Question

Is a gravestone that lists the names of the children (they are living) allowed to be posted on this site?

Edited to add link to gravestone which led me to ask this question:

Gravestone Photo

Edited again:

With this particular gravestone photo, I don’t know if the children listed on it are still living or not. I haven’t gotten that far, but I wanted to get clarification in general if one or more of the children are still living and are listed on a gravestone. 

Answer 1

Not entirely sure, but - we aren't supposed to post obituaries with names of living children, so why should a gravestone be any different?

Comments

Maybe ... because it’s a gravestone in a public cemetery that is accessible to the public.

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Yes, you're right, it is in a public cemetery and anyone "walking through" the cemetery can see it. However it becomes a little different now since the advent of the internet and the world wide web. Nowadays anyone can take a photograph and post it to a website where anyone throughout the world can view/access it. Back when many of these headstones/plaques were installed, the internet was just in its infancy and I don't think that the family member/s (especially the older generations) would have expected that someone (a stranger) decades later, would take photographs of their family members' headstone and upload it to a website for the potential viewing of the entire world. There are still a lot of people in this world trying to hold on to their privacy in a world where, due to the internet and social media, it is getting harder to maintain. The same goes for newspapers and other private records that are now readily accessible on the internet. If the image you wish to upload is for your own family, I would consult with the living members first to ask if they would be okay with you uploading it onto WikiTree. If they say okay then go for it. However, if it isn't for your own family I would suggest you either don't put the image up or alternatively make the profile private enough that only people on the trusted list can view it.

Answer 2

I guess you have to think how you would feel if it was you and is there a possibility that someone could misread it to mean they were also dead?

Comments

I thought about it and here is my response.

No, I don’t have to guess .... I would NEVER drag my feelings into the posting of a gravestone photo from a public cemetery onto a worldwide accessible website.

The family wasn’t thinking about their feelings when they told the monument company to engrave their names on the gravestone and put it in a public cemetery.

Neither was my mom and her sister thinking about their feelings when they told the monument company to engrave their names on their parents’ gravestone and put it in a public cemetery.

Neither I or my brothers are thinking about our feelings when we tell the monument company to engrave a gravestone for our parents and engrave our names on it, which will be placed in a public cemetery.

If children are worried about their feelings because someone might think they are dead because they decided to put their names on a gravestone that is placed in a public cemetery, then they should feel how stupid they were to decide to put their names on the gravestone. Or they might be thinking how stupid the person is that thinks they are dead just because they decided to put their names on the gravestone.

Now, to the person who looks at a gravestone in a cemetery or a photo of the gravestone on a website and assumes that the children are dead just because they are listed on the gravestone, STOP ASSUMING!

Is this site really going to drag “feelings” into the decision process on what gravestone photos are posted?

Answer 3

I go with the better safe than sorry concept.  I wouldn't hesitate to put the FAG link on the profile though.  If it is your family, then I would ask.  I'm assuming it isn't though

I will also admit that I have done it with my cemetery study where a spouse is on the headstone with a missing death date.  Your question is a good one and makes me pause to reconsider this.

Comments

This is not my family.  I’m just cleaning up the BUCH surname profiles, and this is my first find.

Answer 4

There is a statement in the Photo Privacy page of the Help file saying "Please note that we never recommend uploading sensitive images of young children and that there are restrictions about the content of images in the Terms of Service."  I understand that you're not proposing to upload images of the children themselves, so my direct answer is that I have never seen any rule or policy statement here that specifically prohibits it.  If you are posting the photo on the profiles of the living children, which are presumably Unlisted, or the profiles of one or both deceased parents, and those profile(s) are still Private, then the photo would be private as well.  Members of the trusted list could see it and others could see a thumbnail version.  If you need the photo as a source, and it is on another web site, such as FAG, you could sidestep the issue by just linking to the other web site.

Having said all that, Grandma had a rule to live by:  "When in doubt, don't."  If the photo isn't really a critical source, and you can dance around the factual data without actually posting it, you might consider holding off.  You can always decide to post it later if the rules liberalize a bit, or if the children are old enough to say they don't care.  (My $0.02)

Comments

The names can always be blurred out or the photo cropped to eliminate them, but I am just seeking clarification on policy when dealing with a gravestone with a child or children listed on it and they are presumed to still be living.

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Yes, you can do those things if you need to use the photo.  I would include a note saying that the photo has been edited or modified for privacy considerations.  I don't know of a policy statement that answers the question specifically.

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I agree if this were about young children, this may be a concern. This headstone however has parents that were born in 1920s. The "children" in question were likely born around the 40s or 50s. These people are not young children. They are most likely grandparents or great grandparents. We have a cemetery in the family that has the kids names on the parents' headstone and spouses are already named on them with birthdates. None of the family is concerned as there is no way to ID these people as many have the same name and they are all older anyway with (at the very least) adult children of their own. As to thinking they are passed, no where on the stone does it say they are passed or alive, just lists first names that the parents gave their kids when they were born.

Answer 5

If it is in a public cemetery it is there for all to see anyway, so I don't see a problem, but I wouldn't do profiles for the living children.

Answer 6

I prefer not to post headstone images at all, because sometimes families are quite possessive of their family stone, to the point of raising fences and hiring guards to prevent photography and memorialization.

Answer 7

The photo is already public at FindAGrave. But I would not repost it here - not just because of the children's names, but because you didn't take the photo, so the photographer might not be happy about it. Why not just include a link (as you did here) to the photo in the profile?

Comments

As of now, I do write that a gravestone photo is available to see on Find a Grave and provide a link.

But, I’m thinking if the photo is already on Find a Grave, then I would invite the person who took the photo to post it on WikiTree providing them with a link to the appropriate profile.

By doing this, I’m thinking we may gain many more photos and a new Wiki member.

However, I don’t want to invite new members to start posting pictures and then they get all embroiled with privacy issues pertaining to the content of their photos.

I need an explicit “gravestone content” policy that I can present to potential invitees.

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Got it. Interesting. I have gravestone photo that I took where the wife has died, but her husband is still living and his name and birth date are also etched onto the stone. I've held back posting the photo (anywhere) for that reason, although I have considered blurring out his name and birth date. However, I do not think I would post it unredacted no matter what the policy. Attracting new members is a worthy goal, though!

Answer 8

Here is some information from the help pages:

Information on Living Family Members: Photos

You can upload family photos and connect them with person profiles.

Photos that include living people may be shared publicly but must not be linked to the name or personal identification of non-members and must not include "Exif metadata" that could be used to identify a living person other than yourself.

Photos can be removed and deleted at any time by the member who uploaded the photo or upon request of any person that appears in the photo or whose Personal Information is stored in photo metadata.

Photos FAQ: How do you know if you have permission to upload a photo?

Generally speaking, you have permission to upload a photo if:

- you took the photo yourself.

- the person who took the photo gave you permission to share it on WikiTree.

- the image is in the public domain. See Stanford University's definition of public domain and the Legal Genealogist's "Copyright and the old family photo."

You generally do not have permission if you downloaded it from another website.

Commercial sites such as Ancestry.com and Find-A-Grave do not generally allow republishing images. Even non-commercial sites may disallow public sharing of downloaded images. You need to check their terms of use. 

Answer 9

My assessment is that when families put names of the living in obituaries in a public newspaper or on gravestones in cemeteries, they demonstrate that they are not overly concerned about privacy.  Instead, they demonstrate that they want to honor and publicize a family legacy and a family connection.

In this day and age, it’s hard to keep basic family information private. Still, those who want to try to keep such basic information private tend to take some basic steps by limiting the information on gravestones and leaving at least full names out of obituaries.

So, I would put the photo of the gravestone on the profile it is a source for.

Answer 10

It seems to me that the first question to ask, before you even get to the names on the stone, is whether we should be posting images from FindAGrave directly to WikiTree.  

The Terms of Service available at the FAG website (owned by Ancestry) say, in section 2 "you agree...Not to resell the Services or to resell, reproduce or publish any content or information found on the Services, except as explicitly described in these Terms."

And in section 5 "You may use the Ancestry Content only as necessary for your personal use of the Services or your professional family history research, and download the Ancestry Content only as search results relevant to that research or where expressly permitted by Ancestry."

There was a discussion about this on G2G in 2019 that also mentions the rights of the photographers who took the photos:

https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/897002/findagrave-photos?show=897002#q897002