could someone with pre-1500 certification merge these profiles please? [closed]

+5 votes
260 views
WikiTree profile: William Torrington
closed with the note: completed
in Policy and Style by PE Rosner G2G6 (9.5k points)
closed by PE Rosner

3 Answers

+4 votes
Which profiles? And what is your source for requesting this merge?
by Ros Haywood G2G Astronaut (2.0m points)
+5 votes
Merge completed. They are both sourceless, so sources are arbitary. The only thing in common is the date.
by Gill Whitehouse G2G6 Pilot (109k points)
Sources are *never* arbitrary, IMHO.  If this had been a post-1500 proposed merge, sources or a darn good reason should be supplied *before* a merge should be completed.
Wrong choice of word perhaps, but when both profiles only have one date (the same date) on them and nothing else,  I don't see any reason to block a merge,
+5 votes
It may seem harmless to merge two unsourced profiles, but the fact is you should only merge profiles that you are SURE are the same, and how can you be sure of anything if you don't have sources?  The sequence should be (1) Research (2) Merge (3) Edit.  

My quibble is really with WikiTree on this, with its invitation to people to merge profiles that were proposed for merge a month ago without response, and now anyone and everyone is invited to complete the merge.  There is, of course a warning that not all merges, even those that are approved, should be completed, but that warning may fall on deaf ears.
by Jack Day G2G6 Pilot (462k points)
Perhaps I come from a different perspective. If the original profile has no sources, and the proposed merged has no sources, and the only thing they have in common is 1120, surely it;s better to merge them and start from that point.

I won't merge any again :)
How could we be any more sure in this case Jack?
By researching.  If Gill had said he'd researched the name and date and couldn't find anything anywhere about that name and date, that would have been fine.
But couldn't it be presumed that the research had already been done by the merge proposer Darlene Athey-Hill?
What researching can we do in such cases Jack? Which information would you look for if the two profiles looked the same and there are no sources? If we have to hesitate to merge all unsourced and identical looking profiles how can we clean up all the old duplications caused by gedcom imports?

By the way I think this family will need more merges. Over the years I have placed more information on profiles of relatives over the years. I don't see any evidence for there being 3 generations of Williams, which is what we still have.

I agree with Andrew, that there is a problem with this genealogy and there seem to be too many William Torrington's but when you look at the changes for both profiles, (which I think is always a good thing to do) they originally had different birth dates, at least a generation apart, and that should warrant further investigation before completing a merge.

@Melanie - no offence to Darlene or anyone else, but I wouldn't want to presume that research has taken place by the person proposing the merge. I think the onus is always on the person completing the merge to make sure the two profiles are the same person. 

Afterall the name of the person completing the merge is on that final step which can't be undone. I'd want to make sure I wasn't making a mistake. crying

I tend to do both — research before I propose a merge, and research before I complete one (unless I proposed it).
I don't normally propose a merge unless I have some solidity on which to base it.

The additional issue here is that the profiles are pre-1500, so adding sources before merging is critical. If you can't find any sources, add research notes. Please don't arbitrarily merge presumed duplicates. As John noted, the change log shows these could very well have originally represented different people. 

I think the latest answers form a neat set of points which can be considered in sequence.

@Bobbie and Melanie. To focus on what I think is most important in what you are saying, I certainly agree that when we make changes we should have sources to back up our work. However, in this case I think that for some years the situation has been stuck. While the family as a whole certainly exists, and we can therefore look at sources about the whole family, there are a bunch of Williams connected to it in Wikitree who seem to be an artifact of merges and memes.

In other words, some profiles can't really be connected to good sources. They are completely different from what we find in good sources. Wikitree can get stuck if there are demands that we must to find a sources saying that Wikitree is wrong in such cases. That would effectively be asking for evidence of no evidence. I hope that makes sense!

@John. I agree with the idea of trying to understand the history of the profiles (and therefore the intentions of past editors) in cases where there are no sources. I also try to do that. In this case, and in the case of merges generally, I sometimes find it difficult.

FWIW the strong impression I get when trying to find some kind of explanation of the intentions of past editors in this case is that (as often on Wikitree) the dates have been shifted around just to make the result of gedcom merges etc look more believable. I think we all know that this is commonly seen as good practice by many Wikitree editors and is very common. Wikitree editors do not get outraged about such changes being done without any sources. But in cases like this it only makes it more difficult to reconstruct what real people, if any, are really being referred to in our profiles.

A common type of history might be that old gedcoms somewhere on the internet gave different birth or death guesses to the same person, and somewhere on the internet, perhaps on Wikitree but probably on a gedcom which eventually came to Wikitree, these different versions of the same person became different people.

Question to everyone: in practice, at what point do we accept that there is no way to reconstruct any significant type of evidence-based genealogical reasoning from an unsourced profile, and just switch to what good published sources say? In practice at the moment we are sometimes getting stuck for years.

IMHO best practice would be first trying to search for any recent source that has questioned the solid looking scenario in Keats-Rohan and Sanders, but I do not have time to do it right now. Looking around quickly though, I could not see anything, and the "one William" scenario looks very well founded in primary sources. (There is also a grandson named William who we do not have, FWIW.)

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