Scotland post 1801 - is it mandatory to add United Kingdom to location fields? [closed]

Question

Recently, the England Project confirmed on this board that the addition of “United Kingdom” to post 1801 locations was optional. Ie Town, County, England is all that is required (although PMs can choose to add “United Kingdom” where appropriate if they wish). What is the position in relation to Scotland please?

Comments

Is it true that "United States" can be omitted if a state name is present? If so, it would be fair if Scotland as well as England and Wales can appear without United Kingdom.

Edited to add: My query and comment here are intended to offer a way of looking at Susan's question, not as criticism of existing practice. If they are interpreted as such, the allowance in G2G discussion rule 2 for constructive criticism of groups may be relevant. I have removed an oblique reference to potential Scottish independence in my original comment in case that was controversial.

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I don't think the comparison is a valid one.  Scotland has always been a country in its own right, as with England (once the independent Kingdoms merged into what became a united England, anyway), and as has Wales (despite the annexation by an English King, Wales was not part of England), whereas Illinois, or Michigan, or Colorado, etc, are states within a country not countries in their own right.  In the same way, Queensland (Victoria, Tasmania, South Australia, etc) is not a country on its own, but is part of the country of Australia.

I've always seen Scotland the way I see England - a country in its own right, even if part of a larger political entity, with no need to add anything after the country name as said country name clearly defines what is intended.

(I saw nothing in Jim's original post that appeared to be criticism.)

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Thank you, Melanie. I guess I should rephrase my point to say that if indeed it is true (I'm not sure about this) that US states can appear in location fields without the country name, then all the more so Scotland should be able to. I endorse the England Project decision Susan mentioned to make "United Kingdom" optional after "England", at profile manager discretion.

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The other reason not to use it is that UK, as it is understood today, includes Northern Ireland, and is only technically correct after about 1927.

It is also not used until very recently. You will not find it on sources or  letters or addresses etc. from even a few years ago. People use Great Britain or GB for short.  Examples abound - see the GB sticker on cars, Team Great Britain in the olympics - the Great British Bake Off. Britain's Got Talent etc etc ad infinitum. Nationality was given as British.  The common usage of UK is a very recent thing.

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Great Britain refers to the mainland of Scotland, England and Wales. The United Kingdom is the political state which includes Northern Ireland.  It's confusing - even to the British - but they are not the same thing.  The United Kingdom may not have been used commonly until recently, but that argument has already been recently disregarded as irrelevant in another place-name discussion. The United Kingdom was established in 1801 but once the Irish Free State was established in 1922, the correct designation for the internationally recognised sovereign state became The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.  It's a bit of a mouthful and so United Kingdom is an accepted abbreviation.  However Wikitree is international and consistency is important so it doesn't make sense to me personally that United Kingdom is considered optional for any of the countries inside its borders.

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This raises a question: when WikiTree says "use their conventions instead of ours", who does "their" refer to? My view is that it refers to the ancestors and other people we are developing profiles for, not to governmental or official power. Many Scottish people in the past and to this day would prefer an independent Scotland, and think of themselves as Scottish ahead or instead of being British. If profile managers wish to omit "United Kingdom" out of respect for this, that choice should be open to them.

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Indeed, Jim Richardson, it is a valid point.  I appreciate that most decisions on Wikitree are reached by discussion between a group of people having to balance very different views for the best outcome.  In that respect the "use their convention" is a good compromise but it is only a compromise and isn't universally applied.  If it were, most British contributors would shorten all the county names to their conventional norm - Lincs, Yorks, Lancs, etc. Likewise American states would probably all be two letter abbreviations.  All fine for locals but useless to people from other areas trying to navigate the international waters.  Obviously you just can't please all the people all the time!  

Sadly we don't yet have a definite response to Susan Stopford's question but it has generated some interesting discussion.

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Perhaps the absence of an answer is itself an answer. If the Scotland Project wished "United Kingdom" to be mandatory (Susan's question), there would be a project document saying so, but I haven't found a location standard among the pages under Category: Scotland Project.

If such a standard is developed, the formulation of the Australia Project Acceptable Formats for locations would be a good model. The three formats "reflect the differering preferences of members, all of which are currently considered valid." A similar approach for Scotland could allow "United Kingdom" to be included or omitted at the discretion of profile managers.

Edited to add: By delving deeper I found Location Field Guidelines for the Scotland Project, but it is silent on the question we are discussing here.

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This question arises with great regularity, so we've appended a statement on our Location Field Guidelines for clarity

"It is not a requirement to add Great Britain or United Kingdom after Scotland in their respective time periods, but it is acceptable and encouraged."

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My POV may be negligible, but having spent the better part of my life as a secretary, I always had to take the long view of history. How would an entry be viewed by someone else who would follow? The more complete a name is, the better it may be identified. We are all of an understanding in this era of what a place might be, but how would others - in a long distant future - be able tell what it is? It could be very confusing to someone who does not have the benefit of a collective memory.

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I think even now most of us can identify Alba as Scotland. Adding UK to place names for the post-1801 period does no harm, but I don't think we need to *require* that members add it to every profile. Honestly, I'm just happy when Scotland is added, or any other applicable country name.

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While there are numerous comments on the changes in meaning of UK and Great Britain in this discussion, I doubt that any Wikitree user would be confused about what is meant by Scotland or England and require broader definition.

Answer 1

We will discuss this with the Project membership and formally introduce a policy soon. At present, we include  "United Kingdom" in the location fields for our Tartan Trail profiles, where the event takes place after 1801.

Comments

It is not a requirement to add Great Britain or United Kingdom after Scotland in their respective time periods, but it is acceptable and encouraged.

We've amended the page for our Location Field Guidelines to clarify the Project's position.

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Hi Bobbie, Thanks for updating that page. Have you taken this step as an interim measure while the Scotland Project reviews its policy as outlined by Jacqueline in her answer, or is this change the outcome of those discussions? Also, what does "encouraged" mean? Will it remain at the discretion of the PM whether to add "United Kingdom" to locations in Scotland, or will the Project encourage its members (and possibly others) to add United Kingdom to location fields across Wikitree? Will you ask Ales to amend his list of acceptable formats for Scotland? Currently that list shows Scotland is sufficient. I ask because there are a number of Wikitreers who have been adding "United Kingdom" to Scotland (and also England), even where the data in the location field is in keeping with Ales' list of acceptable locations. This is partly why the England Project recently reconfirmed its position (that the addition of United Kingdom is not mandatory).

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Thanks Jacqueline. Much appreciated. Please also see my reply to Bobbie.

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Susan, 

That's the final outcome, our policy is published on the page for Scottish Location Field Guidelines. We won't be asking Aleš to create an error for profiles that don't have UK on them. As a Project, we encourage, not mandate, the use of UK in the place name field. We don't feel it's necessary to require the use of UK for all profiles, as many would prefer to keep it simply "Scotland," which is a country in its own right. If a member wishes to add it to their own profiles, that's fine, since it is correct. As for others making changes to someone else's profiles, I personally would advise against doing it as some may take offence. It can be a politically touchy issue, best left alone (imho). 

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thanks for clarifying :)

Answer 2

In answer to your question Susan - No it is not mandatory.

The England Project some time ago took the stand that adding the United Kingdom was not necessary. As with Scotland and Wales, they have retained the country name, over time there have been so many overarching names for our countries. The main suggestion for English locations is the use of the United Kingdom or UK before January 1801.

Ales's location suggestions accept just the country for all time frames.

Northern Ireland's name is again a political name that has only existed since 1927 when partition occurred due to an act of the English Parliament.

Hope this helped  ~ Janet

Answer 3

Well, I have a related question. 

As an American, I tried my best to do due diligence and on a profile of a person that was born in England in the late 1700s, I put after England, "Great Britain". This was after consulting this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Great_Britain

"The state was created by the 1706 Treaty of Union and ratified by the Acts of Union 1707, which united the kingdoms of England (which included Wales) and Scotland to form a single kingdom encompassing the whole island of Great Britain and its outlying islands, with the exception of the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands." (emphasis mine)

So I thought I was doing the right thing for this profile. Someone came along and removed "Great Britain" from the profile's locations, and just left it at England. Technically, I think this is incorrect, based on history. The greater political unit should be in the location field.

When the policy is discussed, can this time period be brought up as well?