How do you get male DNA ancestor on your tree, when there has been a surname change?

Question

We have an "orphan of..." situation in which is said to have been the "Orphan of Peter" Bryan(t) in Lewis County, KY in 1812.  His son Daniel wanted to get married and had to be adopted (because of legal age), in order to do that.  I have confirmed DNA matches of the wives of each generation downstream, but nothing with the men. 

The YDNA test, on the supposed "Bryant" took the 46 marker test, with the closest match at about 6-7 males at a 3 genetic difference.  Surname of Huff, SNP tested YP730 positive, for Dutchman Derrick Pauluszen Hoff line.  His father was Paulus Dircke, b. 1620, Hoven, Zutphen, Gelderland, Netherlands, d. 24 MAY 1692 • Brooklyn, Kings County (Brooklyn), New York.  The only Bryant listed on the project.

Do I need to change the Bryant males to Huff on my tree to get DNA hits?  I am trying to think of everything.  My DNA shows Huff, also on my other parent, however GEDmatch does not show they are related.

Thank you for any suggestions.

 

Comments

From a wikitree perspective, your Bryan(t) line would show a DNA link when your tree joins a Huff tree that has also tested Y-DNA.

I would be cautious of jumping to conclusions though based on the testing you have mentioned. YP730 is not a terminal SNP and seems to suggest a common ancestor about 4000 years ago.

If you have three differences at 46 markers, there is a possibility that will increase markedly at 111 markers. With my own testing I had two matches with one difference at 67 markers and one of these remained the same while the other leapt to 9 differences. That changed the result from being a 95% likelihood of a match in 12 generations to 95% in 24.

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Thank you, Simon.  I appreciate your help.

Yes, I do understand about how everything would link up, if someone tested that has the same YDNA.  I am hoping that happens soon!  :)

The folks at FTDNA told me that the YP730 would establish a connection through that surname line, but of course, they couldn't tell me when that was.  4,000 years?  That is almost too much to even contemplate.  I was also told on the Yahoo group, DNA-Newbies, that it would not help to go up another test, since a genetic difference of 3, was so far off.  If I got closer matches, most definitely, yes.

Thanks again for answering and your time, but I may have to see if anyone matches me, when they add their info on WikiTree.

It might make sense however, why I have so many Morgan Bryan & Martha Strode Bryan DNA hits, on Ancestry.  I called them to explain my situation and they said that based off of so many matches with DNA other folks and their trees with Morgan and Martha, I should most definitely be related genetically.

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You mentioned that it was stated that a difference of three markers would make a match to distant to be of assistance. That is not entirely correct.

Some markers "can" change quite frequently (i.e. inter-generational), while other markers change less frequently. The distance to a matches Most Recent Common Ancestor is based on which of the markers are different and not just the number of differences.

If you are checking your DNA results from the FTDNA Surname Group it will show the different colours for each marker. These colours determine whether they are fast or slow moving markers. The maroon markers are all fast changing, so if your match shows three variances with those, it can still indicate a fairly recent match. This is what the TIP report bases its' percentages on.

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I don't know how to check the colors of the markers.  Can you please explain how to do that?  Maybe I won't have to search through another language in papers, to find the connection.

You've given me some hope!  :)

Thank you so much, Simon.

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This is assuming that your Y-DNA test has been joined to a surname project. If you look at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/bryan/default.aspx?section=ycolorized this link to the Bryan/Bryant Y-DNA results you will see that the markers are colour coded.

There is a link in the description that will give you an indication of what the colour coding means.

So if you have differences in the blue markers between matches, these indicate a greater distance back in time to a common ancestor. The Maroon markers are the ones that can change quite frequently and therefore if they show variances the time period is not so great.

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Yes, I have joined Bryan(t) surname, with the only Hoff (Huff) on their list.  They do not show any colored markers, probably because I am the only one with the haplogroup of Q.  I may be able to use this list to identify a generation, too.

Yes, I have joined the Hough group and match them, the Huffs.  I see two blue color coded markers.  So, it is those two that may have mutated faster & also, with upgraded testing, it may show more closely matched subjects within whom, I already match?

Also yesterday, under TIPs, I found that one of my Huff match "earliest ancestor" was from IN.  I started looking there also.  I understand that the person suspects his family was from there and may not yield any answers.

Thank you for helping me "get back up," after a full-time, solid 2 year search, with a renewed sense of hope!

Where is the "thank you" buttons on this site?  You have been very helpful and Simon, your time is appreciated!

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With you being the only Bryant with a haplogroup Q it probably doesn't help, but the Hough does. As you mentioned you have two markers in blue along your testing line. If you then scroll to the top of the page you will see what markers they relate to.

In your case they are DYS449 and DYS464. You are also showing a difference with CDY when compared to kit 235517. So all of those are considered fast mutating markers. There is also kit 154442 that seems to be showing the same individual as yourself (although death date is different) and their difference on DYS391 shows a slower mutating marker which generally will mean a greater distance to your common ancestor.

Bare in mind that with the two kits showing Derrick Pauluszen Hoff d1730 as the oldest ancestor, the difference on DYS391 could suggest that the genealogy is incorrect on one or the other.

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What does CDY mean?  I put the gentlemen that match into, a spreadsheet to see what you mean.  Yes, kit 154442 is another genetic step further out.

I  understand that a genetic mutation can happen between a father and son or a father and grandson.  But what do you suppose this "faster mutation" could possibly mean, generation wise?  At least after 1651?

Thank you, Simon!  :)

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CDY is an alternative name for DYS724. If you check this page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Y-STR_markers it gives a breakdown of the markers and also includes the mutation rate from which I would imagine the TIP report bases it's results on.

The faster mutation rate indicates that there is an increased likelihood of a change. Sadly there is no hard and fast rules.

You might find it beneficial to join the Q Haplogroup as that will also show other surnames that could be related.

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Thank you.  I will read the article & I did see, where it mentioned CDY.  There are only two other surnames on those that I am testing closest to.  I personally know one, but I have not heard back from the other.  Three of the other tests are another person that I know, but he is unavailable at this time.  Trying to communicate with those folks is something that I have worked very hard on.

I really didn't think that there rules just to how fast the mutation would occur, but possibly an educated guesstimate.

I belong to the Q Haplogroup on FTDNA and they are the ones to suggest testing SNP YP730 to determine if Derrick P Hoff was my line.  Is there another SNP that would be a better choice, that you are aware?

I need to really start studying the ISOGG and reading all the info on the DNA-Newbie, Yahoo group.  What tiny bit I understand, is not helpful for my situation.  This is most definitely, my shortcoming and need to go ahead and devote some time to it.

Thanks again, Simon!  You have been very patient with me and I appreciate it.

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Yes, they are making great strides on the Q haplogroup.  They have been finding new subclaides and the work looks exciting.

Last night, a received an email from a male Bryan, who had the Big Y done on his line.  He had the same Peter and Thomas (with the same story line), but no Daniel.  Also, he showed Cornelius as Thomas' father, while I showed Morgan.  This is clearly not my family.  I started running autosomal surname comparisons for one (which did not make any sense and had originally, lead me to do all the DNA testing), that yielded no results.  I ran the Goggle Chrome Add-In with Bryan(t), O'Brien(t) and the variants of Huff and am manually going into each tree to see if that will provide any hints.

I also continue to pursue the Morgan and Martha Strode Bryan connection, due to so many autosomal matches with others.   

Thank you for all of your time and suggestions, Simon!  I appreciate you hanging in there with me!

Answer 1

The Q Haplogroup results aren't visible so I can't even give you an uneducated guess on SNP testing :-)

With only 1000 members it would suggest that they are still in the process of creating the tree. Within my own J2 Haplogroup there are 3000 members and they are still creating new branches whenever they are lucky enough to get people to test the BigY. So the confirmed SNP side for Q is probably still outside the genealogical timeframe.

The reality with Y-DNA is that you have no real idea when that was introduced. It could be that Daniel is a Huff or it could have been introduced in an earlier non paternal event. If I test and my father test, we should match, but the Y-DNA won't tell me that we are father and son. It will only tell me that we have the same paternal ancestor and due to the closeness of the match, it is fairly recent.

Personally I think you have more hope of determining who Daniel's father was by using Autosomal DNA testing. If you manage to get other descendants of Daniel to test, it may help to pinpoint his DNA.

Answer 2

- email address removed -  I know a BRYANT with confirmed DNA,,, contact me for details.  - rephrased by kh -