Kinsman family in South Africa

Question

Hi Everyone

This is a long shot but I try

I am trying to trace my family tree prior to my grandfather. His name was John Edward born in 1888. We are South African so we are not directly part of the USA, Canadian or Australian Kinsman's and have not linked the connection yet.

However thereafter everything goes cold. My dad who is 83 already says my grandfather was born on a ship outside Durban in South Africa. Give that this may just be a legend we did search but found no Kinsman's arriving since 1852 when George Whitefield Kinsman came to South Africa from Cornwall. But no link has been made to them.

 

We searched for great-grandfather's name and was told by family - that it was either James Edward or Edward Albert Kinsman. There is not even a baptism certificate of John Edward Kinsman, my grandfather. I know where he is burried and that does not help me because I searched those records. he died when I was a little boy and was at his funeral - my dad arranged everything - so no new leads there.

 

I am at present trying to get my granfather's records from the South African government but they doubt if they have something new but they are searching anyway using his 1957 ID card.

 

I need help if you can on anything you may know.

Only family my grandad has was:

He had two sisters - one's name is Irene

He had two brothers -  Robert (???) and Joe.

My grand-dad lived in Fordsburg before moving to Grassmere

Please anyone with info I would be happy - Or ways to get info

We have tried National Archives, EGGSA etc etc already

Answer 1

Do you know what ship he was born on?  There would be a listing in the Captains log book.  The government might have the jmigration record but that generally has his age on the date of the document.  Where did he sail from?  Sometimes you can search backwards.  Where the ship sailed from, date of departure, destination, date of arrival.  These pieces of information can help narrow down the right vessel, so you can find the ships log.  Sometimes we have information and don't know it's value.  I did a general search of my resourses and was unable to find anything.  If you think of any little insignificant detail.  Add a comment to this question.  You will find the comment link at the bottom right of your question.  I have a few of these brick walls myself.  It is frustrating.

Comments

No Sir

 

That is what is so frustrating. I am suspecting that the "born on a ship" is a romantic notion by the "oldies" because no ship came with Kinsman holding the surname "Kinsman" and it is given that they were married when they had my grand-dad so no unknown illigitimate names.

The problem here is that the history ends with my grand-dad and is within my lifetime and I want to know exactly how they came here.

 

There is one Kinsman (George Whitefield) who arrived in that general time in 1852 but we are yet to link them. This family comes from the general area where my grand-dad comes from (Pietermaritzburg) and all first names seem to be the same (John, Edward, Albert, etc etc) so I strongly suspect that they are linked.

 

This man had many sons and daughters and I thought my sister's lead would link my great grandfather to George Whitefield, but when she dug out notes from my late uncle's oral sharing of names, it was James Edward and none of George Whitefield's sons is James Edward.

Goerge Whitefield's father was Andrew Kinsman the preacher connected to the Methodist preacher George Whitefield (hence the name) and they were from Cornwall - and George Whitefield in 1852 left Cornwall via Plymouth, so if any places to suggest is Plymouth.

 

Also as a paranoid comment - the South African Kinsman's seem that they have something to hide as they are very hard to share info

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Try the Kinsman Family Genealogy Forum.  It is a totally free surname specific question and answer forum.  I have had some success using it.  Tell them where you suspect his family came from, places where he may have lived, apporx dates he lived, married, died and anything you believe (such as kin to George.  Long shot but worth a try.  Last month I got an answer to a question I asked several years ago.  Good luck and happy hunting.  Your friend in Genealogy,  Al

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There are no South African records on this forum at all

Answer 2

I can't answer your question directly but have a couple of suggestions.

I've recently been researching the "George Whitfield" Kinsmans and have a reasonable file for them. My own interest is in the Kinsman surname generally as one part of a one-name study, so I'm only too happy to help if I can.

First suggestion is are you sure that your surname was originally Kinsman? It's just that the combination of James Edward or Edward Albert occurs much more frequently in the Kingsman family (of Wiltshire) than in either of the two major Kinsman families (of Cornwall). I have seen similar name shifts in Kingsman relatives who emigrated to Australia and became Kinsman there.

Second suggestion is have you tried a y-DNA test? I have a growing database of y-DNA markers for several Kinsman and Kingsman families. This may at least give a clue as to where to start looking for your G2 grandparents.

Comments

Can I ask one question based on your assumption that we may be from another Kinsman branh which might be Kingsman etc etc. There are no Kinsman/Kingsman who arrived from Englanfd in the date ranges we are searching - basically English people arrived here since 1820 and we went right up to 1888 when my grandfather was born (also I am told he may have been born 1886) so we looked at the dates and variations of the surname. But there is nothing.

 

I am willing to take the y-DNA test as this would show a lot, but I need to have details. Can you provide this to me?

I am sure there is a link with "George Whitfield" as he is the only Kinsman I could find with a lasting history in South Africa and it seems there are no other Kinsman family line in South Africa, unless off course they slipped in without any records.

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Can I ask if you know of any other y-DNA from other South African Kinsman's as without this the comparison would be worthless.

 

Can I also ask what do you have on the file of GW Kinsman. I have seen sons being added who were not there before - where did that come from. Do you have a complete list of sons as is recently known?

I would like to see any information which I could connect to his sons to see if any one of them are my great grandfather.

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Craig

Not all the migrations appear on shipping manifests. I know of at least one other Kinsman (William Henry of Madron, emigrated 1882) and Kingman (James, from Dorset, emigrated about 1850) who were definitely in SA in your timeframe but who I haven't found on any shipping lists. There are probably more who I haven't found yet. I have published a list with details on my website at

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kingsman/fragments/south_africa/home.html

That webpage has a link at the top to my DNA results pages which will show you what is required and also where we have got to.

One possible lead - in your first post you mention that your Grandad had a brother called Joe. Is he possibly the Joseph Kinsman who died in Transvaal in 1944, married to Alice Cadwell who died there in 1954? Their estate papers might have some useful information if you can track them down.

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No other yDNA from SA that I've seen, but the point is that I have a database of yDNA of Kin(gs)man mainly from England (some from the USA) with which to compare. Unfortunatley, I do not have a marker for the George Whitfield Kinsman line yet, but I'm ever hopeful of getting one.

This link takes you to the current state of my knowledge of George Whitfield Kinsman and his descendants

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kingsman/kinsman/cornwall/indiI1380.html

By my count 6 sons and 2 daughters. Not one of them can be guaranteed as his child from birth or baptism records - I have found none. The only record I have found which has proof positive is the application of GWK junior for his father's job after he died in 1884. I know that GWK senior left a will - that may give proof positive of the relationships, but I've only seen the note of probate, not the will itself.

The tree that I have published is only to the best of my knowledge, but it does show all of the sources that I've used in coming to the model that I have.

More information is always welcome.

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1) Where is the link to Joseph Kinsman you found records of his estate?

2) What was your basis to conclude those were GW Kinsman's sons if you have no link?

3) If you have no comparison to benchmark my DNA  how do we do this? Will the DNA just not be a waste of time or just the foundation for a new benchmark for later Kinsman's and not be of value for me now.

4)  If my dad and myself do y-DNA will that help or is both of us worthless. i.e only need one. Sorry to say it like this but he is 84 and we must decide before he is gone and it is lost forever.

5)  How can I reach you other than this way - do you have an email - mine is

craig@kinsman.co.za

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Craig

I have sent a reply to your e-mail, but just in case your server rejects it as spam then this is a copy:

1. The information on Joseph Kinsman and his wife came from a website called ancestry24.com They closed for business in February 2013 and their records have since been purchased by ancestry.com I have not yet seen their databases appear on ancestry but their publicity says that that is the intent. They were in a database called "Transvaal Deceased Estates Index 1855 - 1976". I have never tried to get a copy of a will in South Africa, but assume you have a probate office same as the UK and that old wills are available from them at a cost.

 

This is the link that I sent before:

 

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kingsman/fragments/south_africa/home.html

 

If you click on that page where it says "Unlinked People" you will get a list of Kinsman related South Africans that I know of, but have not been able to link anywhere to my trees. It may be worth you browsing that list in case there are names you recognise as being part of your family. If you do, please let me know.

 

This link:

 

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kingsman/fragments/south_africa/indiI19.html

 

goes direct to the page that has Joseph and his wife. As you can see, the only information I have for them is the probate references.

 

 

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2. Links between the children listed as those of GWK are in the majority no more than best guesses based on names, ages, locations and professions. Some are more certain than others. In decreasing order of confidence I would places these as:

 

George Whitfield - 100%, 1884 reference to his job application as postmaster to succeed his father.

Andrew Guyse - 95+%, named for GWK's father

Farrar - 80+%, names of his children

Lawrence - 70+%, witness at the wedding of Frances Elizabeth (AGK's daughter)

Thomas - uncertain, age and location only

Eliza - uncertain, age and location only

William - uncertain, age and location only

Sarah - uncertain, age and location only

 

Much of the information I've used came from Roger Fisk, great-grandson of Farrar Kinsman, which I have then added to and cross referenced to the sources that I've found.

 

3. The DNA test is completely uncertain until you've had it done. Sorry, but there is no way of predicting of whether it will come up with a direct match with one that's been done already or turn out a completely new result. Even if it is a new result then it is not wasted. The first person to have their's tested in our group was a Kinsman in the USA - no match with anybody until about five years later when I persuaded a cousin of mine (Kingsman from New Zealand) to have his done.  They matched 32 markers out of 37 and proved a link that none of us believed before.

 

4. Very good point about you and your Dad. Quite pointless to check both of you and better to have his done rather than yours because his is one generation earlier than yours and therefor has one generation less opportunity for changes.

 

If you do decide to to it, then I'd suggest that you join our Kinsman group at ftDNA, not that it's hugely cheaper, but it will save you $20. The link is:

 

https://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Kinsman

 

Derrick