://archive.org/details/genealogyoffamil1819lums/page/44/mode/2up

I have also written to the clan Lumsden genealogist and to the chief of clan Lumsden for additional information.

This profile cites thepeerage.com as a source, but that website does not support the information shown here. According to thepeerage.com, John Stewart, 1st Erl of Atholl, married twice. By his first wife, Lady Margaret Douglas, he had a daughter, Lady Jean Stewart, who did in 1510, and was married to Alexander Gordon, 3rd Earl of Huntly. They had children, none of them named Marjorie or anything near to it.

By his second wife, Lady Eleanor Sinclair, the Earl was father of Lady Janet Stewart, who married James Arbuthnot of that Ilk, again had children, none of them named Marjorie or anything similar. By this second wife, he also had a daughter shown by the name of Lady Jean Stewart, who married Robert Gordon, 3rd of Auchleuchries and 1st of Pitlurg, and they also had no children named Marjorie.

Even if you take into account the many ways the name Johanna/Joanna/Janet/Jean was used in 15th and 16th Century Scotland, and the plethora of daughters, and more than one man named Gordon, it's clear there is a problem of fact here, rather than one of style or opinion.

Since I am one of the many, many people who show up as being a descendant of John of Gaunt by this chain of descent, if it is incorrect, I would like it to be corrected. I don't want to to be seen as accepting such a pedigree if it is not accurate, even in the most passive manner.

This profile is attached to two spouses with the same exact name, but with parents/dates different enough that a merge wouldn't be straightforward. Are these the same people or is one of them possibly incorrectly attached?